Is Patriotism Irrational? This article makes a compelling point.

Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 6 months ago to Culture
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"According to Aristotle, humanity in full flourishing requires the goods that a political community affords—the materials goods of sustenance, shelter, protection by an organized defense, and the less quantifiable goods of education, the bonds of friendship, the opportunity for contemplation. Patriotism is the recognition of a debt.”

"Thus, patriotism is an expression of gratitude toward the country that provides these goods, much like the filial affection one should have toward one’s parents."

"Now, that said, Deneen is most assuredly an advocate of what might be called a “prudential patriotism.” He warns against an unreflective loyalty to one’s country that can result in support for “ignoble acts… at odds with virtue.” Patriotism certainly does not require that U.S. students should be taught to turn a blind eye to the evils that flow from their country with a shrug and a drawl of “Murica.”"

"The other extreme, however, is the ungrateful cosmopolitan—from the Greek for “citizen of nowhere”—who enjoys the benefits of a political community while returning the favors with only hostility and mistrust."

Does the above paragraph sound familiar?

I think in America, we definitely owe a debt to our forefathers, the idea and ideal inwhich created this country and we owe a debt to those that have stayed true to these principles; but, in no way, should we patronize those in government, in our name, that do unlawful harm to us and others...it is they that have betrayed our founding principles and therefore owe US a debt in the commission of their crimes...but, in spite of them, I still will gladly pay allegiance to our flag and to that which it stands.


All Comments

  • Posted by Owlsrayne 8 years, 6 months ago
    I consider myself a patriot to basic American principles that are stated in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I believe all progressives are traitors to this country.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's ironic that many in the intelligence community that self righteously condemn Snowden for betraying his duty to protect the nations secrets are "leaking" classified information like a sieve for their own political purposes. Snowden acted out of principle, horrified that the NSA was invading people's lives without legal cause. I believe he deserves a fair, impartial hearing, so people can decide if he acted in the spirit of the Constitution. I believe he did.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I would suggest testing the principle of an oath to the Constitution vs to a political hierarchy - what is judgement (of each individual here) on Snowden? He has clearly defended the Constitution and has clearly went against the political hierarchy? Half the country wants him executed. Where does this issue puts each of you?
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I spent two years in Greece and Cyprus. While I don't consider myself an expert, Greek from a linguistic standpoint isn't very difficult to learn. The funniest question I always get about it is "So do you speak Latin?" I just have to laugh and explain to them that Latin is a dead language - noone really knows how to pronounce real Latin anymore! ;) Latin is useful to study because many words in English, Spanish, and French originated from Latin. What I have fun with is that in knowing Greek, you can speak with doctors pretty intelligently, since most medical language is Greek. Diabetes melitus is one such example. My father-in-law had been Type I since he was 16 and when I told him that melitus meant honey he wouldn't believe me until he looked it up.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Nice to see that we share something that helps to bridge the many gaps in our two sets of opinions. I taught myself classical Greek from old grammars in order to work in numismatics. Mostly, I relied on the Cambridge dual language editions, but I checked their interpretations against lexicons in order to tease out meanings. For me, the deepest dive was to understand the "crime of Diogenes" who "debased" or "counterfeited" the coinage of Sinope before coming to Athens. I even have a stater of Sinope signed DIO.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I was never forced nor propagandized into pledging allegiance...it was explained to us, why we do it and even at the young age, I understood on some level.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Hello freedomforall,
    Those words ("Thus, patriotism...") are translations from Aristotle. In his time that was also more true, just as it was for us in 1776. Aristotle could not have imagined the government largess... I am with you. I honor the founding principles and those fighters and Founders that gave their all, so that they might be made manifest and govern. That is patriotism to me. There is a point where excessive patriotism turns to jingoistic nationalism.
    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    To me, our country provides the protection of rights guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution.

    Some may disagree with this premise, but I am still of the type who believes in a glass being half full, rather than half empty.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It is more like, patriotism is the recognition that the country that one lives in is primarily good. Pretend patriotism is irrational. Forcing children to be patriotic is just evil and will get the USA nothing better than did the Nazi and Communist countries in the long run. All the pretend patriotism for sports events are irrational though some feel a real patriotic emotion but need not the ritual. Force or threat of force will not produce a country of patriots, only liberty has the possibility of doing so.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Dead on...The ideas, concepts and principles inherent in the teachings worthy of profound appreciation...that's how I would explain "worship" in a conscious way.
    Loyalty, perhaps, would include the practice of those ideas, concepts and principles.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Worship - similar to loyalty - can be ideas-based, person-based or even object-based. I would suggest that all the same caveats which apply as above to patriotism/loyalty also apply to worship. I would also suggest that this is one of the true problems with many religious organizations in today's world - an ideological adherence to an organization without true adherence to fundamental principles.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No, not government...the system, laws and culture. Government has seen to it we no longer have a system, laws or culture worthy of patriotism, so we value the original idea.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 6 months ago
    This is just another example of the fallacy of composition. The credit for our (and our ancestors') success belongs to individual entrepreneurs, but here are idiots telling us to give that credit to government.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 6 months ago
    Critics make the same mistake about American patriots that they do about our military. They assume our dedication is to territory and political hierarchy, blind and unthinking. The military takes an oath to defend the Constitution, not any political figure, and patriotism is a belief in the principles ingrained in that document. The Constitution is the distillation of the finest, most ethically principled beliefs the Founders could instantiate in workable form, and has been the foundation of our success. People make mistakes, and commit criminal acts, and those are blots on our history, but they don't reflect the intent of our Constitution. Real patriotism is a passionate belief that our republic represents the most demonstrably successful path to individual freedom in history.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 6 months ago
    I think that one of the points the article is trying to make is simply to call into question what one is loyal to. Is one loyal to the principles upon which one operates, or is one loyal to specific people? If one is patriotic (and loyal) to the principles of the Founding of this Nation, I would argue that those are intellectually and logically defensible because they are unchanging. If one is patriotic (and loyal) to say political parties or individual members (Trump/Obama), then I would argue that this is not an intellectual patriotism, but rather a fairly impassioned and personal connection to the individual or party. I think we see a lot of that in today's world and I think it is driving much of the ideological divide in this nation.
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