Shrug - Perhaps conservatives could organize and invade Alaska and Hawaii, take them over and declare to the world they are now an independent country. It's obvious the current administration would probably only draw some red lines, and perhaps even announce later that they are going to "take action". I think this might be the last time such an opportunity will present itself with such a predicted results. The only thing that could stand in our way would be non-specific rhetoric. Sooner or later we're all bound to understand why we need a Constitution and a strong leader to enforce it.

No initiation of force.

But....some conservatives are the problem..

Not uninterestingly, there is something beyond shrugging – to aid in the self-destructive efforts of the looters themselves. Remember, the looters were the authors of their own demise; their world had to crumble before a new world could be (re)created.
While unpopular if not anathema to the egalitarian ethos, the reality is that the truly brilliant do not think just twice as fast and twice as accurately as the average person – they think differently. It is a qualitative difference, more than a quantitative one. The brilliant think in multiple and simultaneous modes, ignoring the convenient distinctions of domains of thought and knowledge. After four decades among brilliant individuals in the private sector, I set about to demonstrate this, creating a vetted instrument of measurement and accompanying dissertation, acting on the promise that it would be allowed by the local branch if the State Scientific Institute. Like Rearden Metal, it proved dangerous to individuals if it was wrong and dangerous to society if it was right. After a few minutes of reflection, I withdrew it from SSI consideration, and took it private as a monograph. The Ph.D. was salvaged by spending twenty-eight days writing a 444-page piece of party-line drivel; unanimously accepted by the faculty on first defense, it is now buried in the back-yard.
After a year’s “rustication,” I was offered a job at the SSI’s College of Educational Theology, the mantra of which is “all children can learn.” [“All pigs can fly.”] Tens of billions of looted dollars are spent repealing the Law of the Survival of the Fittest, preparing pseudo-intellectuals for pseudo-sciences. I have become Mel Brooks’ Max Bialystock in no danger of producing a hit.

...but they DIDN'T do their jobs half-heartedly. They were the BEST at their low-level jobs ... and that's why they never got promoted.

I've seen this phenomenon firsthand. Efficacy will get you nowhere fast. Game playing, manipulating, pretending like you are stupid or injured will get management to move you around so eventually you end up where you want to go in the company.

Lack of integrity will get you everywhere.

I ultimately see a gulch as metaphorical. same with the concept of "galting." However, brain drain is very real and that is EXACTLY what Ayn Rand herself did when she left Russia. You must pursue happiness individually and philosophically-it is rational to want to propagate important ideas. That takes a tremendous amount of time. first, you need the knowledge, second a delivery vehicle, third a system to continue educations, for yourself, and those important to you and others as well. Think of those who work for the Atlas Society. Some very smart individuals. They could make alot more income doing other things or perhaps they are pursuing other opportunities we don' easily see. In a sense, have they not galted? Certainly they live within the US, but is it possible they have traded better opportunities financially in order to do work they find more fulfilling and more likely to pay off for their overall happiness? outside of the box thinking is very important when discusses "gulches." When I read about seasteads or physical gulches, I always first look to the weakest link of the plan. Certainly, on the surface, there is romantic appeal. But with the physical "gulch" there is always a set of rules attached which read much like a homeowners association set of rules, bleh. and with seasteads, the focus is all on how to fit an urban center into a small footprint, the architecture and design overwhelming any true philosophical/political system.

you are assuming they are not working on other, maybe more important concepts. Really, cg, how long has it been since you've read AS? I think you have selective memory ;)

yes. I do not know who is dinging you, it's not me.

I guess that makes the monster a mind flayer, perhaps the most challenging of enemies in role playing games.

To me the Gulch is not a place but an idea. The same goes for the American Dream, it is not a place or a geographical spot, it is an idea of what freedom and liberty stand for. You can plant these ideas anywhere. It does not have to be in the US. It does not have to be a specific spot on the map. Wherever you are, if you have those ideas, then that is your Gulch or your American Dream.

It may be hard for some but for others not so hard. The most difficult thing is knowing you have the talent and desire to do more but doing more means getting to keep less. The effect of our progressive tax.

CircutGuy - The people in the book who "shrugged" did walk away from whatever it was they were doing that the looters were benefiting from. If you recall the conversation in Midas Mulligan's home, after Dagny's plane crashed into the gulch, Dr Hendricks said he shrugged when the medical system was put under government control and because he discovered that his patients believed that he owed them the privilege of operating on them.

Midas himself went on strike when he was ordered to give money to people who he knew would never pay it back. Judge Narragansett resigned from the district court because the very first decision he made that was overturned by a higher court was the case that ordered Midas to "loan" the money he knew would not be repaid.

Ellis Wyatt set his oil field on fire and joined the strike when new taxes were passed that only applied to successful businesses in one state and those taxes were going to be supposedly "redistributed" to "help" less fortunate businesses that were failing in other states.

While these and some of rest of the members of the gulch may have kept working in the same field they had before going on strike, they didn't go to the gulch with the intent of gaining greater riches than they had on the outside. They left "the world" hoping to find lives free of the looters that were sucking the life's blood out of them and their businesses. In the case of Ken Danagger who owns Danagger Coal in Pennsylvania, he decided to go on strike because the government wanted to tell him who he could sell his coal too and how much coal he could deliver and how much he could charge for it. So when he left just ahead of a judge who was going to throw the book away because he violated all three points, he was working in a foundry in the valley and was looking for iron ore in his spare time. He was just one example of somebody who was not in his old field, there were several more.

None of the folks in the gulch were getting rich, but what they did find was freedom and the richness of the soul that comes from earning what you were paid and keeping what you worked for - not giving 40-50% or more to the looters.

To the extent that those in the gulch were enjoying the peace of mind that comes from being free and not a government slave, yes, they were seeking a dream, but it wasn't the dream they had when they started their businesses in the outside world. I do think it's safe to say they were walking away from their dream outside, and the governmental interference that went along with it.

I like the route that Galt practiced in AS. He had his "day job" on the RR that placed him in proximity to Dagny and in the city where big business was happening. He had his secret lab in his apartment, where he could chase after his real mental goals. Lastly he had his place in the gulch where he could be with people who shared his own values and vision.

I try to emulate that as much as possible. I have my daily chores here on the farm (as we call our little place in the country) and I have a 30x50 studio where I pursue my art and every so often I head out with some hardware to spend some quality time with folks who enjoy things that go boom!
.

As I recall, philosopher Hugh Akston ran a restaurant and was so proficient a cook that Dagny Taggart wanted to hire him to work for her railroad before she realized who he really was.

I agree, but it's hard for people with amazing ability to work to their full ability in low-level jobs and stay they there. It's hard to turn off the desire to build things, do things more efficient, help more customers, etc.

When you walked away from "America" did you physically leave the country?

I think they did the low level jobs to their full ability. They just did not use their ability in the way that would have been most beneficial to the collective.

My definition of shrugging is doing enough to get by. In an essence, not living to your helppotential so as to not feed the monster any more than necessary. Keeping your self in the lowest tax bracket possible while trying to find ways to build wealth for the future.

And the American dream to me is quite simply just complete freedom. Freedom to choose how to live, what to build on property you own, what work to do, to travel freely from place to place without the cohesive effects of government. The freedom to succeed or fail of your own free will. Freedom, just like the Founders of this country had when they establish it.

But they weren't feeding the monster their brains.

I am skeptical of a gulch- physical community. it's like wanting to live on a kibbutz...or commune...go try that out if you'd like, but ultimately it is a fiefdom. to be recognized as a sovereign nation, you need to support nations who recognize freedom. Yours is falling behind the pack on that...

That was a nice set of definitions, CircuitGuy. I am technically still feeding the economy as a university professor. Many of the people I am training are international students. I have sold two businesses I helped start because I didn't want to feed the beast. I'd say I am a 4.2 on your scale.

I think the low level jobs were just to contrast their previous role in society, when others could get a free ride on their mind. In reality its impossible to not "feed the monster" at all, now that production, consumption, and ownership are all taxed. If not directly, then ownership is taxed by inflation.

I think sometimes that some of the literal interpretations of the Gulch that I read here on this site are a little naive and strikes me most often as a yearning for an Objectivist Utopia. You'll note that even AR didn't shrug to a Gulch. She continued to write and promote Objectivism at every available turn and wasn't terribly shy about it or the money she made doing so.

For me the description of the Gulch in AS was really about each individual's recognition, even if guided by Galt or others, that all the effort of trying to live and work with the principles of a man of the mind and keep those principles intact in the political and socio/cultural system they faced, was fruitless for themselves individually and for all others they impacted. That there was no way to do so without compromising those principles and at the same time allow the system to use and take advantage of them and their efforts.

For myself, I see the Gulch in my mind as a determination to maintain my principles in life, even when that results in less rewards. I simply refuse to become involved in or with or accept in my life those things that this corrupt system attempts to embroil me in. There are methods available and things to do that might best be described in the 1979 book, Alongside Night by J. Schulman, as countereconomics. I leave it to others to determine for themselves what that term means to each, but for me it's a recognition and celebration of one of the strengths of some of our founding generation. At the same time, there are people that can be educated and shown the extent of the loss of liberties and the multitude of problems generated from within our own government.

While many have chosen leaving the country in an attempt to find their own Gulch, many more have chosen to shrug in plain site. It just boils down to each individual's determination and willingness to live with their own principles in the best way that they can. A country or government in which an Objectivist can live their lives with full achievement and satisfaction, welcomed and appreciated won't exist in my lifetime or probably in the lifetimes of my sons. But each life lived to the maximum of Objective principles available to each, is a step forward.

I imagined that the Gulch was the place where they were free to focus on their dreams and they used it as a base to pull off things like disrupting the president's radio address.

I had forgotten about their taking low-level jobs. That part doesn't make sense to me b/c these were great people who would have been productive in any job. Maybe they slacked off and did the low-level jobs half-heartedly but that doesn't seem like something great people would do.