Ask the Gulch: should there be limits on what government employees can donate to political candidates?
Personally, I think that if you go to work for the government, there is an inherent bias to vote for more government as a product of self-interest. But I think this article exposes yet another problem with government employees giving money to political candidates: they can't objectively prosecute them!
The problem, however, is that banning government employees from voting seems prima facie a violation of the right to vote. What are your thoughts on how to resolve this quandary?
The problem, however, is that banning government employees from voting seems prima facie a violation of the right to vote. What are your thoughts on how to resolve this quandary?
Saying that, yes, taxpayers pay my salary. However, I am ALSO a taxpayer and have just as much say as any other citizen on how those tax dollars should be spent.
While we're on the subject, if government employees were barred from voting, shouldn't civilian contractors (with government contracts) also be banned? We might as well ban welfare and food stamp recipients (actually, I might agree with that).
Personally, and I expect to receive some criticism on this, I would like to see only property owners be allowed to vote, but that's just my opinion...
To go along with your idea that food stamp and other welfare recipients have their votes rescinded as the price for living off the rest of us (which I wholeheartedly agree with btw), maybe we reduce government salaries and exempt them from taxation and in exchange, they don't get to vote in general elections. If they aren't getting taxed, they can't claim a loss of representation as being unfair. Government contractors are a whole other story, but might fit in this category as well. (And who knows: if we can get enough businesses classed as exempt maybe we can just kill the whole personal income tax scheme =D).
With regards to the property votes, originally, this was supposed to be who the Senate primarily represented. I am of the strong opinion that the Seventeenth Amendment should be repealed/overturned, returning election of Senators to State Legislatures. I also support the Electoral College (appointed by Governors) as being the proper selectors of the President rather than popular vote.
One more idea to piggy-back on yours... For quite some time, I have floated within my own mind the notion of restricting donations to candidates directly represented by one's precinct. ie I can't donate money to a governor's race in Indiana if I live in Illinois. It would completely gut PAC's and the DNC/RNC apparachiks, and I believe that it would restore accountability to the candidates themselves. I would also place the onus on the candidates themselves, rendering their entire eligibility upon the vetting of their donors and donor amounts (of course it would also be illegal for someone to funnel money through a legal resident).
I tend to agree with your stance, but I think that there is substantial merit to the counter-argument. I don't want to jump to a conclusion without thinking things through.
What are the agencies you know of that do it? Is it enforced?
The GDP is 53,041.98 USD (2013). Debt is about 154,611 USD (2015). So at least 35 months of slave labor is required from each American to pay down the debt.
Unless the slaves are untaxed for current federal and state and local government costs, expected to starve, freeze, or die of exposure, the time enslaved will be much longer... more like a life sentence for multiple generations continuing to support the foreign junkets, yachts, protection details, private planes, golf vacations, champagne and caviar appetites of looters and banksters.
Proposing 'fixing' any of the problems with government by denying the right to vote is screwy; what the proposal means in reality is largely ignored both in its impact and its futility as a method. Not only does it harm innocent people, it ignores that reform requires first fundamentally changing the premises accepted for what government is and why. If government can't be reformed directly in this intellectual climate, how could anyone expect to achieve it through a screwy plan to deny voting rights?
For this reason they should not be legally allowed to donate money to vote for anyone except their own State Candidates and definitely not the the Executive [Pres. & Vice Pres.] The Privilege term is important because from the beginning of the U.S. Constitution until now and even in 1862 it points out who is and isn't liable to certain laws of these United States of America. This being said; these are the only American citizen "employee's" with "income" deemed payable to the federal gov't through the Internal Revenue Tax collected by the IRS.
Again those being paid by tax dollars should not be allowed to donate to the entity that can increase their income or the amount of people so privileged to be 'employed' under them.
While the donation portion of this posting is purely my opinion made from my understanding, and vast study of the history of these United States, of the what the founders deemed corrected..the laws governing the Tax liability of the American People to the federal government is not; it is factual and legally binding.
But Holcomb misses one important element. It's one thing to say, "Trump has no reason to trust these particular government employees, so of course he will fire them, and hire his own men to fill their slots." But it would be quite another matter altogether to say, "So-and-so will come in wielding an ax to chop off the deadwood of government." Which of course is what John Galt would do, if anyone ever persuaded him to run for President and if by some chance he could win election. He would eliminate all the quasi-legislative and quasi-judicial bodies, and in fact every department except those of State, the Treasury, Defense, and Justice.
Any discussion of limits on the campaigning activities, private donations, or voting rights of government employees, must take that into account.
Note carefully: government employees' activities fall into three categories. The first--overt campaigning on government time--is already illegal. Research the phrase "Hatch Act" in any search engine. Under it, no employee may use a government copying machine to run off campaign flyers or posters, nor work on a campaign while on paid leave.
Next would be the private donations. Since employment by the government is an act of mutual consent, it follows that the government may restrict private giving by government employees and their immediate families if they so wish. And maybe the people should insist upon that.
Finally, as to voting: the late Robert A. Heinlein, in Starship Troopers, projected a society in which military or other government service members would not be allowed to vote while working for the government. "Why, if they let [members of a certain combat unit] vote, the idiots might vote not to [go on a combat mission]. Can't have that!" Of course, Heinlein proposed limiting the franchise to those who had completed a term of government service lasting two years or more--and did not propose to limit the types of service that would qualify one for the franchise. (For instance, terraforming engineers would also qualify, this although they were not military.)
And United States history has examples of manipulation of "the soldier vote." Abraham Lincoln so manipulated the votes of soldiers and sailors in the United States Army and Navy in the Election of 1864. Barack Obama's critics lay the same charge at his door, especially as regards absentee balloting.
And in this context, I must tell you all: Governor Terry McAuliffe of Virginia has implicated himself in a scheme, in Fairfax County, Virginia, to stuff absentee ballot envelopes with Democratic Party campaign materials, in clear violation of Virginia election law. I intend to raise this issue at my next opportunity to meet in person with certain members of the Virginia House of Delegates, with a view to bringing Articles of Impeachment against the governor for that offense.
All that to say: the right of citizens to vote need not, in my opinion, apply to those who have a vested interest in the growth of government. But in any case, rules must apply to everyone, or they are not respectable at all.
Here in California our governor just signed a law allowing incarcerated felons to vote. Haha!
With around half the people in this country on the teet, I think we have bigger fish to fry...
The government's bought. It's too late, folks...
However, my impression is that we were discussing hypothetically. I answered that in the way of a reasonably uncorrupted government. Otherwise, there is no point to asking the question.
To make the argument that you would prefer government employees to not be able to make as much of a difference in election because they will vote for government is really exactly the same as people who oppose in the citizens United decision because it allows corporations to have more influence over government.
The only way to fix the conflict of interest, while still respecting human rights, is to eliminate government employees
That was a roar roared with raw emotion.
That's not the Ayn Rand way of thinking things out.
You are right. This is a first amendment issue.
The self-serving greedy little rats do not have to think objectively and can donate up to whatever unconstitutional limits Big Brother may impose.
Lets break down the fallacy of that classical argument:
To begin, if there actually IS a fire in a crowded theater, then screaming fire could save people's lives. If there isn't you are acting fraudulently and possibly causing a panic and injuring people due to your false information.
One does not have the "right" to harm others, and presenting false information is an act of coercion and force, like fraud. Therefore the latter example is not an example of the right to freedom of expression. It cannot be a curb on a right if it is not a right in the first place.
Your arguments about strict scrutiny are arguments about law, not about philosophy, moral, ethics, or even politics strictly. That is mistaking the letter of the law for the concept behind the law. That strict scrutiny concept is intended to protect the concept of not violating people's rights, so we should not base arguments about whether a law or right or wrong, moral or immoral, etc on whether it specifically fits the "strict scrutiny" definition, but whether it protects rights or violates them.
I don't disagree. I'm just pointing out that the argument (correctly rejected IMO) was that the offender claimed an unlimited right of free speech in that case. If the right is unlimited, it doesn't matter whether or not fraud or deceit were involved. Do you now see why the notion of an "unlimited" right is in and of itself a false argument? What you are really saying is that there is context appropriate to the expression of a right and that context matters. And I agree with you in that. What I am pointing out is that that very context is in and of itself a limitation on that particular right.
Another example? Let's look at the right to vote. If the right to vote were unlimited, one would have the right to vote in every county in your state, in every state in the nation, and even in other nations. That's prima facie absurd. Why? Because context matters. Voting is restricted to one's own precinct within one's own nation. Unless you're a Democrat of course. ;)
Yes, strict scrutiny is a legal term. But it very much also represents a philosophy: the philosophy of limited government. It qualifies from a very philosophical standpoint when the government may get involved in regulation because the underlying principles are 1) that rights do not emanate from government, 2) that government is a caretaker only (of rights), and 3) that government interference should start from the most restricted standpoint. This differs greatly from the current Progressive judicial philosophy of "the ends justify the means", of which the underlying philosophy is that 1) rights stem from government and 2) what the government giveth, the government is wholly justified in retracting. ALL law is ultimately philosophy in some way.
What you do is still let everyone vote -- but any measure that would increase taxation or spending would require both a majority of all voters and a majority of net tax payers. (Which would require the voting rolls to show who is one.)
Who knows - it might even cut down on some of the dead people voting Democrat. ;)
Do their forms also specify whether one is a citizen or alien? One of the huge problems facing this nation is of illegal voting by immigrants and other non-citizens...
They do not, however, ask if you are dead. They don't confirm that either.
Now, that isn't because I have discounted your concerns about where the infringement ends. I asked for more opinions because I shared your concern. What I'm trying to do is solve the problem identified by several Founding Fathers including Benjamin Franklin when he said "When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic." Effectively, that is what we have in the public/government workers unions and it is destroying fiscal constraint in government.
Second: The teachers do not belong to the government. If teachers cannot, or better yet WILL NOT, stand up to their union, then that has absolutely nothing to do with government employees and how government employees will or will not vote. The "proof" that was presented in the article is bogus.
Third: I know individuals who are teachers. In fact, my son is a teacher. I agree that pressure is placed on teachers to "vote" a specific way. So what. No officer of the teacher's union goes into the voting booth with the teacher when they vote. Again it boils down to: is the individual a "herd member" or a "non-herd member" or to put it a different way is the person someone who is willing to stand up for themselves or succumb to the will of someone else. And once again, that has nothing to do with a "government employee" and everything to do with all human beings.
Regarding the teachers, no, they are not technically "part of the government", but because they are almost all forced to participate in the teachers' unions (it varies from state to state) they become a part of the apparatus because of their dues. That was one of the reasons that court case about teachers' union dues was so important, because it was the case of a teacher arguing that she should be able to divest herself of the union because she differed politically and they represented things she disagreed with. (I'm not sure I heard the outcome). So regardless of how the teacher as an individual votes, their money is being used for a distinctly political purpose. The same thing applies to fire fighters and the police. That's why I think public sector unions should be outlawed - they are a conflict of interest. Look at any mayor's run. Why is there such a big deal to get the police union, the firefighters union and the teachers union to endorse you (along with the local paper)? Because those endorsements come with political clout and money.
Should more people stand up for themselves? Sure. But when you've got a family to feed and a mortgage to pay, losing your job because of a political stand isn't really in the cards for most people.
So, as you stated, and I agree: "public sector unions should be outlawed."
You'd have to look at how much of people's primary clients' or employers' revenue comes from gov't contract to do the calculation. Few people would be able to vote.
Despite that and the despite the inherent problems, I love the spirit of it. I don't love denying people the right to vote. But our current system seems inherently flawed because if even 20% of my earnings come from companies funded by grants, I have a strong incentive to ask my congressman to keep that money flowing. If the cut the program, maybe it would save every taxpayer 1 cent. They won't lobby for their 1 cent. I might grudgingly lobby to keep the grant, though. After all, I send them those quarterly estimates, and I want some of that money back. I can't unilaterally disarm. That's so wrong. It will cause the country to go bankrupt.
I don't think a voting formula is part of the answer, but I'm open to radical suggestions to cut gov't.
But it is not good to punish people for getting back as much of the taxes they were forced to pay as they can. Unjust punishment is not "incentive". As long as the programs continue, people have a right to recover what they can. Punishing people that way while continuing to sanction and run the programs is obscene.
I agree with your intention. I have worked as a contractor several times and one time, it was an election year and we got memos warning us not to wear campaign buttons. So, I get that; I understand.
In Atlas Shrugged near the end, there is an altercation at the Ferris Persuader. "You're not allowed to have political opinions!" an officer yells at a soldier. But it is pretty close to reality. Talking politics among peers is perhaps unavoidable, no different than sports or sex, but like sex (and unlike sports), politics crosses too many social boundaries; and (more to the point) officers have power over enlisteds that silences the voices of those without "birds, bars, leaves, and stars." As a petty officer E-5 (like a buck sergeant) I often zip my lip when other people spout off their political opinions.
But, being combat veterans, they should not be denied the right to vote. In fact, Heinlein suggested just the opposite: in order to vote, you must be a veteran.
I don't actually think this is at all a good idea, but I'm desperate for ways to limit gov't. There's a huge incentive to keep the spending plan that benefits one person and most no incentive for everyone who's paying half a cent toward it to keep their half cent.
This is why I reject the stuff about moochers, as if there were a few evil people behind the problem. If you close a military base, stop subsidizing a college, stop a research grant, jobs go away. It's hard to explain that they'll come back and grow to more wealth if we return that money to taxpayers and let them spend and invest as they see fit.
That would leave less than 1 million voters and eliminate 99% of the current looters from running for office.
When you add Union's to the gov't now you will also have many more being untrustworthy then not. But still, not all will be untrustworthy.
I would agree with what I hope is your underlying assumption (see elsewhere in this thread), but your blanket condemnation is unjust. Government has proper functions. If anything, paying more would attact even better people from the private sector. After all, We the People deserve the best servants that money can buy: soldiers, sailors, surveyors, lawyers, computer network security analysts, artists, musicians.
See here:
http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/20...
and here:
http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/20...
In particular on the second, does not our Republic deserve the best historians to archive our narrative?
However, artists and historians ought not be government employees. The only proper function of government is to employ the retaliatory use of force against those who initiate it against its citizens. That of a police officer. The military would fall into this category as well. Our court system (and I'd say likely the public defenders office as well) would be the domestic enforcement wing of this endeavor, but also to since rational disputes between citizens. And the only reason these functions should be relegated to government (and only government) is because they involve the use of force, which rightly should be the monopoly of government. That also means it should not involve itself in any endeavor in which force should not be involved, such as art, science research, historical records, education, food and drug regulation, etc.
Boondoggles to Southeast Asia at taxpayers expense. Pay for it yourself if you feel it is a benefit to you. Stop looting from others.
Thanks for proving my point with your vote.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/78...
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/66...
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/soc...
The author discusses the book:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu_Vq...
The problem with your suggestion, though, is that you are here despite the lack of things you demand that everyone else be forced to read. I find several contradictions in that. I look to the words of "President Bartlett" (Martin Sheen) "Decisions are made by those who show up."
You decide for millions.
Math and science are taught in part because they are proven tools to give better outcomes in the real world than teaching witchcraft. Assuring that people are educated and clearly understand the value of individual liberty and free markets and how government must be very limited to protect them is just as rational as teaching math and science. Yes, some will have more aptitude and/or interest than others. If they choose not to learn or cannot learn these things then they should not be consulted for their input on policy.