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    Posted by $ WilliamShipley 7 years, 4 months ago
    Everyone sees people as sex objects. If you see a person across the street or a picture of a person, you don't know their personality, you don't know how smart they are, their sense of humor. You know what they look like. So your first impression is of that. If it attracts you sexually, you are seeing them as an object.

    This is only a problem if you don't move beyond that when you actually meet them.
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    • Posted by unitedlc 7 years, 4 months ago
      In reality, this extends well beyond the simple issue of sexually objectifying. All human beings judge based on first impressions. It is a natural instinct giving us the ability to decipher reality, protect ourselves, procreate, take advantage of opportunity, avoid conflict, etc. The actions we take in response to those first impression judgements are what makes us rational humans. If we can act civilly in the face of being aroused, nervous, frightened, concerned, excited, or whatever emotion a first impression may make, then we have succeeded in rationality.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 4 months ago
        Can't agree. Men have a natural tendency to look at women sexually, its biological (women (and business) certainly take advantage of this). Granted, different aspects of a woman appeal to different men - eyes, hair, hips, attitude, etc but the reality if biology triggers the attraction (likely for reproductive reasons). Proof: Pheramones.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
          Sexual attraction is not objectification. Dennis Prager is arguing for the de-humanization of other people. If it were anyone else, I might excuse his not knowing what he is saying, but Dennis Prager is smart enough to know what words mean.
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 4 months ago
            I would argue just the opposite. Objectification happens when one can only see (either by limited information or selective ignorance) a limited set of features or characteristics about something else - such as in this case gender. Until someone gets to know someone else, they have no idea whether that other person is honest or a thief, hard-working or a slacker, a Communist or an Objectivist. Physical features, however, are very easy to pick out - even from a distance - so establishing someone's sexual compatibility is an almost knee-jerk response. And psychologists have done studies that show that men can innately determine the gender of a face with astounding accuracy because a section of the brain tied to sexuality recognizes a feminine face vs a masculine one. They've even studies to determine the perfect figure of a woman (http://www.scienceofrelationships.com....

            I think what you are confusing and overlooking to the point of absurdity is that Prager is not arguing at stopping at objectification and sexual exploitation. His point is that feminism attempts to confuse the natural (i.e. innate) attractions of men toward women by telling both men and women that these attractions are bad. Both men and women have a sexual drive they want to use, so they look for potential ways to engage that drive. That starts by identifying potential partners. It doesn't say it has to stop there - with people viewing each other solely as objects - but that it shouldn't be ignored either.
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    • -2
      Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
      Bullshit. Do you see other men as sex objects? Do you talk to another guy while looking below his belt to size him up? Do you say that a stupid guy is blond or that blond guys are stupid? Do you think that a guy who is well-built is dumb? Did you ever tell a guy that he looks smarter and cuter with his glasses on?
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      • 11
        Posted by $ WilliamShipley 7 years, 4 months ago
        Perhaps I should be been more specific than "people" and made it clear that when I said "it attracts you sexually" I was referring to the subset of humanity that the viewer is attracted to. I rather thought that went without saying, but apparently not.

        Men looking at women, women looking at men and all the myriad combinations that people are attracted to each other in.

        As to what you say to someone, you have now met them and, as I said, if you don't move beyond that at that point it becomes a problem.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
          I misread your statement. You did say "people" and I just accepted that you meant "men." The problem that I have, though, is about the objectification. Everyone does not see everyone else as a sex object.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 4 months ago
    Yes of course, and women do men. Men are just more open about it.

    Everyone forms opinions about others, men or women, based on their looks. The problem is only if these initial impressions can not be displaced by real data and interactions. This initial information is not useless, but it is flawed. It is the same as worrying more about a big black guy in a hoodie an alley, than a slight white woman in a sundress. It is both natural (innate, healthy, viable offspring) and related to experience.
    It would be foolish to completely set this aside. On the other hand, it is equally foolish and inappropriate to rely on it when better information is available.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
      Objectification is de-humanization. We train soldiers to kill by teaching them to attack objects that resemble people. We degrade the enemy as "Krauts" or "camel-jockeys." That is not at all the same thing as responding positively to someone else who is physically attractive. And that can mean psychologically attractive, regardless of physical attributes.

      It is quite clear in Objectivist psychology, that when we respond to physical good looks, we are making an aesthetic judgment. The person might turn out to be completely unlikeable in every other aspect. That judgement comes later. The first impression is one thing. Moral evaluation is another.

      But that is not the same thing as objectification.

      And Dennis Prager is wrong when he says that it is "natural" to be aroused by the sight of a leg, breast, or abdomen. We learn that. As I said below https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post... in equatorial cultures where clothing is scant or merely decorative - men and women are naked except for a necklace or bracelet - other cues lead to sexual arousal.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 4 months ago
    I'll admit that my first notice of a woman is sexual. My wife's hourglass, voluptuous body and dazzling smile made it seem like there were no other women in the room, and made me more determined to get to know her. Discovering she had a brilliant mind, tremendous sense of humor, and incredible artistic talent sealed the deal. She readily admits I caught her attention sexually as well, since I was in pretty good shape back then. We've been married for nearly 40 years, and while both of our bodies are showing the years, there's still an element of sexual attraction to our relationship.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
      That is all fine and mirrors the relationship that my wife and I have enjoyed these past 38 years. But the question is objectification not attraction or arousal.

      And Prager is wrong about what causes arousal or attraction. We do know from worldwide studies that most people prefer symmetrical features in others. Beyond that, what constitutes a sexual cue varies by culture. As I said below, Tibetan women often go bare-breasted but everyone wears boots. So, the men have foot fetishes. I have heard that the French think that Americans suffer from breast fixations.

      Regardless of the turn-ons around the globe, it is not acceptable here and now to treat other people as objects.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 4 months ago
        I can't disagree with your concluding statement at all. Although, I do not accept the argument that arousal is learned, at least fully, based on the scant (no pun intended) evidence regarding equatorial cultures. There are studies showing, symmetry for example, span all cultures in "attractiveness". I'm sure I can identify more elements of innate attractiveness, and evidence this exists in infants, but I can't get after this until later. I don't think it takes away from your argument about the inappropriateness of objectifying humans in normal practice.
        I would take an Ian Anderson position on hot waitresses, perfume models, Daisy Duke or Daniel Craig wrt humor and social media. This is not the same.
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 4 months ago
        I would suggest that you cite the psychological studies you think back your case for learned attraction, however, as all the ones I have seen lean heavily towards it being an innate trait. What you are citing in Tibetans is not a denial of sexual attraction to breasts by men, but rather desensitization. What should be noted, however, is that the attraction doesn't go away simply because of the desensitization - it shifted to another area of the body.

        "I have heard that the French think that Americans suffer from breast fixations."

        That's probably because Europeans face the same desensitization you cite in the Tibetans. Their television advertising for soap almost exclusively features naked women showering - and they show everything. There are lingerie ads at bus stops and perfume ads in public places showing people in blatantly suggestive poses. And the postcards can be very X-rated. If one were to look at the difference in the two cultures, again, it comes down to desensitization: for men in France, a boob is ho-hum. American men aren't constantly bombarded by the same stimuli as the French men - there is still some mystery and excitement.

        It's very much like the high created by drugs. At first, it only takes a little bit. Then desensitization starts to take hold and the addict starts requiring more and more of the drug to get the same effect. The brain is a vast and complicated chemical machine, but the studies about addiction and pleasure-center stimulation are pretty thorough.

        "it is not acceptable here and now to treat other people as objects."

        Again, people are a sub-set of the larger inclusive group known as objects. Should people be recognized and treated as people - a smaller set of the larger general classification known as objects? Absolutely. But you are falling prey to the very feminism Prager is pointing out by denying that men and women often look at each other based on the prospects of amorous activity. The very hook-up culture that has stormed America in the past 20 years is evidence that many people are objectifying the opposite sex. What makes these hook-ups of lesser quality than those of marriage falls exactly to the point you do have correct: that people shouldn't stop at the objectification and should explore the other attributes of their partner.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 4 months ago
    Does advertising sexually objectify women?
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 4 months ago
      They exploit the objectification, but they can't create what already existed.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
        Capitalism rests on individualism which depends on reason and the identification of reality. In this discussion, "what already existed" was anti-life, anti-human, anti-reason. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels said in The Communist Manifesto that among the crimes of capitalism was that it took women out of the home, denying them their natural roles as wives and mothers. As a result of capitalism women became engineers, astronomers, telegraph operators and telephone operators, stenographers, secretaries, and administrative assistants.

        Recognize that in the century before capitalism, those jobs were held by men. Then ask yourself how you would react to hiring a man based on his looks, or his physical endowments.

        "What already existed" was in fact what needed to be changed as people were liberated by capitalism.
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        • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 7 years, 4 months ago
          Are you under the impression that good looking people of either gender don't have an advantage in the hiring process? Even in jobs that don't involve a lot of customer contact and especially in those.
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          • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
            I am sure that good-looking people do have social advantages. Regardless of the specific cultural standards, if you meet or exceed them, you win. in our society, tall men get hired to be sales managers. That statistical fact does not justify the discrimination against short women for the same opportunities. All that should matter is the sales numbers. You and I should be on common ground for all of that.

            That said, though, just as one counter-example, in an earlier time, if a machinist applied for a job the foreman was most interested in seeing the tools in the box that the applicant made for himself. That was the standard, not how good-looking he was. He might be; and it might give an advantage. But if he did not pass muster, good looks would not make up for a lack of machinery knowledge.

            Again, I think that you and I are on the same page there. Where we disconnect is over the word "object." Responding physically to someone is not the same thing as de-humanizing them. That is what Dennis Prager is advocating.

            And he is not ignorant. I believe that he understands full well what he is saying.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 4 months ago
          No idea where you are coming from on this or where you are going, to be honest. Not sure how The Communist Manifesto comes into play here at all. The question at hand is whether innately men objectify women based on their sexuality and attractiveness. I'm not sure what you think "already existed" because what the author is arguing is that sexuality is innate - not taught - and that feminists in particular are attempting to shame people into avoiding sexuality.

          Capitalism indeed frees people to pursue their economic interests. Not sure how one equates that with sexual liberation, however.
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          • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
            I agree that the question at hand is where people naturally objectify each other based on sexual attraction. As I pointed out, those cues are cultural. Prager is wrong when he identifies which body parts are "naturally" arousing. And arousal is not objectification. Objectification is de-humanizing. That is all it ever was or can be.

            As for the link between economic liberation and sexual liberation, it is all human action. If you do not perceive the connections in different expressions of individual freedom of action, my powers of persuasion might be too limited to explain it all in a few paragraphs.
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 4 months ago
              "Prager is wrong when he identifies which body parts are "naturally" arousing."

              Please cite the psychological studies you think support such a position. ALL the ones I've seen about men specifically state the opposite.

              "And arousal is not objectification."

              I think this is where you use a definition different than the rest of us - including Prager. Again, see point eight.

              "As for the link between economic liberation and sexual liberation, it is all human action."

              I think you're trying way too hard to over-simplify things. Every different portion of the economic market relies on different factors. No serious economist attempts to treat the automobile market the same way they treat the market for eggs (no pun intended).
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  • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 4 months ago
    Female sexual objectification by a male involves a woman being viewed primarily as an object of male sexual desire, rather than as a whole person.[1][2][3] Although opinions differ as to which situations are objectionable, some feminists[4] see objectification of women taking place in the sexually oriented depictions of women in advertising and media, women being portrayed as weak or submissive through pornography, images in more mainstream media such as advertising and art, stripping and prostitution, men brazenly evaluating or judging women sexually or aesthetically in public spaces and events, such as beauty contests, and the presumed need for cosmetic surgery, particularly breast enlargement and labiaplasty.[5] Objectification in the media can range from subtle forms, such as the lack of main female characters, to very explicit forms such as highly sexualized dialogue and provocatively dressed female characters.
    From Wikipedia

    I can only say that sexual chemistry is real . For both men and women ,heterosexual or homosexual. People have different tastes or different strokes for different folks. When Hollywood producers cast for movies they try to hire the most attractive people for many roles , not all but most. Because they are creating a voyeristic fantasy , a distraction and entertainment for the viewers. When fantasy collides with reality it is usually a disaster. See altruism.

    Personally after 37 years of marriage to a smart, hard working , talented ,kind ,loving ,amazing , sexy, beautiful ,attractive women , I cannot and do not perform sexually with her if she is not into it. Luckily for me it is rare that she is not. The mystery in our relationship to me is that she finds me handsome. Note in her description I didn't say good eyesight.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 4 months ago
      Congratulations for having a great marriage. I feel much the same way about mine, but I've still got a bit to go to catch up to you!
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      • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 4 months ago
        Thanks Blarman and back at you. As you know it is not always smooth sailing. I say if you build a strong foundation you can handle the quakes whatever the magnitude. Metaphorically speaking.
        For both of us our only marriage , we started at 22
        for me and 21for her.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 4 months ago
    Without being the leading anthropologist in the Gulch, based on a number of books I read many years ago, (The Naked Ape, etc,) Nature designed males to be visually attracted to females in order to spur on reproduction thus promoting survival of the species. It starts at puberty and goes on with most males to well past female menopause which gets some of us older guys in the "you ought to be ashamed of yourself" category. I think that it is admirable that most men control their primal urges. If they didn't, women would be not much better than blow-up dolls in the way they were treated.
    Do men ever outgrow objectifying women? Some do. Some don't. At a certain point with most males, capability surrenders to chronic aging and new hobbies are often espoused.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 4 months ago
    Depends on what you mean by "to objectify."

    If you mean, do they daydream of intimacy with women, yes.

    If you mean, that's all they do in the company of women, that depends on the man.

    And then there's Francisco d'Anconia's theory of what a man finds sexually attractive...
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  • Posted by KRUEG 7 years, 4 months ago
    Yes. Check out YAHOO, everyday another story about who wore what and how much they showed. It is in our face everyday. Hell, Playboy showed less in it's early days than what is going on in the movies and concerts.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 4 months ago
    Methinks too much is made of normal sexuality.
    Leftists make the most noise for issues pertaining to it and they ain't into reality in the first damn place.
    As for my prehistoric reality, watch how allosaurs learn to respect females. You may want to scroll
    this instructional video about halfway to get past the soup and salad and more into the meat and potatoes~
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9IjL...
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  • Posted by fivedollargold 7 years, 4 months ago
    Fivedollargold volunteers to conduct an experiment. He needs 40 women of various sizes, ages, interests, educational background, &c. Send dosier, including head shot and full body photo, to him c/o Galt's Gulch. Also include measurements, so that, if selected, clothing outfits can be prepared.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 4 months ago
    Objectification is done by the time a percept is formed due to having passed through older parts of the brain for which sexual attributes were important for reproduction. The rational brain then can decides what is important for a certain context or just to run with it with respect to one's beliefs. If it bothers one, then go for a religion that tries to cover a body to the extent that the old brain has to make percepts from other atributes for sexual purposes.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 7 years, 4 months ago
    I don't see women as sex objects; rather. I see them as subjects - subjects of my attention, interest and time. Sexual attributes included, as well as all other attributes that a person has. Exactly the same process that goes through a woman's head when she sees a man (and recently several other permutations, as well). Sexuality is part of our existence; there is nothing wrong or negative about it. A man paying attention to sexual aspects of a woman in no way means that he hates her - in, fact the opposite is true. The same applies to women - what perverted (not sexually, but psychologically perverted) mind ever come up with an idea that when one sees something they like in an opposite sex, that it somehow equates to hate? Really, they need to curl back into a fetal position and suck Enfomil at their favorite college safe-space.
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  • Posted by ChestyPuller 7 years, 4 months ago
    I Agree..Men view women as sex objects as well women view men as sex objects...PSST...its in our DNA; you see if men and women didn't view each other in this way the human race would have quickly died off.

    Now, I do understand that the 'Darwinian' groups formed in the late 19th Century through today have worked hard at trying to make this dying off happen still, but at a much slower rate. Margaret Sanger aimed at 'colored folk' by physically removing their babies from the womb [abortion], others at those 'different' among us; first those that were not deemed normal, then those claimed as sick by cutting out their reproductive organs [sterilization] and now in a much more 'sneaky' fashion using pills and devices to stop or end pregnancy within 24 hours...

    Still though the Brain wants what the Brain wants and that is too LIVE... so it does what every living organism does..attracts and get's attracted to the other organism that will help it procreate!

    But, how in this PC world does it do this??? It turns on your sexual stimulants when you see an opposite life form; ie: man sees a woman, woman sees a man, both see each other...

    its the way of life...live with it!
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 4 months ago
    It's starts off saying education makes people foolish, which isn't a promising start.

    I think it comes down to what is a "sex object". I would think maybe the author means someone we're sexually attracted to, but #1 of his "eight truths" is it's normal for men to see people their sexually attracted to as sex objects. This implies that it's possible to be sexually attracted to someone without seeing her as a "sex object".

    This article would make more sense to me if the author gave an example of sexual attraction with and without objectification.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 4 months ago
    And what's wrong if we do?..cause in a relationship it usually comes down to the entire package anyway...it's not like we act like islam or the state dept, (most like little boys) and ex demoncrapic presidents.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
      See above: Virgin or whore; pedestal or gutter.

      The reason that straight guys are uncomfortable around gays is that they do not want another guy to think of them they way that they think of women.

      But by your logic, there is nothing wrong with that. It is "natural." Well, I agree that it may be "natural" but so are many behaviors, such as aggression and predation, that we circumscribe in order to have civilization.
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 4 months ago
        I come from the "Pedestal" aspect and I think most men do...some may not admit it though. I also think that the "Physical" objectification is a result of that appreciation; whereas the gutter aspect is a false sense of superiority and it's perverse.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
          I can grant that you are a nice guy and all, but consider that the "pedestal" is still distant from you. When you put a woman on a pedestal, you deny her equality. And, the other side of that coin - the gutter - is always implied.

          Appreciation (value) is not the same thing as objectification. Dennis Prager is a paleo-conservative. His Prager University does pretty good at lectures on free enterprise. The social side of life, though, he clearly does not understand. He cannot get past recent historical gender roles.

          Do you know what a Morganatic marriage is? Women in Germanic cultures had more rights than Roman women. Roman culture informed and defined Roman Catholicism. That's where Prager is coming from: the road to hell starts between her legs.
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          • Posted by ChestyPuller 7 years, 4 months ago
            WoW! Where do you get this stuff?? Some one lied to you; no better statement, some one con'd you.

            While you get partial credit for stating 'women' on a pedestal are not equal to you, you fail at saying she is unequal to you. She is on the pedestal because you hold her to more value then you; an example you may better understand: the man you chose to date, you chose because you felt he had more value then the others [in your eye's], you pursued him because of the 'value' you saw in him..hence you pursued him because you us him as a value to you.

            As to your: "Roman culture informing [I believe you meant forming] and defined Roman Catholicism.", again you failed at the truth. You see Mike, Romans were pagans and above all but, perhaps the Greeks help the human form as idolized and as an object of pleasure having built many 'bath houses' aka orgy rooms to indulge in this worship. Now, just because Christianity was on the rise after the history of Jesus Christ's life, death and rebirth was spreading does not mean Christians were defined by Roman's..quite the opposite in fact, Romans started to turn from the pagan orgies and when Rome actually burned the Christians were falsely blamed.

            Now the again partial credit comes more from the fact that 'Catholics' founded in Roman to gain followers took many pagan holidays and melded them into their 'Christian' beliefs such as the December Birth of Jesus which aligned with the pagan solstice. The Roman Christians did much to harm the honesty of Christianity, something that still hurts modern Christianity to this day..but, roman culture was the main forming of the Catholic sect of Christianity.

            Please, for your own good...do better research, one should never eisegete; one should always exegete when studying
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 4 months ago
            If you read what he says, he argues that the first thing that pops in is sexual attractiveness but that a greater appreciation for the intellect, etc. is not innate, but rather experiential. What you are arguing is that sexual attractiveness is the same as sex, and I disagree that this is the intent of the author at all.

            The point of the article is that feminism has muddied the waters by trying to deny that what is actually innate is somehow the way things should be. Why? Because feminists don't want men and women to be different on any front - physical, emotional, or economical. They deny that gender does in fact exist.
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          • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 4 months ago
            I disagree about the pedestal denying a women's equality...so maybe "Pedestal" is not the right word.

            Don't much care for any so called defined "Roles" these days...I think they are all wacky and the paradigm is upside down.
            No one should be subjugated but placing a value on women, a deep appreciation...unless one is an idiot too,...doesn't hold anyone back.
            Caution: unconscious antilectual liberals will not agree and may get violent...Laughing

            PS...no fan of the Romans nor the Catholics...they screwed everything up.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 4 months ago
    That Town Hall column by Dennis Prager is total nonsense. First of all, the key word is object. Objects can be property. Objects have no humanity. Indeed, objects have no life.

    Moreover, grammatically, the object is that to which an act is done, and thereby changed.

    Furthermore, Dennis Prager's attempts at universals only deal with the immediacy of our culture, the West, and the last 500 years. Equatorial peoples go mostly naked most of the time. How does a leg or an abdomen become a sexual cue? That happens here because of denial. Hide the ankle, and you create foot fetishists. In fact, that is known among people in Tibet, where women often went bare-breasted (in good weather), but everyone always wears shoes. In his biography of Cato the Elder, Plutarch noted that the old Roman republican worked naked in the field alongside his slaves. Again, since the entire body was exposed, how can anyone be suddenly aroused by the sight of a limb... or a penis?

    And yet they did experience sexual arousal, as their art works clearly show. It is just that the cues were different. The point is that Dennis Prager exhibits gross ignorance in his generalizations.

    Our objectification of each other is a consequence of the anti-life aspects of Christianity, which denies the validity of sexual desire.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 4 months ago
      Object can be used in several ways, but the primary meaning is something other than one's self. If your primary argument is that it fails to recognize the sentience of another human being, I would point out that while all human beings are objects, not all objects are human beings. I think you're stretching things just a bit in your objection. (Side note: "objection" has the word object in it but is solely used with humans...)

      "how can anyone be suddenly aroused by the sight of a limb"

      It's called being a man. Men are hard-wired to be aroused by sight. In that they differ greatly from women, who have a much more complex arousal mechanism. Go look up any psychological study and they will cite these as rather indisputable conclusions. There may be some outliers who suffer from various psychological issues who do not conform, but these are a tiny minority. Evidence: the porn industry is almost exclusively for male consumers. Lingerie - as cited by the author - is to take advantage of the innate arousal mechanism of men.

      I would point out that using a minor tribe in Tibet as an example of general behavior in the rest of the world is not only ridiculous, but fails to acknowledge the very perpetuation mechanism for that very tribe. Again, you're stretching mightily and I'd recommend re-reading point 8 of Prager's observations.
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