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Biofuels turn out to be a climate mistake -- here's why

Posted by $ nickursis 7 years, 6 months ago to Government
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Wow, 20 years of stupid, corrupt policies, fails to do a damn thing, except icrease the costs of food fuel, ruin billions of small engines, and then: ooopps...we were stupid. I think I heard a lot of people making these statements here (against the whole bio fuel boondoggle, I mean).
SOURCE URL: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinion/2016/10/05/Biofuels-turn-out-to-be-a-climate-mistake-heres-why/3611475690695/


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  • Posted by Lucky 7 years, 6 months ago
    I have not gone to the paper but the summary of it is deeply flawed.

    Yes biofuels increase CO2 emissions compared with fossil fuels.
    The planet is at about 400 parts per million at the moment, humans exhale 40,000 ppm, commercial greenhouses use 1500ppm,
    at 150ppm all plant life dies and all animal will follow.
    Should these madcap carbon-capture schemes, as favorably referred to by some on this site, become successful all life on planet earth is threatened.

    CO2 is beneficial not harmful, it has no effect on atmospheric temperature. Of CO2 in the atmosphere about three percent is from human activities. Its residence time in the atmosphere is 10 years (all studies have a range from 5 to 18 years except the UN IPCC which without quoting observations or sources gives 100 years).
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    • Posted by ProfChuck 7 years, 6 months ago
      Yes. There are natural carbon sequestration mechanisms in the biosphere and they maintain a safe balance between CO2 and Oxygen. It is not a good idea to screw with something that has worked for millions of years. When there is an increase in atmospheric carbon vegetation responds by increased growth to consume it. Most AGW models do not take this into consideration.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
      Lucky, I am not familiar with the science to dispute one way or the other, but I do believe the issue really is here that the government sold a boondoggle idea of "biofuels" being better for the "climate" and it was a lie then, and is a lie now, and has screwed the economy leading to rampant "undocumented" inflation (which they also lie about), and false figures. It is almost as if someone WANTED to both screw the economy (or benefit a special group = corn farmers) AND add to the CO2 content they were so adamant was a threat. So, why? And, what about all the fabrication (not that that is a new concept in our political system)?
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      • Posted by $ jdg 7 years, 6 months ago
        This wasn't the government's idea. It was bought and paid for by Arthur Daniels Midland, a large company that produces corn for fuel (and knew perfectly well that doing so actually uses more petroleum than it replaces, even if we ignore the destruction of engines).

        The eco-nuts are perfect dupes for the likes of ADM, since they see no enemies on the left.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
          Jan, but ADM is a conglomerate collection, like almost any large or super large company today. I wonder who was mixed into all those smaller companies, that then got blended together over the last 60 years or so, as it has been a similar trend in all other industries as well. If someone wanted to drive everything in a certain direction, and were one group, they could get control of a bunch of the smaller companies and as they get swallowed, they are now on the inside, place their own people and start making decisions. Long tern op, but ultimately control. Because the "independent from terrorists" is a sheeple driven populist idea. It was to make money, sell favors, and actually do more damage to our economy than the terrorists could.
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      • Posted by Lucky 7 years, 6 months ago
        nickursis- quite so.
        It is easy to get sucked into discussing the technical details.

        You say- 'It is almost as if someone WANTED '
        I would delete the word 'almost'.
        The green/environmentalists are tools of those who want more powerful central governments. The UN especially is a good source of pronouncements of these real objectives.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
          Agreed, but I do not believe we know just "who" who is. There is so much going on, but look at it all from high level and it all seems connected. Lends credence to some of the conspiracy theories.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 6 months ago
    This article has a lot of "true" data, but it is misleading, by summarizing the data, including the dominant, criminally wasteful ethanol to the mix.

    Corn ethanol is a complete loser as a biofuel. Sugar Cane Ethanol is far better, but not suitable for most of the US. Vegetable oil in a diesel cycle works fine, and regardless of transportation costs/CO2, is overwhelmingly the best solar power available in kW/acre. Straight vegetable oil (SVO) works fine. Waste vegetable oil i(WVO) s another, more limited supply.

    Vegetable oil in a diesel or gas turbine, is a responsible option, not the folly of greenie fools.

    No, I do not support AWG, but I do consider eliminating dependence on oil the overwhelmingly most effective defense against terrorism. As such, and only as such, I can see a reason for government involvement as military function. However, the rest of this nonsense, solar farm, wind subsidies, ethanol, and Prius's are self-righteous fascist bullying.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
      Many other options do, and could exist. This whole thing stinks of some grand plan by someone to manipulate on a very large scale. Also, the friggin ethanol trashes every small engine and makes them that much worse in other pollutants. A negative return, but that is not unusual.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 6 months ago
        I've never tried using gasoline with ethanol in my lawn mower or other small engines, and I'm never going to try it. I'll pay a few cents extra and never learn if ethanol would have damaged the engine.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
          I have had my weed whackers in sevreal times and every time the shop guy says get reg gas. The ethanol eats the seals and floats and clogs jets in small engines. In fact, 15% is max for cars and Oregon went to 20% last year supposedly, but I have not seen the labels change. I get reg gas for 3.59 and ethanol gas for 2.47, but I have switched to reg for small engines.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 7 years, 6 months ago
    Shhh. Don't let the secret out. Before I shrugged as biofuels business partner, I thrived on the guilt and stupidity of liberals. Then Obama moved such people to solar power (i.e. Solyndra).... Sigh.
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  • Posted by M35A2 7 years, 6 months ago
    As a former farmer, i like biofuels mainly as a way to stay away from foreign oil and it provided a market for the crops when we have surpluses. I don't buy into the crap about global warming anyway. I do not like the idea of using tax incentives for the fuels nor mandates to use them. In fact I burn waste cooking oil in my old army truck. No so much for any perceived environmental benefit, but because in the marketplace, its cheaper, and get roughly the same performance as petroleum diesel in the summer months.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
      Good for you.The ethanol thing I think was a scam to support Corn, as it is the primary source. It also screwed all the markets related to corn and it drifted it's skew into other commodities as well. People used to point to Brazil and their sugar ethanol, but it too has had issues.
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      • Posted by M35A2 7 years, 6 months ago
        Back when we first started using gasohol (as it was called back then) we had such a surplus of corn in the 1980's farm crisis that we started doing the ethanol thing as a way to utilize a commodity we had excess of and help boost our price. Now that the markets for corn products increased, it does make competition tougher. I still say ditch the mandates and tax subsidies to see if it is viable in the market.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
          Exactly, there is no need for any subsidies at all, they are all payments to special interests by people who have no claim to the source of the payments. Both parties have played that game and continue it. Free market rules would regulate the production with no problems.
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  • Posted by geraldkatell 7 years, 6 months ago
    Glad to see this analysis- at least some facts finally being aired. But of course the underlying thesis is still completely wrong. There is NO correlation between CO2 levels and global warming. This is borne out over the centuries and recently with no global warming for 17 years despite the increases in CO2 levels as opposed to the massive warming predicted by the "models" and Al Gore. Now that he has woken up to the biofuels farce maybe he will come around to the actual facts on climate change. Of all the many problems we face, this is not one of them.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 6 months ago
    Not even mentioning the poor allocation of resources and government looting that is preventing real solutions from being created, tested, and implemented (assuming that there is a problem to be solved at all.)
    GET OUT OF THE WAY! Let the free market work!
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  • Posted by minorwork 7 years, 6 months ago
    And if gasoline costs at the pump had just met the rate of inflation wouldn't that cost be a lot higher now? The price of corn on January 1, is it as high now as the rate of inflation would have made it? I think some premises of the OP need another look for their being assumed to make a point that does not follow from the facts of fuel costs at the pump and food costs at the market where the producers sell it. The rest? Fix the two assumptions made first.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
      Well, then the price of oil is at rock bottom if you are using that framework, which also means that supply outstrips demand, and we have no shortage. Also other technologies and reseves have been discovered (such as the huge discovery in Alaska this week). With all those new options, and an ever increasing yield of technology, the ruse of using corn ethanol, and the negative return on it's "global warming" ability, makes the use invalid. If anything kept up with the rise of inflation (since the Imperial government does not report it with anything remotely resembling honesty) has a lot of issues in itself, in that wages then, have been in a net loss of 5-10% a year for 20 years. The imbalance in market forces because of government meddling has skewed everything to where reliable data is in very short supply.
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      • Posted by minorwork 7 years, 6 months ago
        I use less money for pump gas today of my total income than ever. It really is a hell of a deal for me.

        For the high maintenance folk who like to pay a fortune to live on a Florida beach or have hotel businesses on the beach, well they likely are trying to inspire the rest of us to do what they think will help them NOT lose their ass from inundations they think is explainably related to CO2 proportions in the atmosphere only.

        Honolulu and other big cities, have terrible traffic congestion. Terrible until there was big rise in fuel costs then the gridlock eased. Increasing unemployment too eased the gridlock. Not rocket science methinks.

        Housing foreclosures high iaround 2008 when after an oil price gouge people would drive rather than pay mortgages down. Apparently and astonishingly I heard from those across the street who lost their house that they could afford to pay for fuel for a car they could LIVE in but not the house. Told to me while chain smoking and later died of lung cancer. Go figure.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
          Yes, you are relating a lot of the inconsistencies that exist, post government meddling. One reason I cannot subscribe to basic economic theory working in this morass they have created. Gas and oil do not trade at the levels equal to what they were, if we just factored in inflation, but also lacking accurate data is a handicap as well.
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          • Posted by minorwork 7 years, 6 months ago
            Well said. Are you really George Soros? I've looked over a bit of his philosophy gleaned from his study under Karl Popper that George calls Reflexivity. Based on acting without complete knowledge.

            Methinks political crony capitalism acts not on knowledge at all but self-serving goals.

            In the case of bio-fuels then what are the farmers to do with a removal of government subsidies of alcohol? Price of corn without it I wonder if it pay to farm corn at all? Would eliminate even "small" farmers who lease property as well as own who farm less than 5,000 acres perhaps. Annual data for the price of corn on January 1, is available and it seems to be the deal of the decade even compared to oil on the consumer side, but the production side? Efficiencies are STILL being honed what with adaptive to land quality application of fertilizers and chemicals coming from drones and such mapped to GPS coordinates and equipment automization.
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
              That is all true. But fear not, the Farm Lobby is probably as powerful as any special interest group, and they have a much a right to the pie as any other, in the current scheme. There is no way you will ever end the subsidies until ALL government "support" programs are eliminated. That will never happen under the current Imperials scheme, it is one of their primary weapons against the unwashed masses waking up and finding out there is life after largesse (or loot, as you will).
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              • Posted by minorwork 7 years, 6 months ago
                Two things happening in the U.S. Venezuala type of food supply issues and military shooting of civilians like in Kent State, would trigger some real shit like martial law. Food lobby, Farm lobby politicians respect the industry.
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                • Posted by $ 7 years, 6 months ago
                  Agreed, but now that the Trump machine fell into the ditch by not doing their homework and finding all the dirt he had laying about, we are certain to have the Beast in office, so with her corrupt ass in place, both items are probably inevitable. The well has run dry and her scrawny little claws will continue to scratch the tit until it bleeds....
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  • Posted by wiggys 7 years, 6 months ago
    not a mistake, as in the fact that co2 is required by plants so we are now giving the pants more of what they need so they can prsper
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  • Posted by Ben_C 7 years, 6 months ago
    This coming from a University of Michigan faculty member? Am I living in an alternate universe? I live in Ann Arbor where Bernie and Hillary are idolized. I image this guy's office has been moved to a closet and his parking space moved to somewhere in Ypsilanti. I still doubt that CO2 has much to do with weather but it is refreshing to see an academic challenge an established premise. Perhaps some of his colleagues will emerge from behind closed doors and support this guy. I'll stay tuned.
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  • Posted by illucio 7 years, 6 months ago
    I never liked the sound of Biofuels, especially since we already have a food crisis globally as to start using corn and other resources for more combustion. This result tends to be the case with the bureaucratic, politically correct yet none effective postures many times assumed by governments to say "we´re dealing with it" when they´re actually just creating another loop hole.

    It´s obvious that the world doesn´t need this kind of solution, but rather to investigate on more effective and renewable energies, as well as to learn to negotiate with the status quo that most likely invests in preventing other ways and/or solutions because, let´s face; the game is rigged. Don´t want to come off as too pesimistic here, for solutions have been found and efficient ways have already been proven, being held down and restrained by all the "red tape".
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 7 years, 6 months ago
    Just another example of why government central planning is always a bad idea. Politicians are never smart enough because they are driven by ideology instead of understanding.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 6 months ago
    I am outside my area, but I think it may be worse than this article suggests. Even setting aside the long-term costs of CO2 emissions, I'm not sure how much extra energy you get out of the process of growing corn, turning it to ethanol, and then burning it for energy.

    I vaguely remember an episode of The West Wing where the White House staff were having to evaluate which alternative energy was best. The ideas was "wow, this is so hard, and gov't officials who are not scientists have to listen to scientists and pick where our energy comes from." The show is right that that would be nearly impossible, but the solution is easy. If you somehow make people pay for the costs on the environment of the CO2 they emit, the market will find the right solution.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 6 months ago
      "I'm not sure how much extra energy you get out of the process of growing corn, turning it to ethanol, and then burning it for energy."

      That answer has already been tallied and it is a net negative. Producing ethanol costs more in energy than it produces. As a market side effect, it also drives up the place of corn and corn products and misappropriates land for corn production that normally would have been used for other crops, thus driving down their prices as well. The reach of these policies goes far beyond just trying to destroy gasoline-based engines.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 6 months ago
        Did you mean driving up prices on other crops?
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        • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 6 months ago
          Reading that again, I probably could have worded things better.

          Producing ethanol drives up the production of corn artificially, but since most is going to ethanol and being wasted, it drives up the price of corn and corn products by producing an artificial shortage. If the lands which are going to produce corn for ethanol were being allocated efficiently to other harvestable crops, the additional yields in those crops would drive down their respective market prices due to higher supply. So really all that is happening is that we are artificially and destructively raising prices on everything while gaining nothing.

          That better?
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          • Posted by Ed75 7 years, 6 months ago
            A sure way to sort out the propaganda from facts regarding "alternative energy sources" is to see if the government is involved in any way. Automatically, one may conclude that if private industry is not doing it's own independent development, something is fishy. To quote Rush Limbaugh, "until they can get a jumbo jet off the ground with alternative fuel, don't bother me".
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            • Posted by M35A2 7 years, 6 months ago
              They did with a Virgin airline plane. Used coconut oil based jet fuel. Worked ok, but there were some gelling issues at extreme altitudes. Navy had used some in their fighters. Warm weather operations seem to pan out. Polar climates still needs some work.
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