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  • Posted by ProfChuck 7 years, 8 months ago
    I have been working on interstellar probe studies since the early 70's;

    (http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=198...) I am C. Ivie

    The Centauri system was one of our study samples. It is a trinary star system consisting of Alpha Centauri A and B as well as Proxima Centauri. It lies about 4.3 light years away from our solar system and planets have been detected around all three stars.
    In our initial studies we realized that propulsion presented a major engineering challenge. We initially considered a high specific impulse ion drive powered by a 10 megawatt breeder reactor. That design could reach a peak velocity of abut 3 percent of the speed of light or 9,000 kilometers per second after about ten years of constant acceleration. If a flyby was intended there would be no need to slow down at the destination so the mission could only make a series of observations of the three star systems.
    Subsequent studies included a positron annihilation antimatter reactor which could achieve peak velocities of about 15 percent of light speed. With this system mission times on the order of 60 years became feasible.
    Now there is a new concept promoted in part by Stephen Hawking that involves laser powered light sails. In principal this system can achieve velocities approaching 70 percent of light speed in just a few days. So far, none of the studies have identified any fundamental showstoppers but the engineering challenges are enormous. It is conceivable that unmanned exploratory probe missions could be launched toward several of the nearer stars within 10 years. Right now interstellar missions are in the same place as interplanetary missions were in the late 1950's. Now we have sent probes to all of the major planets in the Solar system and have landed on several of them. A powerful influence will be the participation of private companies in the development of the technologies necessary.for truly ambitious and advanced missions. There are a number of companies that are seriously studying asteroid mining which could become a multi trillion dollar enterprise within the next ten to twenty years. I am consulting for one of these. I was involved in the first American artificial satellite, explorer one, and several of the lunar and planetary missions that have flown since. Technology and capability have advanced much more rapidly than any of us could have anticipated in the 60's and 70's. Very exciting stuff.
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    • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 8 months ago
      ProfChuck thanks for the link. Last night after hunting around I was able to see video shot by Neil Armstrong during Apollo 11. 1 1/2 hours of lunar footage ,just fascinating.
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    • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 8 months ago
      Thank you ProfChuck, Your experience and historical observations as a pioneer in This exciting field is appreciated. With the rapid advancement in technology , simulation ,new discoveries the future, has tremendous treasures to uncover.

      Private corps are the key to the long term success of interstellar exploration and exploitation of resources. The biggest risk to our advancement is the creeping or leaping collectivism. The lack of govt support for private property or intellectual property. Sarbanes Oxley, regulations snuffing out the entrepreneur and his motivation.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 8 months ago
    Not to be a wet blanket on the exciting news, but getting there in our lifetimes??? To get there in 65 years requires an average speed of about 42 million miles per hour. Since the speed must be attained slowly over time (to preserve very limited fuel carried on board) and then reduced slowly over time (to be able to stop at the destination), the top speed would have to be much, much higher.
    The fastest terran space craft thusfar had a top speed of 90 thousand mph, so the craft going to Proxima must travel at a velocity more than 500 times faster.
    This will require discovery of completely different (much more advanced) transportation technology, or use of the alien craft at area 51.
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    • Posted by Animal 7 years, 8 months ago
      John Carter got to Mars by "astral projection." All you have to do is figure that out. Get crackin', people!
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      • Posted by fosterj717 7 years, 8 months ago
        Interestingly, we are on the cusp of finding a new and much more effective means of utilizing energy that also opens up a whole new world of physics that may provide the means of traveling many times the speed of light thus making such trips not only possible but almost routine.

        It is now believed that gravity waves travel at about 800 times the speed of light and that the use of gravity is truly free energy that will change the way we live forever. It will be most interesting to find out what the God particle is actually capable of. The folks in Cern probably have an inkling!
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        • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 8 months ago
          This paper may require you to do some study so that you can have an idea about what you believe about the speed of gravity, where aberration would seem to indicate gravity traveling at much more than 800 times faster than light, but it turns out that gravitational equations cancel such speeds when analyzed carefully.

          http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9909087.pdf
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          • Posted by fosterj717 7 years, 8 months ago
            Thank you for the interesting article however I must confess, the equations themselves are beyond my area of expertise but the narrative was quite clear albeit not so much in certain areas (it could definitely be my limited knowledge of the subject matter).

            With that being said, this treatise/paper is dated 1999 with supporting citations being prior to that date. Could it be that work having taken place over the past 17 years might have advanced the body of knowledge beyond that which went into the study? It seems that even from the narrative, there are areas of speculation whereas hard evidence lacking or perhaps assumed in forming the hypothesis. Also, was this paper peer reviewed?

            In closing, your pointing me in the direction of this study is greatly appreciated and will be honestly considered.
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            • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 8 months ago
              As far as I know the issue has not been settled. Does, for example, the gravitational field point to the future position of the Sun 8 minutes in the future rather than where the sun apparently appears? There does not seem to be a perceivable aberration which would indicate that gravity points toward the future positions of the Sun and the Earth. The last I saw was about 10^8c if there is not something about gravity that will cancel the aberration.
              As for the Earth like planet, long term of a generation length have been done with the Voyager spacecrafts. Nice to have a career length project.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 8 months ago
      Kim Stanley Robinson's "Aurora" deals with such a trip in a fairly realistic way. They went at 10% of the speed of light to Tau Ceti about 8 light years away. Took them 150 years with about five generations born on the giant two wheeled starship, the rotating wheels producing artificial gravity. Things did not, of course, turn out as planned.
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    • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 8 months ago
      Project StarShot plans to send a mini-probe propelled by a microwave-boosted sail to the Centauri system. They expect to achieve speeds of 0.2C (20% speed of light, or 133,920,000 mph), and reach the system in about 20 years. Given the additional 4.2 years for a report from the probe, that would give a thumbs up/thumbs down in less than 25 years. I suspect we'll have figured out how to get there faster during those 25 years.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 8 months ago
        "The Starshot spacecraft will consist of a wafer-size chip attached to a super-thin sail. This paired duo will be launched to space aboard a mothership, and then propelled to the stars by laser light beamed from a high-altitude facility here on Earth."
        Not exactly what most people think of when discussing a spacecraft, and it depends on tech that has not yet been invented or proven.
        Thanks for the info, DrZ. Clearly shows that there are some exploration plans afoot.
        http://www.space.com/32546-interstell...
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 8 months ago
      Freedom, That may be, indeed. However, it does seem to be a spur on research and maybe some breakthrough. If there is a target in reach, it makes it easier to convince people to fund it, although with all the graft, we will run out before ever making it...sad to say.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 7 years, 8 months ago
    "A Gulch at last! Anyone up for a road trip?" Are you sure? What if we put in all that effort only to find that the weather is terrible and the resident aliens are all socialists?
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 8 months ago
    If there's and Earth-like planet in the closest known and easiest to observe system, it makes me wonder if they're everywhere. It intensifies the Fermi paradox. In a few generations, people could be eagerly watching the first human set food there four years earlier.

    If FTL travel and the ansible are possible, people will be living sci-fi dreams of an interstellar republic.
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    • Posted by Enyway 7 years, 8 months ago
      You do not have to wonder. If, at warp 9, it takes 70 years to go from one quadrant of our galaxy to another, and knowing there are more galaxies than we can count (not having found them all) it would be ridiculous to think, with all that space, there are only a few planets like ours. There must be billions of planets with sentient life. Billions more that could support humans. Question. Are we worthy? Considering how the countries on this planet treat each other, maybe it's a good thing it takes so long to get from one star to another. From here to there. Or, for that matter, from there to here.
      So, a toast:

      "May cultural differences encourage us to build bridges of understanding to all that makes us unique."

      Seven of Nine; Tertiary Adjunct of Uni Matrix 01
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 8 months ago
        Thanks for sci-fi-heavy response. :)

        " If, at warp 9, it takes 70 years to go from one quadrant of our galaxy to another,"
        This was always hard to understand because if the major powers in Star Trek take up the good part of a quadrant, travelling from one end to the other would take years.

        "Question. Are we worthy?"
        From a philosophical point of view, we're every bit as worthy of basic rights as members of primitive band of hunter/gatherers or members of some unimaginably advanced society.

        This question, "are we worthy" was a theme in the miniseries for the reimagined BSG, and the question seemed to echo through the first two seasons. (I didn't finish the series and may go back to it.)
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        • Posted by Enyway 7 years, 8 months ago
          A thought occurred to me (that doesn't happen often, ask any of my friends), it's not just the years it takes to get from one quadrant to another. If we could leave our galaxy it would take even longer to get to the next galaxy. At least, that's my understanding.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 8 months ago
            " If we could leave our galaxy it would take even longer to get to the next galaxy. "
            Yes. Star Trek usually gets this one right. It takes many decades for their ships to get from one end of the galaxy to the other, 100,000 light-years. The nearest galaxies are in the millions of light-years, which would take thousands of years to reach, so they never even think of going there without some super-fast alien technology beyond their understanding.

            When I started watching the show in the 80s, we didn't know if planets existed outside our solar system. So it seemed a stretch that there would be so many planets just in our spiral arm of the Milky Way. Maybe they were right about that.

            I agree with nickursis' coments below saying that even a trip to the nearest start, 4.3 light-years away, is impractical, which means travelling to other galaxies is pure dreaming.
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            • Posted by Enyway 7 years, 8 months ago
              I like to think the top speed of warp 10 was derived from an old book that was around before Star Trek. "Johnathon Livingston Seagull," was about a seagull that wanted to go faster. He was obsessed with going faster than any other bird ever had or will. A wise old seagull explained the concept of "being there" and showed him it was possible. That would be the only way we could be in another galaxy. If we could, wouldn't we be awful close to the "death-stars" scientists found near the turn of the century. If we can see the result of an exploding star from these great distances, imagine what it would be like to be in the same galaxy when one goes. it must be a spectacular sight. Of course, since it would wipe out the galaxy, it would be the last thing we'd ever see.
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 8 months ago
                "I like to think the top speed of warp 10 was derived from an old book that was around before Star Trek."
                In TOS people consider the warp scale to be [warp factor]^3 to be how many time faster than light you're going. This puts the ship in the 100s of times faster than light, which sounds really fast. I imagine after that series the writers realized that even thoughts speed would require months just to reach nearby stars. They wanted to make the new ships faster, but wanted to avoid warp factors high into the double digits. So they reworked the scale with 10 being the absolute max.

                This is consistent with your point about large supernovas or events in other galaxies. I think people don't realize how fast the galaxy and the Local Group of galaxies are.
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 8 months ago
              Hey CG, remember Voyager got tossed to the Delta quadrant and would only need something like 80 years to get back. Luckily for them, at the end of season 8 or whatever, they managed to rip off the Borg for a free trip, as well as do some genocide on them, all in one episode.
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 8 months ago
                "Voyager got tossed to the Delta quadrant and would only need something like 80 years to get back. "
                Yes. That series disappointed me. The premise sounds wonderful. The re-imagined BSG shows part of what it could have been: a single ship, conflict among crews who circumstance forces to work on the same ship, no allies, a trip home that make take a lifetime. The producers gave Voyager the same feel as TNG, and even referred to it in some docs as season 8, as if it were a continuation of TNG. But the premise was supposed to be completely different.
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 8 months ago
            Uh, yeah. Just imaging the number of light years a distance is (i.e. 4.5 or so to Alpha Centauri) and multiply by whatever factor you think the speed would be (25% light = x4=20 years or so). Without a viable method of rapid travel interstellar flight will either be generation ships, or cold sleep. Neither is feasible at this time.
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            • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 8 months ago
              Hi Nickursis . Some references to the distance. 1 light year is over 5.85 trillion miles . Astronomers also use astronomical units for distance. 1 AU is the distance from the earth to the sun or 93,000,000 miles. So 63240 AU's in 1 light year.
              In a rocket flying at 25,000 mph it will take 155 days to travel 1 AU. Over 26,500 years to travel 1 light year at 25,000 mph. We have some work ahead to get up to speeds that can eat up the vast distances. A thousand mile hike begins with one step. Good evening!
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              • Posted by $ 7 years, 8 months ago
                Hi Dob, I am a pretty heavy Sci-Fi fan, I listen to audio books drviing to/from work (90 mins each way), and I have found that a lot of writers now use a wide variety of measures for speed. Some refer to "c" as in ".01c (speed of light)", some use gravities (as in Honor Harrington and some other series) where the gravities is the force of 1 gravity measured as velocity (so you will see an acceleration of "300 gravities" which of course means you need an "inertial sump" or "Inertial compensator" (which is always some magical device, usually with some science thrown in, but always needing some magic). You also hear "KPS squared" kilometers per second squared. Needless to say, while still using chemical reactions to generate thrust, we will remian on the losing end of the deal. Someday, the inertialess drive will appear, and we can all go find a Gulch of our own....Great thing about Sci Fi, the limit is the imagination, the quality is the science.
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            • Posted by Enyway 7 years, 8 months ago
              It might help some people to see it in different terms. Some people just cannot fathom the distance light actually travels in a year. Say we can travel 56,000 KPH. By our standards of getting around this planet, that is extremely fast. At this speed we could expect to make it to Proxima Centauri in about 80,000 years. Yes, that's 80 thousand. That should give almost anyone an idea of the distance light traveled in 4 light years. Man, do we ever have our work cut out for us.
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 8 months ago
        You sir, are a serious sci fi person. Have you heard of Axanar?
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        • Posted by Enyway 7 years, 8 months ago
          I do not recall. Enlighten me, please.
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 8 months ago
            Axanar ia a Star Trek Fan film that was being made at professional production level, about 20K people ponied up almost 1 million to make it. CBS and Paramount filed a lawsuit right before production started (Dec2015). Go to YouTube and look up "Prelude to Axanar" which was their initial proof of concept, it is gorgeous. It ended up with a Draconian set of "New Rules of Acquisition" for fan films that basically neutered all of them and made it impossible. The "new series" is also apparently stealing all of Axanars primary subject material, which will make for a very interesting case.
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    • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 8 months ago
      Good eve CircuitGuy To me that is also the most telling aspect of the discovery. With 100,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy and 100,000,000,000 galaxies is that the closest star system has a potential Earth like planet.
      Particularly when the many factors such as age of universe ,our planet and the incredibly short time humans have been here. There are likely millions of planets that have a moon and water and an atmosphere.
      Drake would have used this and the hundreds of new discoveries since the Kepler launch to increase the multiple of his formula.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 8 months ago
    Cool if true...they don't know if there is water there or if the atmosphere is breathable or not. Power up the Enterprise and we'll go check it out.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 7 years, 8 months ago
    My favorite viable interstellar craft would be the Project Orion Vehicle as originally designed by General Atomics. The ablative pusher plate design with massive shock absorber cylinders using 2 kiloton bombs could push the craft at high enough velocities that going to Proxima Centauri is doable. Of course the ship would have to be assembled in low earth orbit. The Upper section could have a ring type of design so the entire ship could be spun on it axis to simulate gravity for the crew. This would be more desireable than tumble the vehicle end over end as originally thought of back in the fifties. For further info: Project Orion by George Dyson, Pub:Henry Holt & Co.2002.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 8 months ago
      I've heard about this idea since I was a kid. I don't understand where the force comes from. In an atmosphere, the expanding gasses from an atomic bomb create enormous over-pressure. When I imagine one going off in space, I imagine the bomb getting really hot quickly, giving off a burst of radiation, and then slowly cooling by radiational cooling. In this model, you could be right next to it in space, shielded by a big block of lead, and not even know it went off. There's no sound. The light shoots around the sides of the Pb shield without bouncing off anything.

      So for such a system to work, it seems like you'd have to carry a good deal of material that expands as a gas when heated.
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    • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 8 months ago
      I think such a craft would be prohibited by the Outer Space Treaty.
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      • Posted by Owlsrayne 7 years, 8 months ago
        Not if was built by a corporation. Then a corporation would have to build it at a Lagrange point near Earth. Anyway, there is much harsher radiation in outer space, than the 2 kiloton damped radiation propulsion device. The original testing found that if they used Urea in the devices damped the output of radiation.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 8 months ago
          The states that signed the treaty would likely make that an extremely difficult undertaking (probability of success nearing 0), Owlsrayne, at least at this point in the time line ;^) Sounds like a plot from an Ian Fleming novel.
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 8 months ago
        Seriously, they have considered it for a long time (I guess the 20 year range). The main issue was the number of 2KT nukes needed, and the fact it would be so large as to be near impossible to lift components from earth, requiring space fabrication tech no one has yet to create. I assume the non proliferation treaty you mention?
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  • Posted by chad 7 years, 8 months ago
    If there is a intelligent objectivist life form there wouldn't they consider the Clinton's and Barracula an act of aggression??
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  • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 8 months ago
    As one of you has already said: finding it is one thing. Getting there is another. The original article mentioned Project Starshot--an attempt to send an automatic probe to the Alpha Centauri ABC system at one-fifth lightspeed. Trip time: twenty years. And how will they manage to stop?

    A project like this is so big, we'd sooner fight and win a war of liberation and revolution on Earth than complete this project on our own, with the Grand Looters' Collective interfering at every turn. Ragnar Danneskjöld would need to command a fleet of privateers, similar to Jean Lafitte's fleet in the early nineteenth century, and likely with ten times as many ships as Lafitte had. Three carrier battle groups might do it--and I'm talking about the new Ford class carriers, not the now-obsolete Nimitzes. (The old Big E is already in the boneyard--can't use her.) We'd need Boeing's SeaLaunch ship (if that isn't already in the boneyard, too). And even then, we're better off building a mining colony and factory complex on the far side of the Moon, where we could resurrect the old Nerva program for motive power. Then we jump to Jupiter, long enough to scoop up some hydrogen--wait. You'll need heavy hydrogen. That means landing on the dwarf planet Ceres. I have reason to believe the ices on that and other dwarf planets and large asteroids in the Belt have twice the deuterium, kilo for kilo, as the oceans of Earth.

    If we can accomplish all that, then we have the resources to build a generation ship to accelerate to 42 million MPH (at one g), coast along, then reverse heading, brake, and "inject" into the Alpha Centauri C system. Once there, our children find the planet and land. If we can trust the intelligence we have in that article.

    If we can get off the ground and make it to the moon, the interference problem vanishes. But I think here's one case where you need Hank Rearden in your community before you can even start.

    One thing you'll notice: I haven't said anything about that world already being inhabited. I doubt it would be. That red sun--life would need a yellow sun. Prepare to seed that world from scratch, if the seeds can sprout.
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    • Posted by fosterj717 7 years, 8 months ago
      Only if life is based upon carbon! Life may flourish in a number of non-human environments, even on exoplanets described as "earth-like" or in the "Goldie-locks" zone......
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      • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 8 months ago
        With the right conditions and time , the evolution of life , the natural tenaciousness of a will to live and the adapting of and taking advantage of the environments resources , the possibilities are
        Boundless. Life on this planet survives in conditions that are deadly for us.
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