Vote your principles
Posted by Robbie53024 13 years, 7 months ago to Politics
Compelling argument as to why voting for Paul or Johnson or not voting at all is not a vote on principle.
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Thanks.
Some additional things to consider:
For what it is worth, which party platform is preferable overall? Who do you want nominating Supreme Court justices in the next four years? Are you comfortable with Biden being one heartbeat away from the presidency for four more years? Considering the media’s role as a check in our system and the enabling/ preference they show for Obama, who will likely receive that necessary check over the next four years?
Respectfully,
O.A.
Biden scares me as much as Obama. O has an agenda and is transparent, B is a tool, but an affable tool. He can be lead in any direction and is such a baffoon that people don't take him seriously.
I pray that Romney has sufficient support to overcome the margin of fraud. Hearing reports of coach busses from Illinois parked in hotel lots all along the Wisconsin southern border. I'm a poll watcher, so tomorrow will be very interesting.
Mitt Romney is almost identical to Barack Obama on every issue. To call Mitt Romney a capitalist is a joke. He made his profits through Bain Capital by pull not through production. I think Ayn Rand would be ashamed of the ‘two choices’ we have for president this season. The libertarian movement is growing; from within the republican party, and from the outside also. It is only a matter of time now. I doubt that a Romney presidency will do much if anything to alter the Bush/Obama agenda of big government, wars and bailouts. A free market must be supported by a free society. Unfortunately both Mitt Romney and Barack Obama have shown a track record for ignoring the constitution and crippling the free market through taxation, regulations and borrowing. I will be one of ‘the small drops’ who votes third party to start a counter revolution against the looters of the republican party (Paul Ryan AKA Mr Auto Bailout included) and the moochers of the democrat party.
One thing to ask yourself is this; “what if we were given the choice of Romney to pit us against each other, to make us think that Romney is for free markets, so that we’ll subdue the real freedom movement of libertarian/republican candidates like Gary Johnson and Ron Paul, so that the powers that be can continue to push their power grabbing and looting agendas without real opposition?”
From an unbiased and literal standpoint, using facts and figures, Romney and Obama are almost one and the same. Yes, vote on principles, but not for the lesser of two evils.
I think the deciding factor will be the senators and congressmen we elect. That is where the Tea Parties and Objectivist supporters can really make a huge difference.
If we get a good number of tea party republicans an perhaps a Libertarian or two in the senate and the house.
Which of these two men may be able to be persuaded to not veto legislation that would actually decrease the size and scope of government, and which would do all in his power to stop it?
A vote for Johnson is likely a vote for Obama rather than a vote for Johnson, and a vote for Obama is a vote to Veto anything small government that might make its way out of congress.
Romney might know how to abuse capitalism, but he also supports laws which would destroy it, in the same way that Obama would.
The libertarians including myself will never vote for such an unprincipled man.
A vote for Johnson is not a vote for Obama. 1 + 1 is not 3 A vote for Johnson is a vote for Johnson.
Do you really think Romney would veto anything to limit government? As governor he expanded Massachusetts debt. He said he would have signed the NDAA, he supports the patriot act. Romneycare is the blueprint for Obamacare. This same Obamacare which was passed by the supreme court by a deciding vote from justice Roberts who was appointed by Bush; a republican.
This is not about left vs right. It’s about freedom vs totalitarianism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZLqsRqKF...
A=A and facts are facts.
You will get Romney or Obama for a president. No other choice exists. You can only vote for or against these two. A vote any other way will only effect which of these two will win. So you wish to vote against Romney, that is your choice and I do not begrudge you it, but face the facts that voting thus makes it more likely we get Obama, especially if you live in state where it is close.
We know Obama wants to push us well past totalitarianism to either Socialism or Fascism. I am not convinced which. We know that is his goal.
Romney's goal is to be president. I do not know for sure what he will do, but I do think that he may be able to be shaped.
If we fix this right it has to come from congress first, or we are no longer constitutional.
Which of the two possible presidents is most likely to allow the legislative branch to fix anything and which is likely to block them?
Vote your principles, I have no problem with that and would expect nothing less. I will be voting mine when I cast a vote for Romney. Not becuase I think he shares my principlles but becuase facts are facts and I will not have to state that I allowed the Marxist/Fashist/Socialist enemy of the state back into the presidency because I thought this guy that did not have a chance of an ice cube in hell to win was better. If I voted for Johnson I would be voting in a way likely to help elect a man that wants to be king of the United states. I cannot allow 4 more years on a rocket towards that goal. If you can vote for Johnson because if you pull enough away from Romney in voting for Johnson we will get Obama.
A=A and you cant change that no matter how noble your principles are. You must face the facts. Johnson is not a choice, rule him out. Out of those who can win, which man do you think will block us and which man will let us take some freedom back?
Gary Johnson is the only real choice if you want to strike the irons and start something new.
Libertarians and anyone who has unbiasedly researched both Romney and Obama will never vote for either one of them, so trying to convince us otherwise is a waste of time. I find it sad that so many people want the votes of the libertarians when they were so blatantly ignored during the primaries. The media ignored them, and the establishment republicans ignored them. And now they want our votes? We're supposed to toe the line? Who is really right on these issues? Are we not so frighteningly correct that we're ignored because of it? I think our issues are so intense, so far out there toward true capitalism and freedom that the establishment will ignore us entirely until we show a force in this election period in the form of Gary Johnson.
By all means, vote for Romney, I pray that it'll do some good, but facts state that he is a statist at heart, and is only interested in power. We'll see what happens.
I'll do what I can for liberty and free markets with my blog site and my comments on here, and I'll respect others decisions, but facts are facts and they must be stated if we are all to have informed votes.
You continue to Argue that Romney is bad too. I have not disagreed with that. What I have disagreed with is a vote for Jonson being well reasoned.
Do you think Jonson can win?
Reality and fact. We have a two party system. Attempting to change it through a third party has failed. We need a different approach. The tea party approach (change the republicans from within) seems to be doing more for us than a third party ever has. Our approach must be something that works.
If Gary Johnson gets 5% of the vote, we'll really turn the tables on the corrupt republicans, and really make the democrats squeal.
I'd like to see Rand Paul run in 2016, he's positioning himself as being more mainstream in the republican party, even though he's a lot more libertarian like his dad.
Obama's stance thus far has actually been fascist in nature, but socialism and fascism are both collectivist, so there's no need to spar on that issue. Will Obama bring back more collectivism? Sure, he'll try, but again I don't think Romney will do any different. And no there will be no return...but only if we let it. Since I see both candidates as the same, I'm working on building a solution to the two party monopoly. Our stances are different, but I will do whatever I can to limit their power over us, and return this country to a republic.
The question is, who will do better at getting us out of this mess and who will bring us closer to our objectives - I say that's Romney/Ryan.
A second Obama term is guaranteed to turn this country into a socialistic nightmare. There will be no return, at least not in our lifetime.
Wow...really?
When was the last time you went to an airport?
When was the last time you were forced to raise your arms like a criminal to go through a body scanner?
Yes those issues are about totalitarianism. We are perilously close to sealing the deal on the whole thing, and it was a bi-partisan act between both sides of the government.
Voting for a third party will not work, but I respect you choice to do so.
Ding ding ding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3U8ZrThR...
First off, that makes no sense, that's another reason why I see no difference in the two parties right now.
The democrats mooch and the republicans loot. The libertarians want true free markets.
Do what you like, vote for the lesser of two evils, or for the best showman of pragmatism, I don't care, but I'm going to stick to my principles, and vote with my principles, and I'm going to make a difference no matter how small. There are many objectivists and libertarians out there, and they are sick to the back teeth of the two party system. I will not be a part of it. In my eyes the guy in the original video is dead wrong, but that's my opinion. If you want to agree with him that's just fine, and good luck to you.
Mixed premises does not equal evil, you're right. Actions speak louder than words. For the wars in the middle east alone; Bush and Obama are evil. When you add that to the theft in the form of legislation and taxation, you really do have a mixed bag.
This conversation could go on for weeks. But I guess we'll just have to see what happens on Tuesday and go from there.
As for the lesser of two evils argument, Romney is not evil simply because he doesn't agree 100% with me, just as Bush wasn't evil, just as many candidates in the past (from both sides) weren't evil. Mixed premises does not equal evil. Finally, I refer to South Park and say the vote is always between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. Always. And the truth of the matter is, all the third party candidates are douches too. The vote will always be between people trying to pull things in the wrong direction. Always. No, that's not cynical, that's what people whose jobs are government do--try to use government to do things.
You replied: "I don't see the difference in either of them. Perhaps one is simply a better liar? But the evidence I've found shows that they are both as bad as each other."
:)
I could go on and on all the way up until Tuesday about why I think Romney's no good, and I could dig up all sorts of information to prove it. But you've already made your decision, and that's just fine. I've made mine, and everyone on this forum has made their minds up also.
I'm voting for Gary Johnson because I believe in free unregulated markets, and because I want to defend the constitution.
Yourself and many others have stated what you think Romney stands for, and I hope you're right.
I guess we'll see what happens next week.
It would go against my beliefs to vote for a warmongering fascist like Romney or Obama.
I'm trying something different.
Don't worry, the movement is growing. I don't expect to win in this election. The libertarian movement is a long term movement, and it is growing leaps and bounds.
Both Gary Johnson and Ron Paul started out in the republican primaries at the beginning of the year, and both were shunned. Romney was practically picked for us by the establishment and the media. There are many dark forces at work who simply want to continue to push a power grabbing agenda which spans both sides of government. You can call the democrats and Obama socialists until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that the republicans are passing all the same legislation that the democrats have.
My vote will help propel my beliefs. I hope yours does the same.
Face it, there is no real Galt's Gulch (other than here, he he). There is no possibility of a "strike of the mind". AR pointed out the problem, but did not provide a viable solution.
If you really can't see any difference between Romney or Obama, then you seriously are in need of examining your observational capability.
I think if Obama gets back in we will complete the journey started when the federal government decided the continental rail was to big for the private industry.
We will have a fascist or communist America and Obama will get a third term, not as president of the United states, but likely as president of the fascist states of America.
I hope he does not win, and if he does I hope I am wrong. The only option left to us will be a second civil war and I think we should do everything we can to avoid that end.
The other thing to look at is Paul Ryan. I doubt that you can make any of your objections against him. And whom would you rather have waiting in the wings to move up, Ryan or Biden?
The Ron Paul movement was shunned by the GOP by established ‘good old boys’ who want to continue the merging of big government and big corporate agendas, which amounts to fascism. Personally I can’t see how electing more of the same will solve anything, but I understand why many people are willing to give it a shot after 4 years of Obama.
On the same note I think that Obama is as much a pawn as any other politician and that it’s all a grand scheme to get us to fight each other to quell the real liberty movement. But either way the liberty movement is growing, and many people are waking up. We’ll see what happens tomorrow. In many ways I hope Romney wins just to beat Obama, but at the same time I hope he doesn’t because I’m afraid the Tea Party will die off and people will go back to sleep. Pick your poison.
I hope also that the libertarians get a huge pull and it breaks the two party system for good. Ross Perot wasn’t part of the libertarian movement, so it didn’t spin off a new party. This time things are different.
Just because things have been a certain way for a hundred years, doesn’t mean we can’t do something different now.
"Innovators and creative geniuses cannot be reared in schools. They are precisely the men who defy what the school has taught them." – Ludwig von Mises
I guess my school of thought is completely different. I believe that I as an individual can change the world, and that drops have ripple effects.
Anyway; good luck to everyone tomorrow, we’ll see what happens. For the most part this thread has been a good debate.
No unfortunately there is no Galt's Gulch, and hence I won't be sitting out the vote.
No I do not see a difference between Romney and Obama. I do not see a difference because I have done enough research to find out that they're practically the same. The only way forward is to take over the republican party from the inside, and put pressure on the outside in the form of the libertarian movement. 5% of the vote breaks the two party stranglehold.
Voting for Mitt Romney out of fear of Obama may insure the very vision which you are working hard against. That is how similar the candidates are. If Romney does win, I hope he is everything you hope he is.
I think \that the things that you seem to attribute to Romney are leftist propaganda that he cannot refute or it will just provide ammunition to the left. For example, Romney often cites that teachers are not the problem, but teachers unions are. However, he has not come out forcefully about eliminating the Dpt of Ed because this would just be demagogued by the left as Republicans/Romney being against education. He also hasn't come out strongly against Pell grants, as this will again be demagogued, but it is the biggest cause of the accelerated increase in college costs.
I'm walking a fine line between republican and democrat attack ads, and actual intellectual videos from libertarians, capitalists and free thinkers. You really need an open mind to sift through all the crap out there, and it can be quite frustrating.
I understand how you feel, my job has been perilously close to being cut multiple times over the last couple of years. Our company was booming until Obama took office. But I know that Bush's actions helped lead to where we are now, and I don't see Romney helping out either. His actions at Bain Capital did indeed cripple many good companies and send jobs overseas. I see Romney as a looter of the highest caliber, not a producer.
I think we're heading for an economic collapse either way. Don't vote out of fear. If you truly believe Romney will make a difference, cast your vote for him, and we'll see what happens.
Either way, take care of your family the best that you can. One way or another we're in for a bumpy road ahead.
This post should be sufficient.
Thanks,
Scott
If the Libertarian party can get 5% of the popular vote, it will allow them ballot access in all states without petitions and qualify them for matching funds in the next election. That's worth voting for. First the R's tell us not to vote Libertarian because it won't matter and now they tell us to not vote Libertarian because it does matter.
They assume that we are conservatives. Nothing could be further from the truth. The conservatives in this country want to dictate your morality and interfere with your personal decisions. We are not one of them and we shouldn't act that way.
You're either one of them, or one of us. Unfortunately, you're bargaining with looters and that makes you one of them. I do not view their claim over me, similarly I'm not voting for the same policies that the incumbent presents or the challenger neither. P. Ryan might have read Ayn Rand, but you should be ashamed of yourself for questioning your conviction to sound, limited government. If you want my vote for Romney, you'll have to steal it, as I'm not offering it as if I have a matter of choice. A is A. A looter is a looter, regardless of the party line. Sorry GOP, you chose wrong by passing up Ron Paul. Re-read Ayn Rand sometime, this video makes me sick.
Signed,
John Galt
PS - Don't disgrace the people who have served to try and get a sympathy vote. Poor Ayn is rolling in her grave having Romney/Ryan even associated with Galt's Gulch.
I do remember conversations with OA prior to then.
Jim
But, everyone has their beliefs and must act accordingly.
In response to your last comment which includes this;" Let me say it differently, your attempting to apply your principles in a vacuum, completely dropping all context to do so"
My applying principles into a 'vacuum' is better than dropping my principles entirely.
To quote the movie which we are all on here for:
Mr Small: "times have changed, you can't afford to live by rigid principles anymore"
Mr Rearden: "My steel wouldn't get built without rigid principles"
Finally; how far are you willing to let the government go in stripping you of your constitutional rights and taking your property at gunpoint through legislation after legislation, tax after tax?
Does it really matter if it's the republicans or the democrats? I seem to recall the republicans creating an awful lot of job killing legislation last time they were in power.
What you do is up to you. The founding fathers were stark raving mad for standing up against Britain. Perhaps the millions of libertarians out there are mad for standing up against the corrupt two party system. But there are millions of us, and the Ayn Rand Objectivist movement is growing. People are waking up.
Good luck in the polls, if Romney wins, I hope he is everything you wish him to be.
Now, as a Libertarian, that would mean that either the right or left should be an equally viable home, but the left has turned collectivist. Are many of the candidates on the right advocates of individual rights and constitutionalism? No. But they are much less collectivist than the left, thus I choose to work through them to make the changes that I desire. To allow my vote to advance the collectivists out of some sense of "purity" in choosing a Libertarian candidate, especially when that candidate has absolutely no chance of winning, is absurd.
Wisconsin elected an independent thinker to the senate in Ron Johnson. We nearly were able to get another independent thinker in Eric Hovde, but the brain dead voted Tommy Thompson just due to name recognition. Tommy is old, and likely only has a term or two left in him. We've elected a governor who rolled back taxes and broke the hold of the teachers union on the state budget. Result: The largest turn-around ever in a state budget, from deficit to surplus, and the largest payment into the state "rainy day fund" ever. Next year we will push for reducing taxes further so that we the people can have something to put in our own rainy day funds.
Congratulations, Ohio is doing similar things. I think the local elections are far more important than the national ones, for reasons I've already mentioned.
Everyone has to make up their own minds. I see a bigger picture for years down the road, so I don't see my vote wasted. I'll be voting for conservatives and libertarians in local elections depending on who has the best message/strategy/track record and whoever can win to beat out the brain-dead socialists.
Good luck to you tomorrow, a part of me wants Romney to win just to beat Obama, but we shall see what happens.
However I think Romney is only being "packaged" liberally so they can push voters to switch their votes from Democrat to Republican.
His campaign is very Democrat/Republican. I only hope if he gets in he drops his democrat line of bull, and acts more republican.