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  • Posted by ChuckyBob 4 years, 1 month ago
    Years ago the feds told BYU that they were going to yank their funding because BYU refused to have coed dorms. BYU's response was "Go ahead, we don't receive federal funds." I guess that some of the federal employees didn't pass their third grade math. They didn't realize that 0-0 doesn't make much difference.
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  • Posted by $ Snezzy 4 years, 1 month ago
    The USDA closed our petting zoo operations illegally about ten or fifteen years ago, merely by threatening us. They wanted to require us to install about $100,000 of fencing around our property for our petting zoo that brought in an extra each year of maybe $3000 gross. We could have fought it, but decided it was not worth the trouble.

    My wife and I are qualified by knowledge to teach classes at our local community college. We are not qualified by education, however, because we only have Bachelor's degrees. So instead they hired the mechanic who messed up our truck but has a MA in music. He teaches auto mechanics there. Some days I dream of starting Snezzy's School of Practical Mathematics. Other days I am wide awake.

    Maybe Donald can shut down the Fed Ed Dept. But i doubt it.
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    • Posted by fivedollargold 4 years, 1 month ago
      Regional accreditation agencies require at least a Master's degree in a related area, plus 18 graduate hours in the teaching field. Hard to see how a graduate music degree qualifies.
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  • Posted by DarcieSalmon 4 years, 1 month ago
    What have you heard about Hillsdale College located in Hillsdale, Michigan? It is a small private college offering a superb education. Students cannot attend using government money. I graduated from there in 1979. Smaller government, lower taxes, non- government interference in private enterprise, and free enterprise capitalism as depicted by Ludwig Von Mises and Adam Smith are the pillars of their economic premises. They would not sign the Title IX non-discrimination policy as required by the Feds as they have never discriminated from creation of the school in 1849. It's a great school. I am surprised the Gulch is not more engaged with them. Check it out please.
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    • Posted by preimert1 4 years, 1 month ago
      I've completed several of Hillsdale's on-line courses including Constitution 101 and the Federalist Papers. It filled a large gap in my education that I never received in high school or college as to the government is supposed to work versus devious ways it does currently. I fully support its president, Larry Arn and his faculty's goals to reach teach millions of folks on-line to enlighten them as to how our rights and freedoms are being chipped away. Our Constitution is a short but powerful document, but worthy of our support and protection. I take comfort that the nation will survive this current farce of a presidential election no matter who wins due to its strength.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 4 years, 1 month ago
      They are very active here and we heavily promote them in return. Many of us are students of their off campus programs . You came to the right place.

      There's another one down in Florida but the list is very very short.
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    • Posted by jdg 4 years, 1 month ago
      Hillsdale is still, to my knowledge, the only college in the US that refuses all forms of federal student aid and thus is not subject to DOE regulations.

      They publish a nice monthly conservative commentary which you can subscribe to at https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/ .
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      • Posted by fivedollargold 4 years, 1 month ago
        Bob Jones University might be another.
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        • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
          Bob Jones does not claim to be independent of Federal funding, but is irrelevant from serious consideration of educational institutions for its extreme religiosity. It is the overt, holy roller version of Hillsdale. Even the small biology department is explicitly based on Creationism.
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          • -1
            Posted by fivedollargold 4 years, 1 month ago
            Depends on the department, some of which are very good. They refuse government control even to the extent of declining regional accreditation. Thus, their graduates are at a disadvantage. You would be mistaken to assume their students and faculty are all holy rollers, as you call it. Nor are secular colleges free from dogma. Try opposing climate change on a secular campus or God forbid, making a conservative speech.
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            • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
              Look at the Bob Jones website and see for yourself what it is. It is notorious for being full-blown religious dogma. Please do not try to foist this nonsense off on us at an Ayn Rand forum.

              The home page http://www.bju.edu/ starts off with:

              "Build Faith. Challenge Potential. Follow Christ.

              "At Bob Jones University we inspire you as a disciple of Jesus Christ to push the limits of your own creativity, skill and faith—all for the glory of God. We infuse every course with a biblical worldview and strive to offer the best academic experience of any Christian university. Our vibrant Christian community will support you as you build your faith, challenge your potential and prepare to follow Jesus Christ."

              At https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...

              "Creed

              "We believe in the inspiration of the Bible (both the Old and the New Testaments); the creation of man by the direct act of God; the incarnation and virgin birth of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ; His identification as the Son of God; His vicarious atonement for the sins of mankind by the shedding of His blood on the cross; the resurrection of His body from the tomb; His power to save men from sin; the new birth through the regeneration by the Holy Spirit; and the gift of eternal life by the grace of God."

              They then go on to take dogmatic institutional "positions" on a whole host of topics based on the Bible, including Creationism against science. This is not education.

              Yes, "their graduates are at a disadvantage", to put it mildly.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 1 month ago
      Is it still in operation?
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      • Posted by Ben_C 4 years, 1 month ago
        Yes, Hillsdale is alive and well. I receive their newsletter and donate annually. It is a bright spot in an abysses of darkness.
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        • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 1 month ago
          Unbelievably happy to hear they dont take government $. What is their tuition?
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          • Posted by Ben_C 4 years, 1 month ago
            Not sure but given the quality of education cheap at twice the price. Hillsdale is one of Michigan's best kept secrets.
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            • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 1 month ago
              I don't know about the quality of education, but oh my god, what an awesome school. Giving the bird to SCOTUS and the Feds on funding? Amazing virtue! Just amazing.
              Thanks for turning me on to it. Too bad they don't have engineering.
              I'm going to point it out to my daughter, and see what she is interested (HS senior now).
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              • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
                Rejecting Federal funding is good, but they try to sell it as meaning what is taught at Hillsdale is independent of control in contrast to what is taught at every other college and university, implied to be controlled by the government. That isn't true. The curricula and content of specific courses everywhere is predominantly determined by the culture influencing the colleges own policies and choices of individual professors.

                Hillsdale's choice in particular to emphasize religion, social conservatism, and religious re-interpretations of history as inherent in its educational content is a steep price to pay in the name of an equivocation on "independence". There are wide differences in the quality and focus of different colleges and universities and the choice of where to apply should be based on what they do, how well they do it, and the difficulty of being accepted, not the false alternative of religion versus directly or indirectly accepting government funding through student loans or more (as in public funding of public universities or research grants to professors at private institutions). An engineering student, for example, should not decide between MIT and Hillsdale based on Hillsdale's advertising of financial independence from government.
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                • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 1 month ago
                  You may be right, but it sure doesn't look like they press religion in their Web page. Of course my information is <1hr of perusing.
                  An engineering student doesn't have to choose between HIllsdale or MIT. Hillsdale doesn't offer engineering.
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                  • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
                    Hillsdale Mission Statement: https://www.hillsdale.edu/about/missi...

                    The history and politics courses are laced with religious conservative re-interpretations, it shows up wherever philosophical values are https://www.hillsdale.edu/hillsdale-b...

                    Hillsdale is a liberal arts college but has majors in physics, chemistry, biology, and mathematics, but not specific engineering fields. Likewise, MIT has majors and minors in many areas other than engineering. Based on Hillsdale's advertising of "independence" as if it had a monopoly on academic integrity you wouldn't pick Hillsdale over MIT for any of them, though in many non-science cases it would be a false alternative and you wouldn't choose either if you want to avoid the statist progressivism on the one hand and the religious emphasis on the other.
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                    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 1 month ago
                      You and I are completely aligned on religion, but I still respect Hillsdales history and positions. They snub government oversight, and accept other/no religions. I'm not sure if they are underhanded, but I had to look pretty far in their Iprimis literature to find something religiously motivated (gay marriage). Its in there for sure.
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                      • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
                        It's history of resisting government intrusion is admirable but it remains that it is a religious conservative school by intent in its campus life and curricula. Imprimis seems to be mostly guest conservative lecturers.
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    • Posted by 4 years, 1 month ago
      I have heard of Hillsdale. It sounded like a good school. You are the first person I've heard from that actually has direct experience with the school. Glad it is living up to its reputation.
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    • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 4 years, 1 month ago
      I mentioned Hillsdale College in a post, some months back. My suggestion was that we would get a decent Presidential candidate from that school.
      My suggestion was shot down because of Hillsdale's "religious" leaning, which I was thoroughly unaware of, even though I've been getting Imprimis for several years. At no time did I ever feel the school was preaching at me.
      Regardless, I support Hillsdale and still believe they would turn out a superior Presidential candidate for this country.
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      • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
        You didn't say we would get a decent Presidential candidate from Hillsdale, you said that a degree from Hillsdale should be a requirement to be President.

        It isn't hard to see from Hillsdale lectures that they appeal to conservative religious premises.

        https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...

        Posted by Radio_Randy
        I say a college degree SHOULD be a requirement for President of the United States and it should come from Hillsdale College!

        Posted by ewv
        A background in religious indoctrination is not and should not be a requirement to hold office.

        Posted by Radio_Randy
        I hope that comment was not about Hillsdale...I only mention that college as it is one of the premier colleges that specialize in Constitutional studies.

        Posted by ewv
        You didn't just mention Hillsdale, you wrote that a degree from Hillsdale should be a requirement to be President. Hillsdale does in fact heavily promote religion mixed in with its history. Understanding history is very important, but no particular college should be a requirement and there are other options for learning history that are often better than a typical college. But the mixture of religious dogma with education is deadly and is not and should not be a requirement to hold office.
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        • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 4 years, 1 month ago
          Yes, you are correct, except for the "background in religious indoctrination". My comments were based on the solid Constitutional teachings of that college...not it's religious background. Just like if I needed a defense lawyer, I would prefer a graduate of Gonzaga University (a Jesuit school), because they turn out superior students.
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          • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
            Mixing religion with education is religious indoctrination. It is not "solid Constitutional teachings". A lawyer who tried to defend you with religion in a court because he doesn't know the difference would fail no matter how good a student he had been in accepting what he was told.

            Your statement that you were "shot down because of Hillsdale's 'religious' leaning" for a "suggestion ... that we would get a decent Presidential candidate" from Hillsdale is false. Hillsdale has a mission to promulgate religion and mix it with history in the name of education, not a "religious leaning", and you said graduating from Hillsdale should be a "requirement" for being President. That is why your post was rejected. Your misrepresentation of that is not honest.

            For those who already understand enough of history, philosophy and social sciences to know the difference between fact and fantasy and who can critically follow a lecture without being misled by biases, listening to some of the Hillsdale online lectures can be worthwhile if supplemented by wider critical reading. The same is true for many other sources of conservative political commentary. For students just starting out or those who don't understand what they are missing because of previous misleading education and propaganda, the religious mission of Hillsdale is destructive indoctrination in both content and method of thinking and content. Some of those steeped in or affected by religious conservatism who don't realize what Hillsdale is doing and how it is misleading and undermining education are actively promoting it without qualification as if it were the best source of education. It is not.
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            • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 4 years, 1 month ago
              I, respectfully, disagree with your premise. However, I would like to know which college(s) you prefer to see a prospective Presidential candidate be a graduate of?
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              • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
                They are not arbitrary premises. They are facts. You misrepresented your own post that stated that graduating from the religious conservative Hillsdale college should be "required" to be president.Religious faith is not education and not appropriate for government officials in their government roles. This is an Ayn Rand forum. Faith in religion is not the basis and standard for discussion.

                There is no preference for any college a president should have attended. We elect a president as an individual, not a college. Education is what one makes of it for himself and is a life long experience. There have been both good and bad people who graduated from, for example, Harvard, or no college at all. Attending a religious college like Hillsdale is not a preference, let alone a requirement. One may or may not get a good education in some respects from Hillsdale, but its promotion by religious conservatives as the superior college because it is religious conservative is wrong for the same reason that all religious conservatism is wrong as a philosophical and historical basis of this country.
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                • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 4 years, 1 month ago
                  You can argue my point(s) until the cows come home and, right or wrong, my opinion is still mine. I did not start this debate on religion and, frankly, was oblivious to Hillsdale's religious tendencies until you brought them into the fore. Therefore, please stop trying to paint me as some kind of religious zealot.

                  Thank you.
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                  • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
                    You can believe anything you want to. The fact is that you said that graduating from Hillsdale should be a requirement to be president and then misrepresented your own post and the response to it. It is also a fact that Hillsdale is a religious college, as you can see directly from reading its own Mission Statement and as otherwise publicized on its website and from looking at how they teach their history and other courses with religious conservative re-interpretations. It is so prevalent in the conservative movement, with or without the religious zealotry, that it can be easy to follow along without realizing the switch.
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      • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
        https://www.hillsdale.edu/about/missi...

        Mission Statement

        Hillsdale College is an independent institution of higher learning founded in 1844 by men and women “grateful to God for the inestimable blessings” resulting from civil and religious liberty and “believing that the diffusion of learning is essential to the perpetuity of these blessings.” It pursues the stated object of the founders: “to furnish all persons who wish, irrespective of nation, color, or sex, a literary, scientific, [and] theological education” outstanding among American colleges “and to combine with this such moral and social instruction as will best develop the minds and improve the hearts of its pupils.” As a nonsectarian Christian institution, Hillsdale College maintains “by precept and example” the immemorial teachings and practices of the Christian faith.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 4 years, 1 month ago
    The real problem was this was that ITT was very expensive in the first place. Both my father and mother taught a class or two there as part-time instructors. Most of the students were those who didn't do well in college in the first place, but could get government loans or subsidies to defray the costs of attendance, which could easily be $15K per year. But the other major portion of the student body came from vets seeking to re-train and enter the labor force. It used to be that they could get money as a perk of being a vet to apply to education and they could use it however they wanted. But as more and more educational places like ITT, Stevens-Henager, Brown Mackie, etc., sprung up, the vets started going to these places because they were more convenient and had much smaller class sizes. The problem was that they weren't accredited in the same way as the major players like traditional colleges and universities. So the Feds under Obama changed the rules about how vets could spend the education money to include only educational institutions with traditional accreditations. ITT isn't the only one about to go under, as my dad has been forced to teach undergrad math at the local major university because none of the three above have the student base to keep him employed.

    It's another reason why the Federal Government shouldn't be in the business of education!
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  • Posted by freedomforall 4 years, 1 month ago
    Reveals the fedgov's genuine concern with the alleged domestic shortage of engineers, scientists, et al.
    Close the schools, open the borders, enslave ambitious legal residents to socialism.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 4 years, 1 month ago
    They should go private. Hillsdale has always been private and their original purpose was to teach the constitution so..."Helloooo?" we could rule ourselves, know the law and hold politicians and government's feet to the fire.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 4 years, 1 month ago
    The mindset of the big statists is extremely socialist, as in government ownership and operation of everything. It's only natural that government agencies feel obligated to drive private institutions out of existence so that they can be replaced by government institutions. We're seeing that now with health care: the deliberately designed to fail Obamacare, destined to be replaced first by the "public option" (single payer), evolving to a National Health Service as in the UK.

    Government has taken over education as much as possible under current law, and when "free" college comes under government sway, the path to the destruction of private educational institutions will have been mapped out. Government will then have the ability to brainwash the young from pre-school through graduate college.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 4 years, 1 month ago
    Maybe Obama plans to send the students of ITT to become optometrists, with the displaced coal minors. The man is an idiot! Or, maybe he plans to import more engineers and tech people via his open immigration, and forget the US workers.
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  • Posted by fivedollargold 4 years, 1 month ago
    $5Au has a rather low opinion of the college for reasons other than the Federal action. However, his opinion is that the marketplace should decide ITT's fate, not Obama bureaucratic slugs.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 4 years, 1 month ago
    ITT abandoned people half way through, or almost completed their courses, wasting all the time, money, and energy put into those courses. Some other private colleges in our area have volunteered to take up the slack if certain arrangements can be made. Hopefully it can be worked out, otherwise those poor souls are screwed.
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    • Posted by jdg 4 years, 1 month ago
      I know someone who went there and finished, only to discover that his degree was useless to find a job.

      I'd like to see someone do an objective rating of what fraction of students at every "college" (1) graduate and (2) get better jobs after graduating. I suspect that most of the colleges that have had recent protests -- even big ones such as Harvard and Stanford -- now have, or soon will have, pretty rotten results in that regard and the market should put them out of business.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 4 years, 1 month ago
        jdg:
        That's been going on for quite a while. A newly minted college graduate nepotism aside, has no more chance at getting a good job than high school graduates 20 years ago. Maybe even less.
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  • -2
    Posted by fivedollargold 4 years, 1 month ago
    Who appointed ewv the arbitrator of what can and can't be said here?
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    • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
      The purpose of this site as an Ayn Rand forum was determined by those who built and own it. Ayn Rand was not a conservative. Anything posted here is subject to challenge and discussion, especially when it is contrary to the purpose of the forum. You should not be surprised by that when you try to defend something like Bob Jones religious dogma in education https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post..., which is the opposite of Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason and individualism.
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      • -1
        Posted by fivedollargold 4 years, 1 month ago
        This, is Galt's Gulch Online.
        OUR PURPOSE

        We have ideas to spread - We're passionate about Ayn Rand's ideas and we hope to assist in their propagation by engaging in some inspired conversation.

        Your attempt to shut Fivedollargold down with comments not in evidence, is contrary to our purpose (see above). He did not "defend" religious dogma, but pointed out that uninformed blanket statements simply reflect badly on the ignorant troll who posted them. Fivedollargold has been to the BJU campus, hired two of their faculty (including one lesbian), and knows several of their graduates who are courteous, fine people. Saint Ayn may have been an atheist, but Objectivism isn't about religion; it's about Producers and Moochers. Try reading Atlas Shrugged carefully next time.
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        • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
          Atlas Shrugged is a philosophical novel describing and illustrating Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason and egoism. As a consequence it emphatically rejects any belief in the supernatural and faith. This is well known. So is the fact that Ayn Rand emphatically rejected religion in politics, specifically religious conservativism, and explained why.

          Atlas Shrugged is not about shallow conservative slogans reducing it to "producers and moochers" pretending there is no philosophical base and no body of extensive explanation provided by what you deride as "Saint Ayn" who "may have been an atheist". You do not snottily tell those who know far more about this than you to "try reading Atlas Shrugged carefully next time". If you want to learn what Ayn Rand's philosophy is that made Atlas Shrugged possible, start with this: https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...

          Bob Jones, with which you have been associated and are promoting, is well known and well documented as a dogmatic religious institution in addition to tying religion to conservative politics. Links and quotes from the Bob Jones website have also been provided here. Your denial is dishonest. It is the worst of the worst substituting for a rational college education.

          Your defiantly personal and loutish insults would be enough to justify removing you for violating the guidelines here. Your insults and promotions of a religious institution are not "inspired conversation". You are not a "like minded individual". This is not a place for religious conservative militant activists to promote their anti Ayn Rand ideology and its institutions with contempt for Ayn Rand while rudely insulting those who reject the attempted takeover as being what you call the "trolls".
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          • -2
            Posted by fivedollargold 4 years, 1 month ago
            If ewv had more than a superficial knowledge of Objectivism, he or she would realize that it is in many ways a highly conservative philosophy, which emphasizes minimal government, individual achievement, and the value of work. But of course, as a Moocher here in the Gulch, she or he is just another lazy philosopher wannabe spouting unimaginative, reactionist tripe, who advocates suppression of free speech that our great mentor would recognize from her days in the Soviet Union.
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            • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
              Ayn Rand's philosophy is not "highly conservative"; she explicitly rejected conservativism. "Emphasizes minimal government, individual achievement, and the value of work" is not a philosophy. You have already been given a link to where you can read what philosophy is and what Ayn Rand's philosophy is in particular. Ayn Rand's philosophy is what she said it is, not whatever you want it to be for your own agenda. Rejecting your nonsensical misrepresentations, and objecting to corruption of this forum with militant religious conservatism while insulting and sneering at Ayn Rand and those who know what her philosophy is is not Soviet "suppression of free speech". Please take your juvenile insults and misrepresentations elsewhere. There are plenty of places on the web where that mentality is expected and encouraged.
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              • -3
                Posted by fivedollargold 4 years, 1 month ago
                As usual, the Moocher makes representations not in evidence. Fivedollargold suggests ewv put on his verjuice-stained blouse and take a couple of reading courses at his local community college. Then, with improved reading skills, reread Atlas Shrugged and post an essay demonstrating her newly acquired critical reading ability. On second thought, a writing course is also recommended.
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                • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
                  The quotes are from fivedollargold and BJ itself. They are not "representations not in evidence" as he continues to dishonestly misrepresent. He does not address that content, substituting instead personal, demeaning insults showing that he does not belong here.
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