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Scientists Change Their View on Space: It Is About Time

Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 7 months ago to Science
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Of course you'll never hear this in lamestream news or publications...it's spoken of softly in dark corners these days.

"While I endured many years of frustration, now I can enjoy and take pride in the fact that I have been trying to promote a concept that has been proven to be correct."
SOURCE URL: http://www.salem-news.com/articles/march312013/science-answers-ec.php


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  • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 7 months ago
    Whoever demoted to your title to a zero must have taken some offense to the theoretical speculation I found interesting.
    +1 from old dino.
    We all have benefited from those who think outside the box. Light bulbs and if men were meant to fly etc.
    This theory has the potential of enhancing space travel and predicting earthquakes.. Or maybe not.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
      There was no thinking of the out box. Edison and others who invented electric lights as well as those who came before connect what is known about reality to whether something better might be possible. The ancients dreamed of flight after observing birds in flight. It is not the same as thinking out of the box to solve a cleverly contrived puzzle where the solution is purposely hidden from the solver.
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 7 months ago
        So you are saying that this electric universe theory is "a cleverly contrived puzzle where the solution is purposely hidden from the solver."
        I'm just an old dino, who would have chopped apart the Gordian knot not for cleverness, mind you, but out of sheer roaring frustration,"
        So please explain further.
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        • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
          No, I am saying that in science when someone says that you have to think out of the box, you probably have come upon a religious minded individual in his little trance state selectively thinking of some profound new discovery, that you are told that you need to open your mind (like being told to open your closed mind to know God), to see what I am saying about the workings of nature. I am saying that thinking out of the box, if useful, might get you out of that boxed in trance state or help in solving contrived brain teaser puzzles. Nature is not that kind of brain teaser.
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          • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 7 months ago
            You must be trying to say that you are skeptical of the article and perhaps agreeing with it too.
            If so, that's OK by me.
            +1X2 for having the right to your opinion.
            Me dino be big on free speech.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
      Been involved with the electric universe theory for a few years now and Ben, along with other brilliant scientist from http://suspicious0bservers.org are predicting 7 point earthquakes with amazing accuracy via the sun, coronal holes, planetary alignments and out going long wave radiation-(pin points the area on earth to be effected)...New phone and computer app coming out soon.
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 7 months ago
        That's a very impressive link!
        That's how you prove theories. With proof.
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        • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
          But that proof has to be with evidence and some plausible connection on how that evidence relates to the hypothesis and then the hard part of placing the theory in an iron clad scientific notation that can be checked by other investigators and not just some come see what I think I have discovered that no one wants to look at, so I feel picked on!
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
            No worries mate...charlie brown your not.
            (an old song: "why's everybody always picken on me" "charlie brown") Don't know if that came from the Peanuts" comic strip or the other way around.)
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 7 months ago
              The name came from the comic strip the song came from the Coasters Fee Fee Fi Fi Fo Fo Fum. I smell smoke in auditorium Charley Brown. Charley Brown He's a clown tht Charley Brown he's gonna get caught Just you wait and see "Why is everybody always picking on me."

              Nothing wrong with long term memory.

              Who walked inthe classroom ***
              Who called the English teacher Daddio?

              Among other great songs from my yoot.
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  • Posted by Maritimus 7 years, 7 months ago
    Hello, Old Ugly,
    I read the article you are pointing out and to my mind it contains an unusual number of nonsensical statements.
    Nothing personal, please.
    Stay well.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
      Well the satellites confirmed what this guy is saying and yes, it's not aligned with the lamestream...but as much work yet to do here, it does show the lamestream hasn't got it right...they still live in the gravitational model, which seems to us now days to be just as nonsensical...so it's nose to the grindstone in all directions while the Electric Universe model replaces current thinking.

      I was reading an article last night that talked about the extreme magnetic fields needed to keep plasma energy suspended in a fusion reactor. That is the difference between Earths magnetic fields and the suns...certainly not in the same league.

      But again...lot more work needs to be done here...this is only the beginning.
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  • Posted by Watcher55 7 years, 7 months ago
    Er.... more fallacies than you can poke a stick at. I don't think it helps the cause of freedom to align with crackpot bandwagons just because they're "mavericks".

    The Sun's magnetic field, and its role in sunspots etc, has been known for yonks. Some useful background here: http://cse.ssl.berkeley.edu/segwayed/...

    To say that because the activity of the Sun - a giant ball of plasma - is related to magnetic fields that therefore so is the Earth - not plasma - is bizarre.

    For the sake of not wasting time, energy and credibility, honing one's "crackpot antenna" is a useful exercise for all.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 7 months ago
      Stellar magnetic field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar...
      *A stellar magnetic field is a magnetic field generated by the motion of conductive plasma inside ... Stellar magnetic fields, according to solar dynamo theory, are caused within ... star to the surrounding space, causing a slowing of the stellar rotation rate. ... Planetary nebulae are created when a red giant star ejects its outer ...
      Earth's magnetic field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's...
      Earth's magnetic field, also known as the geomagnetic field, is the magnetic field that extends from the Earth's interior out into space, ..... A Coriolis effect, caused by the overall planetary rotation, tends to organize the flow into rolls ... Magnetometers detect minute deviations in the Earth's magnetic field caused by iron artifacts, ...
      Magnetism in space - Magnet Man - Cool Experiments with Magnets
      www.coolmagnetman.com/magspace.htm
      The study of the magnetism found in the planets and the sun of our solar system has ... the strength of the magnetic field of the earth out in the space around our planet, ... ("Northern Lights") is caused by the Earth's magnetic field and its interaction with ... of it, has shown that magnetism plays a major role in the life of our star.
      Magnetic Fields - Astronomy Notes
      www.astronomynotes.com/solarsys/s7.htm
      May 11, 2013 - A planet's magnetic field forms a shield protecting the planet's surface from energetic, charged ... Aurorae seen from the Space Shuttle courtesy of NASA. ... It probably has a liquid conducting interior for a couple of reasons:.

      Good enough for me not being an astrophysicist. I leave that to Bryan May
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      • Posted by Watcher55 7 years, 7 months ago
        Yes, the Earth has a magnetic field... not sure what this has to do with the linked article however, which claims that the Earth's magnetic field causes earthquakes and makes frankly bizarre statements like "it may take another billion years before the Earth becomes large enough and the magnetic field becomes intense enough to become visible to the naked eye."
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
          Laughing!!!...Reread between the Brackets:

          [Many scientists believe in “what you see is what you get”. If they wait to see the Earth’s magnetic field current lines of force like they can now on the Sun before they recognize their importance,]
          " it may take another billion years before the Earth becomes large enough and the magnetic field becomes intense enough to become visible to the naked eye." - I know, his humor is a bit obtuse.
          Laughing my butt off...This is a slam against the scientists that believe "what you see is what you get".
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          • Posted by Watcher55 7 years, 7 months ago
            It makes no sense even as a joke. Since when have scientists literally said "what you see is what you get"? We knew about atoms long before we could see them. If not literally, then it is just the requirement for objective evidence.

            Again, the effect of strong magnetic fields in a giant ball of super-hot plasma has nothing to do with the effect of weak magnetic fields on a ball of rock.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 7 years, 7 months ago
    Hello Olduglycarl,
    Have you seen Thunderbolts of the Gods? It is related to your story.
    I think some may find this very interesting. It is about the massive influence of electric currents and magnetism being more predominate in our universe than previously considered.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AUA7...
    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 7 months ago
      Never heard of modern electrical cosmology until today.
      Part of my reason for coming into the Gulch was to learn. But to learn stuff like this?!
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
        If having a mind means integrating knowledge into wisdom then why not go alllll out and integrate everything...in one way or another it all connects to create the BIG puzzle picture...right?
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        • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 7 months ago
          Right, me old dino ain't complaining.
          Ah, reading what I wrote, I see it can be construed that way That last sentence..
          I was just expressing my surprise is all.
          I have been learning a wide assortment of stuff in the Gulch.
          This new approach at cosmology could be on to something really big.
          Revealed in the video ObjectiveAnalyst submitted, Albert Einstein admitted to some perplexing thing that seemed to fall short of his calculations.
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
            Once you get a sense of this work you might begin to understand why I see quantum physics the way that I do...micro/macro ideas...it all ties together and so far, they haven't missed a beat; proving what is already known and not having to adapt the thinking on things that didn't fit like the Gravitational folks have.
            I was chastised for saying that the "Scientific World is about to be turned on it's ear" and we'd be on our way to really getting a sense of how existence works. Now, maybe some that are willing to see,.. why I said that.
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            • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 7 months ago
              I'd love to see a new and improved Scientific World get some of us big time off this planet.
              Back in the 60s I was reading magazine articles and admiring speculative illustrations that had us colonizing Mars before now.
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              • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
                Yea, I was a big fan of that too...couldn't wait for the future to arrive...until I was introduced to: The Naked Communist, 1984 and Atlas Shrugged - although I couldn't fully appreciate AR until the turn of the century when I read Mark Hamilton's manuscripts (Neothink).
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    • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
      Just have care when believing fringe science. If you are not an expert in a subject, there is no good reason to pretend that you understand a subject. Especially when it comes to quantum physics and general relativity and simple things like space and time or space-time when the finite speed of light enters the study.
      I will be nice and not refer you to Uncle Al but just reference you to:

      http://www.crank.net/physics.html
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
        No belief systems here, just considerations knowing full well that knowledge will evolve closer and closer to what is. We don't have a lock on it and each learned lesson and each observed circumstance with better and better Technology to observe it will enhance our understanding of things. Remember, there is a bit of truth, a bit of value in all things, otherwise, those things would never have a leg to stand on.
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        • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
          Yes as long as "all things" are existing things that can with those new instruments be found out so like with Richard Feynmann you get the pleasure of finding things out.
          As for value in all things, that is true only with respect to living things. Otherwise, there is no value to the Universe.
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
            No value to the universe...not sure I agree...what about energy and resources.
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            • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
              Value is a conceptual existent and requires a conscious mind to do the valuing. Non-conceptual beings do not value, but a conceptual being can see that it is possible to that something might be considered as being of value to that life form. No non-living existent can value anything. Perhaps you should have specified that the value was to life, but there certainly is stuff that is not valued by any life, say internal to a black hole or an atom at the center of the Sun.
              Without life there is no value.
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              • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
                To my mind, Just the mention of value implies life, but I guess, like so many writers fall trap to, me most of all, is that not everyone sees things the same way. Come to think about it, that's mostly a good thing, just tough to articulate for each thinker and seer.
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      • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 7 years, 7 months ago
        Hello Irshultis,
        Sage advice. It is wise to be skeptical and I will neither accept blindly, nor dismiss out of hand interesting theories not yet proven fact or fiction. After all, it was once accepted scientific theory that the sun revolved around the earth... And Einsteins general theory of relativity was not given much credence until 1919, when during a total solar eclipse, Sir Arthur Eddington performed the first successful experimental test of note. :)
        Yes, it may be fringe science, but it is an enjoyable muse, so long as one does not assert it as fact.
        Respectfully,
        O.A.
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        • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
          I treat it with mental question marks as I do with science fiction and TV programs and what others relate to me. I still have some room left for more question marked stuff. There is a time when a hypothesis should be discarded, when facts do not support it. Suppose that a hypothesis dealing with biology clearly points to something that should be observable but cannot be seen when looking for it. Do you just let it pass when the author, of what he now considers to be a theory, tries to get by with saying that the posited observable may not be seen all the time. No you don't. The theory should be sent back to a hypothetical state by making changes or discarded completely if not fixable.
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 7 years, 7 months ago
            I understand. I look at these things as potential to trigger a thought in the imagination of scientists specializing in the field that may lead to a real development or breakthrough. In and of themselves they may be flawed, but they might inspire. Certainly when "facts" contradict a theory it should be discarded or refined, if possible, to be congruent with the facts. That is good science.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 7 years, 4 months ago
    From the article in http://www.salem-news.com/articles/ma...

    "Since the very same magnetic field current forces on the Sun create the most powerful explosions of the solar system, this is the only force capable of causing the incredible movement of land mass for many miles around the earthquake site. This concept can be proven when you align two magnets of like polarity. They will suddenly and violently flip to their common positive/negative polarity state even while you try holding them in position."

    I am working with a student right now toward the development of a model for the aggregation of a set of colloidal magnetic spheres into larger structures (typically rods, then either random arrays of rods or parallel arrays of rods, and then condensation into bulk structures) in the presence of a charged fluid suspension. This not only is physically an approximation for nanoparticles, but also for celestial bodies as well.

    Any questions, comments, and/or recommendations you might have on this topic are most welcome.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
    Where in the article is there anything about "Scientists Change Their View on Space"?
    Also, what is lamestream news or publications and where are those dark corners where it is spoken of softly these days. I must get out more and visit some of those dark corners.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
      That would be a good idea, I seem to find those corners even though I've no right to.
      Understand also, I am not in "belief" mode, I just "see" that there is some value here...and laughing, hoping I am alive to judge some of it valuable...addressing your specificity concerns...(just teasing) Not picking on Lil' Abner...(still laughing).

      PS. agree, it's a lousy title for the article...so many are these days.
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  • Posted by 1musictime 7 years, 7 months ago
    Hi:

    Time may be a derivative of the action of things. It may be a derivative. It may be animation by a certain disiance.Then ascribe like a length from point or area A to point or area B.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
      The idea that time is a measurement of motion is correct. There is no stuff out there which is time.
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 7 months ago
        Exactly...only a measurement is my thought...Read a Masters thesis with the title: Time is a measurement between large and small events...seems to me, as you state, that would infer motion of some sort.
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        • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
          Notice that when you measure motion or for that matter, any kind of change, that in order to describe that change some time factor in needed as in velocity, power, energy, momentum, etc. That is in the real world. In mathematics, reality related calculus, which is the mathematics of change, has time in the differential equations . Where time is not explicitly given, such as a changing variable, there is a kind of hidden time factor, in that, if the variable were real, it would take a time factor to have a variable pass through a range of values.
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          • Posted by ewv 7 years, 4 months ago
            The spacial gradient, divergence and curl are all spacial changes expressed in calculus, not change with respect to time. Differential equations often relate change in time to spacial change, such as the classic hyperbolic (waves) and parabolic (evolution) partial differential equations of physics.

            Change in time is one kind of change, and physical motion is one kind of change in time. But dynamic change of a process is always a measure of time and is the fact that gives rise to the concept time. Non temporal change is part of the broader idea of difference, which need not be a process. Space and time are both relational, not 'things' or 'stuff out there'.
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            • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 4 months ago
              In the physical world, not the conceptual world of mathematics, time is at least implicit in any physical change or motion since change has a duration. Though the gradient, divergence, and curl are defined in partial derivatives of coordinates, change in a coordinate has an implicit time. Nabla f(x,y,z) = g(x,y,z) gives a rate of change in the real world due to change related to some standard process. There is no instant processes in nature. Thus g(x(t),y(t),z(t))

              Correct in last sentence. I would say bad metaphors for 'in time', 'through time', 'flow of time', etc.

              Just remember that concepts like mathematics occur only in brains and can not be reified. They just, in some sense, model reality or some imaginary reality.
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              • Posted by ewv 7 years, 4 months ago
                Change from place to place means different in one place in comparison with another. What each is in comparison with the others is fact, without regard to temporal processes at all under static conditions. There is no time dependence. The duration of existence is irrelevant to the comparison.

                If you are thinking of the time in looking at or considering one, then the other, with a duration for each, that is the time inherent in any mental process, not the object of the knowledge in external reality. All concepts are only in our brains; without humans, concepts would not exist at all, but the facts that give rise to them do. The knowledge they provide is not fantasy, concepts refer to the reality "out there". That is not reification. They are knowledge of reality, a grasp of reality, not a "model" of it in parallel with reality.

                Time is implicit in everything as long as there is some motion somewhere. So is every other non-essential feature of the referents of concepts implicit in the meaning of our concepts even though it is omitted as non-essential and left only implicit in the concept. This is the case for spatial derivatives; they pertain to measurements in space without regard to time. Mentioning that time is implicit in everything because everything endures to some degree does nothing to clarify the meaning of spatial derivatives. You could say the same for any concept and it would elucidate nothing other than the general principle that all concepts referring to the their units in reality includes everything about the units: existence is identity. The essence of spacial derivatives is change with respect to position with time irrelevant.

                Each place at a different position may be changing from one moment to the next, but that is change with respect to what it was itself at that place, not the comparison between places. A beam may be in static equilibrium or moving, as in a vibration, but the displacement and stresses of a bent beam in one place are different than in another, which is what the change the (4th) derivative with respect to distance along the axis represents. The different positions are linked through the spacial derivatives of the displacement because the stresses depend on the rate of strain, which is the gradient of the displacement.

                A static beam as an entity is itself not changing, it's just sitting there; the rate of change represented in the spacial derivative refers to positions along the axis describing the spacial variation in static characteristics within the entity, which is part of its identity.

                If it's a partial derivative in dynamics, then it's the change with respect to position explicitly at the same time. But that is just the meaning of 'partial derivative' for functions of more than one variable. The time dependence is part of the meaning of the function, not the meaning of spacial derivative; the partial derivative is restricted to one kind of change in the function. The only time derivative, if the beam is moving by changing shape represented by time-varying displacement, is for each single position -- the 2nd derivative representing acceleration, which relates the change in shear and bending from one place to the next instead of a static load varying only by position. Likewise for all the classical equations for vibrating strings, membranes, diffusion, acoustics, Maxwell's equations, etc.
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                • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 4 months ago
                  Thanks for the reply. I seem to have been stuck in seeing reality, from my temperal point of view, as it changes rather than considering it as a static thing at some point of time and how it is at different points relative to other points at that time. That is only possible coneptually and not by any real set of measurements, which only can be done temporally, on a real body But analysis spacially by continuous means would imply that the reality is continuous so that the calculus can be used. That continuity may only exist in conceptual form while objective reality may be discrete enough for very accurate calculations .

                  I was using model very loosely with concept formation as a mental representation of objective reality and not as a dynamic-runable model. It in no way is reifiable in objective reality and only exists within a brain and most likely only in a brain capable of conceptual reasoning on mental content.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 7 years, 7 months ago
    It's important to realize that while the temperature in the solar corona is high, in the millions of degrees the actual amount of heat energy is relatively low. You need to understand that what we call temperature is determined by the velocity of the particles involved. (Boltzmann velocity) It is also a mean free path problem. The fact that the corona is a plasma embedded in a magnetic field complicates the problem further by constraining the degrees of freedom.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 7 months ago
      http://www.crank.net/physics.html

      He does not seem to have a firm understanding of physics like some of those on the crank.net.
      Some things stood out. The Sun's atmosphere has a higher temperature than the inside where fusion takes place. Magnetic field swirling around electrical current. It is normal to the current and most likely is not swirling. Takes an idea and just runs with it making up a good physics sounding yarn.
      Shows every sign of crankiness where his ideas are dismissed by established scientists and no one will listen.
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