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This is only a problem if you don't move beyond that when you actually meet them.
I think what you are confusing and overlooking to the point of absurdity is that Prager is not arguing at stopping at objectification and sexual exploitation. His point is that feminism attempts to confuse the natural (i.e. innate) attractions of men toward women by telling both men and women that these attractions are bad. Both men and women have a sexual drive they want to use, so they look for potential ways to engage that drive. That starts by identifying potential partners. It doesn't say it has to stop there - with people viewing each other solely as objects - but that it shouldn't be ignored either.
Men looking at women, women looking at men and all the myriad combinations that people are attracted to each other in.
As to what you say to someone, you have now met them and, as I said, if you don't move beyond that at that point it becomes a problem.
I've been waiting for all the objectification to start.
Did I join the wrong forum? Damn!
Everyone forms opinions about others, men or women, based on their looks. The problem is only if these initial impressions can not be displaced by real data and interactions. This initial information is not useless, but it is flawed. It is the same as worrying more about a big black guy in a hoodie an alley, than a slight white woman in a sundress. It is both natural (innate, healthy, viable offspring) and related to experience.
It would be foolish to completely set this aside. On the other hand, it is equally foolish and inappropriate to rely on it when better information is available.
It is quite clear in Objectivist psychology, that when we respond to physical good looks, we are making an aesthetic judgment. The person might turn out to be completely unlikeable in every other aspect. That judgement comes later. The first impression is one thing. Moral evaluation is another.
But that is not the same thing as objectification.
And Dennis Prager is wrong when he says that it is "natural" to be aroused by the sight of a leg, breast, or abdomen. We learn that. As I said below https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post... in equatorial cultures where clothing is scant or merely decorative - men and women are naked except for a necklace or bracelet - other cues lead to sexual arousal.
And Prager is wrong about what causes arousal or attraction. We do know from worldwide studies that most people prefer symmetrical features in others. Beyond that, what constitutes a sexual cue varies by culture. As I said below, Tibetan women often go bare-breasted but everyone wears boots. So, the men have foot fetishes. I have heard that the French think that Americans suffer from breast fixations.
Regardless of the turn-ons around the globe, it is not acceptable here and now to treat other people as objects.
I would take an Ian Anderson position on hot waitresses, perfume models, Daisy Duke or Daniel Craig wrt humor and social media. This is not the same.
"I have heard that the French think that Americans suffer from breast fixations."
That's probably because Europeans face the same desensitization you cite in the Tibetans. Their television advertising for soap almost exclusively features naked women showering - and they show everything. There are lingerie ads at bus stops and perfume ads in public places showing people in blatantly suggestive poses. And the postcards can be very X-rated. If one were to look at the difference in the two cultures, again, it comes down to desensitization: for men in France, a boob is ho-hum. American men aren't constantly bombarded by the same stimuli as the French men - there is still some mystery and excitement.
It's very much like the high created by drugs. At first, it only takes a little bit. Then desensitization starts to take hold and the addict starts requiring more and more of the drug to get the same effect. The brain is a vast and complicated chemical machine, but the studies about addiction and pleasure-center stimulation are pretty thorough.
"it is not acceptable here and now to treat other people as objects."
Again, people are a sub-set of the larger inclusive group known as objects. Should people be recognized and treated as people - a smaller set of the larger general classification known as objects? Absolutely. But you are falling prey to the very feminism Prager is pointing out by denying that men and women often look at each other based on the prospects of amorous activity. The very hook-up culture that has stormed America in the past 20 years is evidence that many people are objectifying the opposite sex. What makes these hook-ups of lesser quality than those of marriage falls exactly to the point you do have correct: that people shouldn't stop at the objectification and should explore the other attributes of their partner.
Recognize that in the century before capitalism, those jobs were held by men. Then ask yourself how you would react to hiring a man based on his looks, or his physical endowments.
"What already existed" was in fact what needed to be changed as people were liberated by capitalism.
That said, though, just as one counter-example, in an earlier time, if a machinist applied for a job the foreman was most interested in seeing the tools in the box that the applicant made for himself. That was the standard, not how good-looking he was. He might be; and it might give an advantage. But if he did not pass muster, good looks would not make up for a lack of machinery knowledge.
Again, I think that you and I are on the same page there. Where we disconnect is over the word "object." Responding physically to someone is not the same thing as de-humanizing them. That is what Dennis Prager is advocating.
And he is not ignorant. I believe that he understands full well what he is saying.
Capitalism indeed frees people to pursue their economic interests. Not sure how one equates that with sexual liberation, however.
As for the link between economic liberation and sexual liberation, it is all human action. If you do not perceive the connections in different expressions of individual freedom of action, my powers of persuasion might be too limited to explain it all in a few paragraphs.
Please cite the psychological studies you think support such a position. ALL the ones I've seen about men specifically state the opposite.
"And arousal is not objectification."
I think this is where you use a definition different than the rest of us - including Prager. Again, see point eight.
"As for the link between economic liberation and sexual liberation, it is all human action."
I think you're trying way too hard to over-simplify things. Every different portion of the economic market relies on different factors. No serious economist attempts to treat the automobile market the same way they treat the market for eggs (no pun intended).
From Wikipedia
I can only say that sexual chemistry is real . For both men and women ,heterosexual or homosexual. People have different tastes or different strokes for different folks. When Hollywood producers cast for movies they try to hire the most attractive people for many roles , not all but most. Because they are creating a voyeristic fantasy , a distraction and entertainment for the viewers. When fantasy collides with reality it is usually a disaster. See altruism.
Personally after 37 years of marriage to a smart, hard working , talented ,kind ,loving ,amazing , sexy, beautiful ,attractive women , I cannot and do not perform sexually with her if she is not into it. Luckily for me it is rare that she is not. The mystery in our relationship to me is that she finds me handsome. Note in her description I didn't say good eyesight.
For both of us our only marriage , we started at 22
for me and 21for her.
Do men ever outgrow objectifying women? Some do. Some don't. At a certain point with most males, capability surrenders to chronic aging and new hobbies are often espoused.
If you mean, do they daydream of intimacy with women, yes.
If you mean, that's all they do in the company of women, that depends on the man.
And then there's Francisco d'Anconia's theory of what a man finds sexually attractive...
Leftists make the most noise for issues pertaining to it and they ain't into reality in the first damn place.
As for my prehistoric reality, watch how allosaurs learn to respect females. You may want to scroll
this instructional video about halfway to get past the soup and salad and more into the meat and potatoes~
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9IjL...
Now, I do understand that the 'Darwinian' groups formed in the late 19th Century through today have worked hard at trying to make this dying off happen still, but at a much slower rate. Margaret Sanger aimed at 'colored folk' by physically removing their babies from the womb [abortion], others at those 'different' among us; first those that were not deemed normal, then those claimed as sick by cutting out their reproductive organs [sterilization] and now in a much more 'sneaky' fashion using pills and devices to stop or end pregnancy within 24 hours...
Still though the Brain wants what the Brain wants and that is too LIVE... so it does what every living organism does..attracts and get's attracted to the other organism that will help it procreate!
But, how in this PC world does it do this??? It turns on your sexual stimulants when you see an opposite life form; ie: man sees a woman, woman sees a man, both see each other...
its the way of life...live with it!
I think it comes down to what is a "sex object". I would think maybe the author means someone we're sexually attracted to, but #1 of his "eight truths" is it's normal for men to see people their sexually attracted to as sex objects. This implies that it's possible to be sexually attracted to someone without seeing her as a "sex object".
This article would make more sense to me if the author gave an example of sexual attraction with and without objectification.
The reason that straight guys are uncomfortable around gays is that they do not want another guy to think of them they way that they think of women.
But by your logic, there is nothing wrong with that. It is "natural." Well, I agree that it may be "natural" but so are many behaviors, such as aggression and predation, that we circumscribe in order to have civilization.
Appreciation (value) is not the same thing as objectification. Dennis Prager is a paleo-conservative. His Prager University does pretty good at lectures on free enterprise. The social side of life, though, he clearly does not understand. He cannot get past recent historical gender roles.
Do you know what a Morganatic marriage is? Women in Germanic cultures had more rights than Roman women. Roman culture informed and defined Roman Catholicism. That's where Prager is coming from: the road to hell starts between her legs.
While you get partial credit for stating 'women' on a pedestal are not equal to you, you fail at saying she is unequal to you. She is on the pedestal because you hold her to more value then you; an example you may better understand: the man you chose to date, you chose because you felt he had more value then the others [in your eye's], you pursued him because of the 'value' you saw in him..hence you pursued him because you us him as a value to you.
As to your: "Roman culture informing [I believe you meant forming] and defined Roman Catholicism.", again you failed at the truth. You see Mike, Romans were pagans and above all but, perhaps the Greeks help the human form as idolized and as an object of pleasure having built many 'bath houses' aka orgy rooms to indulge in this worship. Now, just because Christianity was on the rise after the history of Jesus Christ's life, death and rebirth was spreading does not mean Christians were defined by Roman's..quite the opposite in fact, Romans started to turn from the pagan orgies and when Rome actually burned the Christians were falsely blamed.
Now the again partial credit comes more from the fact that 'Catholics' founded in Roman to gain followers took many pagan holidays and melded them into their 'Christian' beliefs such as the December Birth of Jesus which aligned with the pagan solstice. The Roman Christians did much to harm the honesty of Christianity, something that still hurts modern Christianity to this day..but, roman culture was the main forming of the Catholic sect of Christianity.
Please, for your own good...do better research, one should never eisegete; one should always exegete when studying
The point of the article is that feminism has muddied the waters by trying to deny that what is actually innate is somehow the way things should be. Why? Because feminists don't want men and women to be different on any front - physical, emotional, or economical. They deny that gender does in fact exist.
Don't much care for any so called defined "Roles" these days...I think they are all wacky and the paradigm is upside down.
No one should be subjugated but placing a value on women, a deep appreciation...unless one is an idiot too,...doesn't hold anyone back.
Caution: unconscious antilectual liberals will not agree and may get violent...Laughing
PS...no fan of the Romans nor the Catholics...they screwed everything up.
- The Dude
Moreover, grammatically, the object is that to which an act is done, and thereby changed.
Furthermore, Dennis Prager's attempts at universals only deal with the immediacy of our culture, the West, and the last 500 years. Equatorial peoples go mostly naked most of the time. How does a leg or an abdomen become a sexual cue? That happens here because of denial. Hide the ankle, and you create foot fetishists. In fact, that is known among people in Tibet, where women often went bare-breasted (in good weather), but everyone always wears shoes. In his biography of Cato the Elder, Plutarch noted that the old Roman republican worked naked in the field alongside his slaves. Again, since the entire body was exposed, how can anyone be suddenly aroused by the sight of a limb... or a penis?
And yet they did experience sexual arousal, as their art works clearly show. It is just that the cues were different. The point is that Dennis Prager exhibits gross ignorance in his generalizations.
Our objectification of each other is a consequence of the anti-life aspects of Christianity, which denies the validity of sexual desire.
"how can anyone be suddenly aroused by the sight of a limb"
It's called being a man. Men are hard-wired to be aroused by sight. In that they differ greatly from women, who have a much more complex arousal mechanism. Go look up any psychological study and they will cite these as rather indisputable conclusions. There may be some outliers who suffer from various psychological issues who do not conform, but these are a tiny minority. Evidence: the porn industry is almost exclusively for male consumers. Lingerie - as cited by the author - is to take advantage of the innate arousal mechanism of men.
I would point out that using a minor tribe in Tibet as an example of general behavior in the rest of the world is not only ridiculous, but fails to acknowledge the very perpetuation mechanism for that very tribe. Again, you're stretching mightily and I'd recommend re-reading point 8 of Prager's observations.
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