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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 10 months ago
    Any philosophy, in order to be effective must deal with reality. The only way that any form of anarchy in any of its modifications can work is with a race of mature and rational persons. Unfortunately, that is not the human race. Some day in the far future perhaps, but neither today nor tomorrow will that be true. Objectivism deals with humanity as it exists today, with goals to be achieved as signposts on the road to rational maturity. The goals are achievable within our vision of tomorrow. If your object is a future without the need for government, then be an objectivist until you can actually see that goal on the horizon. It may take a while, so don't hold your breath.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 10 months ago
      Herb, I agree with your broad claim as more people are more rational, we need less (external) government. That said, I do point out that YOU have the opportunity and ability to live a rational life in an irrational society. I trust that you are somehow gainfully employed in market activities of your own. You are neither a burglar nor an IRS agent -- even though it seems that most of the people around us apparently are. Even so, human society is improving. You expect long-term gains. When the Normans conquered England, they consolidated their hold by going into the countryside, capturing anyone who could oppose them, systematically slitting their throats and carting them off to a mass grave. There are still places on Earth where you can get that done, but England is not one of them.

      Science and commerce share deep roots. Eventually, the rational-emoirical (objectivist) scientific method will be more deeply accepted by more people.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 10 months ago
        Mike: As to your 2nd paragraph, I hope you're right. As to my status, I am retired, and I spend my time writing, learning, and being a gadfly. Over my longish life, I've been a musician, a retailer, a photographer, and a publisher and editor. It has given me a view of ways to earn that lots of folks have not had the opportunity to have. I've been an A.R. fan for 66 years. I am older than dirt.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 10 months ago
    The AnCaps are trying to short cut philosophy. The NAP makes no sense without property rights. Freedom cannot be protected in a world that accepts the irrational.

    Locke's starting point "that you own yourself" is much more profound and useful than NAP. The AnCaps want us to forget Calculus and return to geometry.

    AnCaps are intellectually lazy and dangerous
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 10 months ago
    "They ... they.... they...." with no citation of source. "Would... should... could..." a plethora of modal auxiliaries without empirical evidence.

    If the free market allows "anything" then anyone could make billions of dollars with huge rip-off schemes for perpetual motion energy. And the world has no shortage of such swindles, from the South Sea Bubble to Florida Real Estate to Bernie Madoff. Let people do whatever they want and the parasites will enrich themselves by grinding everyone else into poverty. Just look at the world today.

    But we know that is not true because reality requires reason which mitigates such silliness. While foolery exists, genius succeeds. The marketplace impels toward excellence.

    In point of fact, if you look at the world today, you will find free market defense agencies, Securitas, G4S, AlliedBarton, Guardsmark,... And you will find arbitration written into your contracts for your mortgage, your credit cards, your car loan, your employment (especially if you are a contractor)... And those contracts specify _which laws_ are to govern the interpretation of the terms. Multinational corporations shop for laws. It is the only way that a manufacturer in Germany can buy parts from China for a product sold in the United States. Read your contracts. You live in one state. Your bank is located in another. The credit card company is in a third. They all specify the laws they want.

    A hundred years ago, a self-appointed committee of jurists created the Uniform Commercial Code to reconcile the conflicts in contract law. Read any purchase order: it says one thing. Read any sales invoice: it says something else. How do you bring them together when something goes wrong? Today, the UCC has been included in part or in whole by various US state laws. It still exists on its own.

    The essay is correct: this is the way the world works today. Some governments are better than others. Some businesses are better than others. Some people are better than others. Everyone is better on some days than on others. You cannot legislate it, mandate it, predict it, demand it, or avoid it.

    These theories are all just explanatory filters. They say less about the way the world is (or should be) and much more about the persons who invent them.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 10 months ago
    Contrary to what the author asserts, we are not in a state of Anarcho-Capitalism. We are in a state of crony capitalism, a predecessor to a Fascist state, wherein the powerful corporations are able to buy government support. Real Anarcho-Capitalism implies an "every company for itself", with any state element avoiding interference with the market. In such an environment, entrepreneurs with superior skills would have a more level playing field to challenge the established firms that have become complacent.

    Any license I was willing to give the author went out the window when he ranted about allowing a government that permitted "infant genital mutilation", obviously referring to male circumcision. The link between uncircumcised males and female cervical cancer has been reliably established, and I'm astounded that women's rights groups haven't demanded mandatory circumcision.

    The very arrogance of the web site name tells it all, implying the owner has a superior intellect that can judge the views of his inferiors. I don't like the precept of MENSA, as I found most in that group to be what I call "educated idiots", lacking common sense and possessing unduly inflated egos.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      ok, a buch of discrediting there doctor, let's stay on the arguments. In an anarcho system, the strong private defense arbiter can easily swallow the weaker one, leading individuals to purchase fractions of rights' protection. Some rights may be protected as you may afford them. That is not consistent with NAP thinkers who assume some basis in agreement. Wealthy criminals can afford better protection than poor individuals. How do you address that problem?
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 10 months ago
        I'm not an anarchist, so the anarcho-capitalism idea seems either naive or unrealistically idealistic. As we've found, without some form of independent barriers, a strong entity can prevent fresh competition (as is being carried out now with big corporations buying government support). The idea of establishing self-serving defense organizations to somehow overcome corporate greed for power is unrealistic, so how to fine tune a lousy idea makes little sense.

        Sometimes the government makes a (usually ineffectual) effort to reign in ruthless corporate entities. As far back as the Grover Cleveland administration, some attempt to curtail hostile destruction or theft of entrepreneurs new ideas was attempted, being viewed as harmful to the free market. Unfortunately, the half-life of such efforts is brief, given the opportunity to corrupt politicians to allow corporations to buy their way out of compliance.

        Without abandoning the idea of representative government, there's a lot we can do to gum up the payoff game. Term limits for all political offices, including the judiciary is a good start. Banning the acceptance of any gifts, of any value from any source that could benefit from government largesse would help. Only then would I begin to trust government oversight to protect the free market.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
          I would add de -centralization of federal givt geographically and more deoraved heart convictions. Public officials who have no oversight by separation of powers. All of the govt agencies which came into existance for the most part in the 20 th century. All of those agencies should be abolished or severely limited in scope.
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          • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 10 months ago
            Rolling back Federal overreach, and strengthening state government responsibilities is probably easier than trying to resection Federal responsibilities. Restructuring the tax codes to reduce the Federal bite is a start. Weaning the states off of "free" Federal monies will be painful, but doable.

            Cutting the faceless government bureaucracy can be simple, if we elect people with the will to cut the budgets of Federal agencies. Reducing or eliminating the budgets will reduce the number of those who brutalize the American public without consequence.

            President Wilson's fantasy of the apolitical, selfless government bureaucrat was behind the rapid growth of agencies. As we've seen, it also laid the path to an imperial Executive, able to conduct much Federal activity in defiance of the other branches of government.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 10 months ago
    There is no contradiction between the non-intervention principle and monopoly government IF the scope of said government is kept limited as it was in the US prior to 1900. Anarcho Capitalism is like the Articles of Confederation - good on paper but difficult to implement. The Constitution, as written and followed until 1900 for the most part, is the way things ought to be.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      One thing that anarchos need to acknowledge is that they are not for whatever the market will bear in terms of defense agencies. They do not allow for a monopoly on force (defense) nor do they allow for whatever the market will bear. In conclusion, like an Objectivist, they must convince large numbers of people moral bounds, which they have refused to define or root in a logical structure save no initiation of force.

      As well, they do not address the problem of competing defence agencies, with regards to strength or representation. The example given in the article of how a defense agency grown monopolistic through wealth compared to smaller defence agencies representing those with less means has no solution. The larger defense agencies will prevail simply by their participants ignoring the rights of the less strong agencies. This can of course become a problem in even our current justice and law enforcement systems. The wealthiest neighborhoods influence local authorities for more protection than less wealthy neighborhoods and large companies often take risks that individuals or smaller companies will not sue because they will be outspent in taking the case to trial.
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      • Posted by Danno 9 years, 10 months ago
        In a truly free market (no government cronyism), it is hard to build monopolies since competition on price and quality and pay would make that hard. All theory though. America's founding was unique and now it is an old country susceptible to the same decaying forces.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
          I agree with most of your statement.
          it is impossible to build "monopoly" without government grant, which is a violation of natural rights and gives a competitor exclusive access to a market. Socialists have attempted to redefine what a monopoly is, based on the flawed concept of perfect competition, which has never existed, is completely incompatible with property rights and incompatible with economic growth. In fact, the original concept was created by a religious professor at the University of Chicago to describe a perfect "altruistic" market.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 10 months ago
        they do not address the problem of competing defense agencies - I assume you mean national defense. That is the weak link in anarcho-capitalism, in my view. It depends entirely on a universal acceptance. Any nation that chose to dominate their neighbor(s) through use of force would be able to be successful, as they would not abide by any arbitration mechanisms. Likewise, it is unlikely that other neighbors would partake in common defense, as the costs are high. You end up with a world of Neville Chamberlains trying to appease a tyrant.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
          The citizens of a Muslim state are willing to cede any number of human rights, yet they are recognized as sovereign by the United Nations. China blatantly ignores world patent laws, so definitely buyer beware because there is little recourse. "whatever the market will bear" is meaningless without rule of law and a philosophical foundation of what constitutes natural rights.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
          I am even talking about business arbitration. As MM points out, there are many private operations worldwide which provide these services and those contracting agree to terms. However, the elephant in the room are the national governments which must be adhered to first. So actually having the ability to criminally adjudicate does not fall on those organizations.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 10 months ago
        The best example I can think of that would be comparable to a private competing defense agency would have been the Pinkertons, infamous for bringing down the strikers at Carnegie's steel plant.
        That didn't work out so well.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 10 months ago
          No, professor, you seem to have an incomplete reading of that one event; and little context for the longer, wider, and deeper history of the company. Today, Pinkerton is owned by Securitas, headquartered in Stockholm, traded publicly as three different corporations, present in over 30 nations with over 300,000 employees and never firing a shot at the Number One agency in the world today, G4S, owner of the American "Wackenhut" label with over 400,000 employees in over 30 nations. We are talkiing of armies the size of France's and Germany's without the actual bloodshed of those nations' armies. You need to do more research.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 10 months ago
            I wasn't making a comment about the longer, wider, and deeper history of the Pinkertons, but your point is well taken. I was referring just to the one incident and knew about their founding, but not anything about them since 1900.

            Wackenhut used to be the security firm tasked with letting me through the fence daily for the year that I worked with on a project (before reading AS) that would not be approved of by Gulch citizens. I had no problem with Wackenhut during that year.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
          the Bow Street Runners, East India Company, privateers,to the earliest of times, private contracts for protection and negotiation existed. Force or the threat of it was always the final arbiter
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 10 months ago
            As usual, I learned something here. Thanks, khalling.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
              ultimately, all of these systems existed under the umbrella of the rule of law-common law in Britain. IT was not perfect by any means but still, it was better than most systems.Implementation vs exact laws. I challenge those who think the individual private defense agencies would work without this umbrella. I guess the closest I can come to the lack of umbrella and people for the most part sharing common goals for producing would be the settling of the western territories. (there are other examples) here, the umbrella of the federal govt was distant. Sheriffs were privately hired. Depending on your location to a fort, private systems were in charge and everyone did not have the luxury of the federal enforcement mechanism.
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              • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 10 months ago
                I am not sure that "sheriffs were privately hired." In America, the sheriff is a county officer of a court, elected by the voters. As far as I know under most state constitutions, the county sheriff's number one duty is running the county jail. Traffic enforcement and law enforcement in general come after that. You seem to be alluding to the frontier West. A federal territory had a federal marshal. Absent a legal county, there could be no legal sheriff. We understand that towns elected sheriffs or maybe the merchants hired gunmen, but we need more than "Gunsmoke" and "Bonanza" if we are going to find the facts here. Also, I am not sure what a federal fort would do for you except protect you from Indians. Posse comitatus (1878) prevented the army from engaging in law enforcement.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
                  "It was not uncommon for entrepreneurs, former gunslingers, criminals and political appointees of the local government to band together and form police squads. This was how legendary lawmen such as Wyatt Earp and his brothers, Bat Masterson, and Luke Short got their start. Many of them were simply guns-for-hire." Legalsource 360
                  well, if we are considering early settlers of the west we are looking at the Santa Fe Trail 1820s and The Oregon Trail (1840s) long before 1878.
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              • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 10 months ago
                khalling, you miss the forest for the trees. The very existence of common law is the "mechanical engineering" of private force protection. Private forces had no other context but common law.

                Here in America, private and public policing went back and forth. Public police were the agents of the wealthy, leaving the poor on their own; so the merchants in those neighborhoods hired their own guards. Then, the police were democratized and rich people hired their own guards. So, too, in London, were the Bow Street Runners made irrelevant by the Bobbies. Note, of course, as is famous, that the London Metropolitan was _unarmed_ unless circumstances warranted arms. In modern times, gangs outside the English tradition (IRA, Muslims) forced the Bobbies to arm. Even so, when they bust down your door, they announce themselves, "Armed police!" It is a cogent point.
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  • Posted by Lucky 9 years, 10 months ago
    A very good essay, it needs more than the 10 mins I have given it so far.

    They may be a few others on this site who like me do not like the existence, let alone the paying, of taxes. Yet a government that relies only on voluntary payments would have several difficulties such as resisting significant aggression from outside.
    There is a concept in economics that relates- the free rider principle.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 10 months ago
    Maphesdus wrote: "No one becomes a billionaire by selling perpetual motion machines." That is exactly the point, Maph. Although some people became hundredaires or thousandaires, it is an overblown accusation, divorced from reality, even from the reality of actual scams and schemes. Yet, that is by analogy, the claim of the anti-market people that _ALL_ protective agencies "would" (could, should) engage in a perpetual war-of-all-against-all, when in fact, few ever do, and those that do have become governments and abandoned businesses.

    The protective services of Ford Motor Company and General Motors worked in the same cities, the same neighborhoods, without ever firing upon each other -- or their own workers (even labor disputes being limited in force). Minarchists claim that that was because they were under the dominion of a monopoly government... but that same monopoly government is incapable of stopping gangs such as M13 and the Zetas... So, what is the explanation that subsumes both sets of facts? To me, it is a commitment within the persons involved to engage in business or to engage in aggression.

    Incentives matter. However, culture is deeper. Changing culture via incentives seems to require means and methods that are not well understood. These objecto-could-be-anarchos and their mini-objecto-would-be-governors all argue _should_ (everyone should do as I say) without ever referring to the actual facts of human action.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 10 months ago
    There are many promising aspects of anarcho-capitalism but it is based on a moral system that does not exist. Thus, it cannot be successful.

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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 10 months ago
    Motivated by several of khalling's questionable claims, I took down a book, THE LAW GOES WEST by Forbes Parkhill (Western Sage Press, 1956). Parkhill was an autodidact who taught writing at the University of Denver. This book came from his discovery of two troves of unclassified judicial records from the territorial days of the places we now call Colorado. It was rough and ready justice, to be sure. However, some of those who rushed to Pike's Peak for gold in 1856 were lawyers. They set up courts in the methods described by Wolf Devoon in his "Constitution of Government for Galt's Gulch" reviewed in the Gulch here: http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/9f... According to Devoon, courts are properly the creations of lawyers.

    (Forbes Parkhill biography here:
    http://kenoshakid.wikispaces.com/Forbes+...
    His movie credits here:
    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0662751/)

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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      cool. quit calling my claims-were they? questionable. I said "hired guns" I am well familiar with the santa fe trail and Bent's Fort. Thanks for the Devon reference again. "courts are the creation of lawyers." Courts are the creation of the mercantile class. Again, you are at 1856. I was discussing the 1820s-40s. Criminal cases were due to govt. To the extent that non-commercial issues were adjudicated, was an attempt to keep the govt from being the judge, jury and executioner.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 10 months ago
    Would anyone here like to articulate the Non-Aggression Principle? And distinguish it from the Non-Initiation-of-Force Principle? Are they the same, or different?
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    • Posted by Maphesdus 9 years, 10 months ago
      Non-aggression is pacifism. It means never using force ever under any circumstance, not even in self-defense. Non-initiation means force can be used, but only in retaliation. The term "Non-Aggression Principle" actually refers to the second of these two ideas. However, they both logically lead to anarchism, as a government cannot follow either principle without essentially castrating itself.
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  • Posted by Rex_Little 9 years, 10 months ago
    An ideal Objectivist government which did not initiate force even to collect taxes would be, in practice, no different from an ideal AnCap defense agency. And both ideals are abstractions which will never exist in practice.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      By definition, NAP assumes property rights without defining them. The result is that many run around denying prooerty rights. That either they are a monopoly or initiation of force. A system which voluntarily collected money for rights enforcement is not an abstraction but very possible to do.
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