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Ask the Gulch: should there be limits on what government employees can donate to political candidates?

Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago to Government
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Personally, I think that if you go to work for the government, there is an inherent bias to vote for more government as a product of self-interest. But I think this article exposes yet another problem with government employees giving money to political candidates: they can't objectively prosecute them!

The problem, however, is that banning government employees from voting seems prima facie a violation of the right to vote. What are your thoughts on how to resolve this quandary?
SOURCE URL: http://townhall.com/tipsheet/justinholcomb/2016/10/26/weird-97-percent-of-justice-department-political-donations-went-to-clinton-n2237387?newsletterad=


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  • Posted by richrobinson 7 years, 5 months ago
    Government employees should be barred from donating to campaigns and barred from voting. I don't see it as a violation of their rights. They have the right to work in the private sector if they want to vote. I talked to someone yesterday who said a teacher told her the pressure from the teachers union to vote Democrat is incredible. She said some do it just to protect their jobs even though no one could really know for sure who you voted for.
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    • Posted by JuliBMe 7 years, 5 months ago
      I completely agree. Government employees are OUR employees and we have the right to bar them from voting against our interests. So, they should not be allowed to donate or vote.
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      • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 7 years, 5 months ago
        I'm a government employee...not Federal, but state.

        Saying that, yes, taxpayers pay my salary. However, I am ALSO a taxpayer and have just as much say as any other citizen on how those tax dollars should be spent.

        While we're on the subject, if government employees were barred from voting, shouldn't civilian contractors (with government contracts) also be banned? We might as well ban welfare and food stamp recipients (actually, I might agree with that).

        Personally, and I expect to receive some criticism on this, I would like to see only property owners be allowed to vote, but that's just my opinion...
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          Thanks very much for your input, as this is one of the things I was trying to weigh in my conclusion. The crux of your argument seems to be that if one pays taxes, one should get to vote to participate in how those taxes are distributed. It hearkens back to the rallying cry at the Boston Tea Party: no taxation without representation! And I have to agree, which is why this question presents conflicts to me.

          To go along with your idea that food stamp and other welfare recipients have their votes rescinded as the price for living off the rest of us (which I wholeheartedly agree with btw), maybe we reduce government salaries and exempt them from taxation and in exchange, they don't get to vote in general elections. If they aren't getting taxed, they can't claim a loss of representation as being unfair. Government contractors are a whole other story, but might fit in this category as well. (And who knows: if we can get enough businesses classed as exempt maybe we can just kill the whole personal income tax scheme =D).

          With regards to the property votes, originally, this was supposed to be who the Senate primarily represented. I am of the strong opinion that the Seventeenth Amendment should be repealed/overturned, returning election of Senators to State Legislatures. I also support the Electoral College (appointed by Governors) as being the proper selectors of the President rather than popular vote.

          One more idea to piggy-back on yours... For quite some time, I have floated within my own mind the notion of restricting donations to candidates directly represented by one's precinct. ie I can't donate money to a governor's race in Indiana if I live in Illinois. It would completely gut PAC's and the DNC/RNC apparachiks, and I believe that it would restore accountability to the candidates themselves. I would also place the onus on the candidates themselves, rendering their entire eligibility upon the vetting of their donors and donor amounts (of course it would also be illegal for someone to funnel money through a legal resident).
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        • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 5 months ago
          Yes, all recipients are compromised by personal interests in continuing looting for their personal gain and they should know when they take the job that they are agreeing to lose their voting rights until they are no longer compromised. State employees should still be able to vote for federal elective positions, but not state elective positions, unless they are actually providing federal support functions.
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      • Posted by richrobinson 7 years, 5 months ago
        The irony is that some of the tax money paying their salaries is mine and its going to a candidate that I despise.
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        • Posted by rbroberg 7 years, 5 months ago
          A lot of people tend to consider their tax rate as being equal to their income tax rate. It is actually much higher. So not only do your dollars go to federal programs and candidates you don't actually want, your property tax go to schools that indoctrinate kids to vote Democrat, your sales tax goes to roads you don't care to use. A 50 percent tax is not out of the question.

          The GDP is 53,041.98 USD (2013). Debt is about 154,611 USD (2015). So at least 35 months of slave labor is required from each American to pay down the debt.
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          • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 5 months ago
            "So at least 35 months of slave labor is required"
            Unless the slaves are untaxed for current federal and state and local government costs, expected to starve, freeze, or die of exposure, the time enslaved will be much longer... more like a life sentence for multiple generations continuing to support the foreign junkets, yachts, protection details, private planes, golf vacations, champagne and caviar appetites of looters and banksters.
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      • Posted by ewv 7 years, 5 months ago
        Military personnel should not be allowed to vote?
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          That is one of the questions being asked. For my two cents, I hold military as one of the necessary functions of government so I'm not so keen on the idea of restricting military voters. (Aside from the fact that Obama already tried that with absentee ballots in the last election because most service personnel don't vote Democrat.) The bureaucracy is another story entirely...
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          • Posted by ewv 7 years, 5 months ago
            Most of the discussion is here is floating abstractions cut loose from meaning in reality. A lot of functions in government are useful but should not be run by the government; doing so forces people's jobs to be dependent on it. Others, like the military, are necessarily proper functions of government.

            Proposing 'fixing' any of the problems with government by denying the right to vote is screwy; what the proposal means in reality is largely ignored both in its impact and its futility as a method. Not only does it harm innocent people, it ignores that reform requires first fundamentally changing the premises accepted for what government is and why. If government can't be reformed directly in this intellectual climate, how could anyone expect to achieve it through a screwy plan to deny voting rights?
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
              I agree that government as a voting bloc is a symptom of the greater problem, but at issue is how to effectively move the government back towards a limited government of enumerated powers in the face of the public sector voters who vote their own interests in many cases in collusion with government interests in expansion. There is also the secondary question of how does one structure a future version of the Constitution to act as a guard against this happening down the road - assuming we can restore the original Constitution of course.
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              • Posted by ewv 7 years, 5 months ago
                If there were a proper government then government officials would not be a problem. Since they are, and because both that and the statist role of government are accepted, stopping them from voting is futile: It would not solve the problem if it could be implemented and it would not be allowed to be implemented because the statist role of government is accepted.
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  • Posted by ChestyPuller 7 years, 5 months ago
    Being that as described by our founders, those in the employ of the gov't are a 'privileged' "employee" in that their "income" comes solely from the American People [Citizens of the several states, federal territories or those allowed to work in under the protection of these United States that are not citizens of it.

    For this reason they should not be legally allowed to donate money to vote for anyone except their own State Candidates and definitely not the the Executive [Pres. & Vice Pres.] The Privilege term is important because from the beginning of the U.S. Constitution until now and even in 1862 it points out who is and isn't liable to certain laws of these United States of America. This being said; these are the only American citizen "employee's" with "income" deemed payable to the federal gov't through the Internal Revenue Tax collected by the IRS.

    Again those being paid by tax dollars should not be allowed to donate to the entity that can increase their income or the amount of people so privileged to be 'employed' under them.

    While the donation portion of this posting is purely my opinion made from my understanding, and vast study of the history of these United States, of the what the founders deemed corrected..the laws governing the Tax liability of the American People to the federal government is not; it is factual and legally binding.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 5 months ago
    Holcomb--that is, the author of the piece--actually touches on an important element here. It says 97 percent of all political donations are going to the obvious big-government candidate. (Whether that's 97 percent of checks written or 97 percent of the aggregate amount of the checks, Holcomb does not make clear.) He says of course they are giving to Clinton, because they are much afraid Trump will fire the lot.

    But Holcomb misses one important element. It's one thing to say, "Trump has no reason to trust these particular government employees, so of course he will fire them, and hire his own men to fill their slots." But it would be quite another matter altogether to say, "So-and-so will come in wielding an ax to chop off the deadwood of government." Which of course is what John Galt would do, if anyone ever persuaded him to run for President and if by some chance he could win election. He would eliminate all the quasi-legislative and quasi-judicial bodies, and in fact every department except those of State, the Treasury, Defense, and Justice.

    Any discussion of limits on the campaigning activities, private donations, or voting rights of government employees, must take that into account.

    Note carefully: government employees' activities fall into three categories. The first--overt campaigning on government time--is already illegal. Research the phrase "Hatch Act" in any search engine. Under it, no employee may use a government copying machine to run off campaign flyers or posters, nor work on a campaign while on paid leave.

    Next would be the private donations. Since employment by the government is an act of mutual consent, it follows that the government may restrict private giving by government employees and their immediate families if they so wish. And maybe the people should insist upon that.

    Finally, as to voting: the late Robert A. Heinlein, in Starship Troopers, projected a society in which military or other government service members would not be allowed to vote while working for the government. "Why, if they let [members of a certain combat unit] vote, the idiots might vote not to [go on a combat mission]. Can't have that!" Of course, Heinlein proposed limiting the franchise to those who had completed a term of government service lasting two years or more--and did not propose to limit the types of service that would qualify one for the franchise. (For instance, terraforming engineers would also qualify, this although they were not military.)

    And United States history has examples of manipulation of "the soldier vote." Abraham Lincoln so manipulated the votes of soldiers and sailors in the United States Army and Navy in the Election of 1864. Barack Obama's critics lay the same charge at his door, especially as regards absentee balloting.

    And in this context, I must tell you all: Governor Terry McAuliffe of Virginia has implicated himself in a scheme, in Fairfax County, Virginia, to stuff absentee ballot envelopes with Democratic Party campaign materials, in clear violation of Virginia election law. I intend to raise this issue at my next opportunity to meet in person with certain members of the Virginia House of Delegates, with a view to bringing Articles of Impeachment against the governor for that offense.

    All that to say: the right of citizens to vote need not, in my opinion, apply to those who have a vested interest in the growth of government. But in any case, rules must apply to everyone, or they are not respectable at all.
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  • Posted by rbunce 7 years, 5 months ago
    A lot fewer government employees... then who the few remaining donate money to will be irrelevant.
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    • Posted by JuliBMe 7 years, 5 months ago
      It's never irrelevant if they are voting against their employer's (my and your) interests.
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
        What you are really pointing out, is that they have conflicting interests, because while they may ultimately work for us and we ultimately pay the bills, we're a long ways off in the chain, and we don't directly control either their position or their salary. We have very little power in the grand scheme of things.
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        • Posted by JohnConnor352 7 years, 5 months ago
          You are exactly correct, blarman, that there is an inherent conflict of interest there. But the solution, in a moral government, is not to further restrict human rights (two wrongs do not make a right), but to correct the origin of the problem...
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 5 months ago
    YES and their should be a limit on the number of government employees TOO!
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      I would support an amendment that says that the number of federal government employees maxes out at 1 in 1,000. At our current population of 319 million, that still leaves 319,000 employees. I would exclude the Armed Services or place a separate figure on them. Current figures place Federal government employment at 2.7 million. See http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/t.... Of course if they can only employ 1/10th of what they have now, it would mean they would have to gut programs like SS, etc. ;)
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 5 months ago
    Do they pay taxes? Do their kids go off to war?

    Here in California our governor just signed a law allowing incarcerated felons to vote. Haha!

    With around half the people in this country on the teet, I think we have bigger fish to fry...

    The government's bought. It's too late, folks...
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  • Posted by edweaver 7 years, 5 months ago
    It should not be necessary to restrict this. Our Constitution was intended to protect us against against the government. The problem is they pay no attention to the Constitution anymore.
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  • Posted by Casebier 7 years, 5 months ago
    Then the solution is that government employees not be required to pay taxes on their salaries, but they give up the right to say what their salaries should be, i.e. no vote in whatever jurisdiction that pays their salaries. If given the choice of pay taxes or vote, 99% would probably give up the vote.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 5 months ago
    It is pretty obvious that there was coercion involved. However, It would be unconstitutional to prohibit donations to your favorite candidate or party. Instead, with a bit more effort, track down the party who is doing the coercion and penalize them.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      Here again, however, is a case of the fox guarding the chickens. Who is responsible for law enforcement? The very same people involved in committing the original infractions. The only way effective enforcement is possible is impartiality.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 5 months ago
        Exactly correct.
        However, my impression is that we were discussing hypothetically. I answered that in the way of a reasonably uncorrupted government. Otherwise, there is no point to asking the question.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 5 months ago
    There are conflict of interest rules that should prevent the kind of shenanigans we saw with FBI Director Comey, but there's no trust that anyone will enforce the rules, as we've seen. I'm more in favor of complete transparency: anyone who donates any amount to a candidate will have to expect their name will be subject to public disclosure. That way it doesn't matter how much money someone contributes, as they won't be able to hide. With that condition, we have to outlaw PACs, which are another way influence can be hidden.
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    • Posted by edweaver 7 years, 5 months ago
      We should be able to hide if we want to. Not being able to hide is the best way to become targeted by government agencies like... any of them. It has happened plenty in my state.
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  • Posted by JohnConnor352 7 years, 5 months ago
    There should be absolutely no limitation on the amount of money any person can give to a political candidate, party, or cause. This is a freedom of speech issue.
    To make the argument that you would prefer government employees to not be able to make as much of a difference in election because they will vote for government is really exactly the same as people who oppose in the citizens United decision because it allows corporations to have more influence over government.
    The only way to fix the conflict of interest, while still respecting human rights, is to eliminate government employees
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 5 months ago
      Me dino's immediate response to blarman's question was a roaring no.
      That was a roar roared with raw emotion.
      That's not the Ayn Rand way of thinking things out.
      You are right. This is a first amendment issue.
      The self-serving greedy little rats do not have to think objectively and can donate up to whatever unconstitutional limits Big Brother may impose.
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 5 months ago
      So be it...no employees...problem solved...how about NO money in campaigns...media makes money no matter who they interview...equal time to each, make your own way around the country, town hall to town hall...nothing lavish...just You unplugged...
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      Thanks for your thoughts. The quandary is of course exactly as you point out: is there an unlimited right to expression through political contributions even in the face of an obvious conflict of priorities in the voting rights of government employees (as demonstrated in this article). I, however, don't hold to the notion of an unlimited right of expression and I take a jaundiced view of human nature with regard to government. I respect the Founding Fathers' skepticism of those who hold office, but I also note that they didn't place any restrictions upon government workers' rights at their time. I don't think they envisioned a federal government as large and intrusive as what we have now, either...
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      • Posted by JohnConnor352 7 years, 5 months ago
        All rights should be unlimited. As Rand would say, there is no compromise between a robber and his victim.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          That is simply not possible. Take the right to speech, for example, and the quintessential "fire in the opera house" case. All rights have appropriate expression - which is not the same as unlimited expression. Any infringement should fall under what in judicial terms is called "strict scrutiny" - meaning that there must be a specifically-tailored law that serves a compelling government interest and which proscribes a very limited infringement. The question is would any such restriction on the voting rights of government employees fall under that test of strict scrutiny?
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          • Posted by JohnConnor352 7 years, 5 months ago
            I did not say expression should be unlimited, but your rights should be. We must understand what a right actually is, however.
            Lets break down the fallacy of that classical argument:
            To begin, if there actually IS a fire in a crowded theater, then screaming fire could save people's lives. If there isn't you are acting fraudulently and possibly causing a panic and injuring people due to your false information.
            One does not have the "right" to harm others, and presenting false information is an act of coercion and force, like fraud. Therefore the latter example is not an example of the right to freedom of expression. It cannot be a curb on a right if it is not a right in the first place.
            Your arguments about strict scrutiny are arguments about law, not about philosophy, moral, ethics, or even politics strictly. That is mistaking the letter of the law for the concept behind the law. That strict scrutiny concept is intended to protect the concept of not violating people's rights, so we should not base arguments about whether a law or right or wrong, moral or immoral, etc on whether it specifically fits the "strict scrutiny" definition, but whether it protects rights or violates them.
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
              "If there isn't you are acting fraudulently"

              I don't disagree. I'm just pointing out that the argument (correctly rejected IMO) was that the offender claimed an unlimited right of free speech in that case. If the right is unlimited, it doesn't matter whether or not fraud or deceit were involved. Do you now see why the notion of an "unlimited" right is in and of itself a false argument? What you are really saying is that there is context appropriate to the expression of a right and that context matters. And I agree with you in that. What I am pointing out is that that very context is in and of itself a limitation on that particular right.

              Another example? Let's look at the right to vote. If the right to vote were unlimited, one would have the right to vote in every county in your state, in every state in the nation, and even in other nations. That's prima facie absurd. Why? Because context matters. Voting is restricted to one's own precinct within one's own nation. Unless you're a Democrat of course. ;)

              Yes, strict scrutiny is a legal term. But it very much also represents a philosophy: the philosophy of limited government. It qualifies from a very philosophical standpoint when the government may get involved in regulation because the underlying principles are 1) that rights do not emanate from government, 2) that government is a caretaker only (of rights), and 3) that government interference should start from the most restricted standpoint. This differs greatly from the current Progressive judicial philosophy of "the ends justify the means", of which the underlying philosophy is that 1) rights stem from government and 2) what the government giveth, the government is wholly justified in retracting. ALL law is ultimately philosophy in some way.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 7 years, 5 months ago
    I see this as a problem easily solved, at least if constitutional change is easy.

    What you do is still let everyone vote -- but any measure that would increase taxation or spending would require both a majority of all voters and a majority of net tax payers. (Which would require the voting rolls to show who is one.)
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      So you're saying that Congress could pass the measure but then it would have to be submitted by referendum to the voting public? It might work, but now you're placing a huge data gathering onus onto the public in general to determine who can vote on the referendum, leading us back to square one.
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      • Posted by $ jdg 7 years, 5 months ago
        Canada uses its income tax forms as its main method of voter registration. I see no reason we couldn't do the same, as long as it's not the only method.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          Huh. Didn't know that. Thanks for the idea.

          Who knows - it might even cut down on some of the dead people voting Democrat. ;)

          Do their forms also specify whether one is a citizen or alien? One of the huge problems facing this nation is of illegal voting by immigrants and other non-citizens...
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  • Posted by $ PhoenixRising 7 years, 5 months ago
    So, the "you" have some Constitutional Right to ban government (sic Federal Government) employees from voting because the "you" have determined there exists an "inherent bias to vote for more government as a product of self-interest." I would ask you to provide your scientific proof of that statement but will not since I already know you do not have any. If a person, be that person a someone who works for private industry or government (local, state, federal) can be either one of two types: A member of a herd; or, an individual who does not follow the herd. A herd member is a person who is one who will follow the will of the herd even if the individual does not desire or believe in what the herd wants to do. A non-herd member is an individual who will do their own bidding regardless of any pressure from any herd they are associated with. So... once someone begins to restrict "one group" of people from voting, and restricting "one group" of people from "donating" ... then who's next on the chopping block and where does it end? And, who are the people who decide who cannot vote? And, it is OK to restrict people from their Constitutional rights... as long as it is not you... correct?
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      The proof I presented was in the article. And it is no small measure to ask any teacher if they get pressured by their unions to vote for Democratic candidates more than more conservative ones. That's why union dues are such a big deal. Any kind of public sector work union is going to exhibit the same problems (which is why I think they should be illegal).

      Now, that isn't because I have discounted your concerns about where the infringement ends. I asked for more opinions because I shared your concern. What I'm trying to do is solve the problem identified by several Founding Fathers including Benjamin Franklin when he said "When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic." Effectively, that is what we have in the public/government workers unions and it is destroying fiscal constraint in government.
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      • Posted by $ PhoenixRising 7 years, 5 months ago
        First: Government employees do NOT vote themselves money. House of Representatives is the only body that can vote money; Senate must "agree," President must sign. Where in this does the "government employee" reside?
        Second: The teachers do not belong to the government. If teachers cannot, or better yet WILL NOT, stand up to their union, then that has absolutely nothing to do with government employees and how government employees will or will not vote. The "proof" that was presented in the article is bogus.
        Third: I know individuals who are teachers. In fact, my son is a teacher. I agree that pressure is placed on teachers to "vote" a specific way. So what. No officer of the teacher's union goes into the voting booth with the teacher when they vote. Again it boils down to: is the individual a "herd member" or a "non-herd member" or to put it a different way is the person someone who is willing to stand up for themselves or succumb to the will of someone else. And once again, that has nothing to do with a "government employee" and everything to do with all human beings.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          While technically you are correct, who presents the budget? It isn't the House, but the President. Who is the President in charge of? All the bureaucrats because they are part of the Executive Branch. And have you seen the last few budgets put forth by this President? He was asking for huge raises for most most public sector unions and they in turn were going to raise their dues which go back to primarily the DNC for election purposes. So I would argue that there is a lot more influence in that process than one may care to admit.

          Regarding the teachers, no, they are not technically "part of the government", but because they are almost all forced to participate in the teachers' unions (it varies from state to state) they become a part of the apparatus because of their dues. That was one of the reasons that court case about teachers' union dues was so important, because it was the case of a teacher arguing that she should be able to divest herself of the union because she differed politically and they represented things she disagreed with. (I'm not sure I heard the outcome). So regardless of how the teacher as an individual votes, their money is being used for a distinctly political purpose. The same thing applies to fire fighters and the police. That's why I think public sector unions should be outlawed - they are a conflict of interest. Look at any mayor's run. Why is there such a big deal to get the police union, the firefighters union and the teachers union to endorse you (along with the local paper)? Because those endorsements come with political clout and money.

          Should more people stand up for themselves? Sure. But when you've got a family to feed and a mortgage to pay, losing your job because of a political stand isn't really in the cards for most people.
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          • Posted by $ PhoenixRising 7 years, 5 months ago
            Ah...the "focus" of the original discussion has been lost, which was about "restricting a government individual from voting" because there is an inherent bias to vote for more government as a product of self-interest. However; concerning your statement on unions I totally agree that an individual should not be forced to participate. But again, that will also get back to the "herd" syndrome. That is, if the union exists it will apply pressure for the individual to join to be part of the "herd" or be ostracized as a "non-herd" member. BUT, do not penalize every member of a "union" by removing their ability to vote just because the union officials donate to one party more than another. Equate union members to the population of any State; equate union officials to that State's elected Congressperson or Senator, then I think it becomes apparent the issue is not with the member, the issue is with the union official and the union itself.
            So, as you stated, and I agree: "public sector unions should be outlawed."
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 7 years, 5 months ago
    Government employees should be allowed to donate unlimited amounts of money to Libertarian Party candidates. It's their right! :-)
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 5 months ago
    To do it fairly, you would have to not allow anyone who received most of their money from gov't grants, military contracts, gov't assistance, military or peace corp service, or any federal agency. It would be a question whether to count Social Security and Medicare benefits as income.
    You'd have to look at how much of people's primary clients' or employers' revenue comes from gov't contract to do the calculation. Few people would be able to vote.

    Despite that and the despite the inherent problems, I love the spirit of it. I don't love denying people the right to vote. But our current system seems inherently flawed because if even 20% of my earnings come from companies funded by grants, I have a strong incentive to ask my congressman to keep that money flowing. If the cut the program, maybe it would save every taxpayer 1 cent. They won't lobby for their 1 cent. I might grudgingly lobby to keep the grant, though. After all, I send them those quarterly estimates, and I want some of that money back. I can't unilaterally disarm. That's so wrong. It will cause the country to go bankrupt.

    I don't think a voting formula is part of the answer, but I'm open to radical suggestions to cut gov't.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 5 months ago
      That sounds like a recipe to incentivize people to get off Social Security and Medicare, and make their own way, as swiftly as possible. We must now see Social Security and Medicare as traps. Rand missed that in her analysis.
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      • Posted by ewv 7 years, 5 months ago
        Ayn Rand opposed both Social Security and Medicare. She was fighting against the passage of Medicare in the 1960s.

        But it is not good to punish people for getting back as much of the taxes they were forced to pay as they can. Unjust punishment is not "incentive". As long as the programs continue, people have a right to recover what they can. Punishing people that way while continuing to sanction and run the programs is obscene.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 5 months ago
      Sorry CG. "You need to be more explicit in Step 2." What is "most" of your money? Should you include the value in streets and roads, or the post office? What about proper functions such as the military, courts, police, and legislature? (Hate Congress; love my Congress(wo)man.) Would having a Purple Heart allow you to vote?

      I agree with your intention. I have worked as a contractor several times and one time, it was an election year and we got memos warning us not to wear campaign buttons. So, I get that; I understand.

      In Atlas Shrugged near the end, there is an altercation at the Ferris Persuader. "You're not allowed to have political opinions!" an officer yells at a soldier. But it is pretty close to reality. Talking politics among peers is perhaps unavoidable, no different than sports or sex, but like sex (and unlike sports), politics crosses too many social boundaries; and (more to the point) officers have power over enlisteds that silences the voices of those without "birds, bars, leaves, and stars." As a petty officer E-5 (like a buck sergeant) I often zip my lip when other people spout off their political opinions.

      But, being combat veterans, they should not be denied the right to vote. In fact, Heinlein suggested just the opposite: in order to vote, you must be a veteran.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 5 months ago
        In my crazy scenario, it would only apply to excludable things. It's hard to exclude the value of streets, so those don't get counted. For the post office, it's the difference between the ave of DHL, Fed Ex and UPS pricing minus USPS pricing. The Purple Heart would have no impact. Regardless of what you're getting paid to do, even fight to protect the country, you wouldn't be able to vote.

        I don't actually think this is at all a good idea, but I'm desperate for ways to limit gov't. There's a huge incentive to keep the spending plan that benefits one person and most no incentive for everyone who's paying half a cent toward it to keep their half cent.

        This is why I reject the stuff about moochers, as if there were a few evil people behind the problem. If you close a military base, stop subsidizing a college, stop a research grant, jobs go away. It's hard to explain that they'll come back and grow to more wealth if we return that money to taxpayers and let them spend and invest as they see fit.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 5 months ago
    There is no quandary. If you work for government, you have proven beyond doubt that you can't be trusted. Anyone who gets support from government should not be allowed to vote. Neither should anyone vote or run for office who can't pass a civics test including understanding the importance of individual liberty and every one of the Bill of Rights. (No need for term limits when blood sucking looters can't run for re-election.)
    That would leave less than 1 million voters and eliminate 99% of the current looters from running for office.
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    • Posted by ChestyPuller 7 years, 5 months ago
      I understand your mistake of lumping 'all' that work for the gov't, but as a retired U.S. Marine I worked for the gov't to protect its citizens and its Constitution and all that includes from those trying to harm or destroy it or them. Those that serve in this capacity are far more likely to be trustworthy. The same goes for most Police, Firefighters and the like, while the converse is the case in the 'political' side of the gov't where less are trustworthy and more are corrupt.

      When you add Union's to the gov't now you will also have many more being untrustworthy then not. But still, not all will be untrustworthy.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 5 months ago
      Sorry, vote down on that. I serve in the Texas Military Department in the Plans directorate of Domestic Operations which (1) guards the border and (2) responds to disasters.

      I would agree with what I hope is your underlying assumption (see elsewhere in this thread), but your blanket condemnation is unjust. Government has proper functions. If anything, paying more would attact even better people from the private sector. After all, We the People deserve the best servants that money can buy: soldiers, sailors, surveyors, lawyers, computer network security analysts, artists, musicians.
      See here:
      http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/20...
      and here:
      http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/20...

      In particular on the second, does not our Republic deserve the best historians to archive our narrative?
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      • Posted by JohnConnor352 7 years, 5 months ago
        You are correct that there are very valid functions of government, and that of course those individuals who perform those functions ought not be denied the rights to vote or speak politically with their campaign donations.
        However, artists and historians ought not be government employees. The only proper function of government is to employ the retaliatory use of force against those who initiate it against its citizens. That of a police officer. The military would fall into this category as well. Our court system (and I'd say likely the public defenders office as well) would be the domestic enforcement wing of this endeavor, but also to since rational disputes between citizens. And the only reason these functions should be relegated to government (and only government) is because they involve the use of force, which rightly should be the monopoly of government. That also means it should not involve itself in any endeavor in which force should not be involved, such as art, science research, historical records, education, food and drug regulation, etc.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 5 months ago
        If the services being "provided" are valuable then fund them through voluntary donations from the people who receive the benefit. Do NOT steal the funding from them at gunpoint.
        Boondoggles to Southeast Asia at taxpayers expense. Pay for it yourself if you feel it is a benefit to you. Stop looting from others.

        Thanks for proving my point with your vote.
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