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Reality, Reason, and Iraq

Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 5 months ago to Politics
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The news calls them “jihadist” and “Sunni extremists.” You have no idea who they are or what they want. Iraq is a nation three large minorities: ethnic Kurds, Shi’a Muslims, and Sunni Muslims. (Baghdad’s Jews and Marionite Catholics no longer count.) Historically, Iraq was never a nation until the British created it from the old Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I. That they did not create Kurdistan at the same time is another sad story.

Fast forward through the puppet King Faisal and we come to the modern era of socialism and military dictatorship. Although nominally a secular socialist, Saddam Hussein was a Sunni who depended on religionist support. Aside from the Kurds, his opponents were Shia Muslims who drew aid from Iran, the center of that faction, as Cantebury is for Episcopalians.

The US invasion destroyed the central government of Iraq. For over a decade, many Washington planners from different organizations have tried to create or nurture some kind of pluralist government in Iraq. It is doomed to failure.

For one thing, Turkey does not want an independent Kurdistan, especially as the Iraqi Kurds have de facto independence now. Moreover, they are largely out of this fight. It is between the Sunni and Shi’i.

As far as the Sunni are concerned, they are fighting for their lives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Trian...
If they take control of Iraq again, the tables will be turned to no one’s benefit. It would be best to let them have their Sunni Triangle as a independent state or autonomous region.

As for the president of Iraq, Nouri Kamal al-Maliki:
“He left Syria for Iran in 1982, where he lived in Tehran until 1990, before returning to Damascus where he remained until U.S. coalition forces invaded Iraq and toppled Saddam's regime in 2003. While living in Syria, he worked as a political officer for Dawa, developing close ties with Hezbollah and particularly with Iran, supporting that country's effort to topple Saddam's regime.” – Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouri_al-Ma...

Iraq is suffering in a civil war – but it has suffered so ever since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and surely since the failure of the British mandate. American involvement on behalf of the central government will only make matters worse. Iraq will become a satellite of Iran.

If an ideal settlement exists, it is the partitioning of the region into three or four states: Kurd, Sunni, Shi’ite, with – again, ideally – Baghdad as an international free trade zone. Whatever happens, the best course is _no_ course: laissez faire.


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  • Posted by Zenphamy 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think the point you miss, Maph, is that I don't want to be in charge of anything, except myself and I expect everyone else to follow that same ethos.
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  • Posted by Fountainhead24 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    THIS President? PULEEZ! Read the replies to your post and learn the truth. THIS President has been mopping up after the Bus/Cheney debacle. The current outcome was predicted 10 years ago. They have been fighting with each other for well over a thousand years.
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  • Posted by straightlinelogic 11 years, 5 months ago
    I salute you for noting the divisions in Iraq and the essential impossibility of uniting these disparate people into one nation. I am saying the same thing in my next straightlinelogic piece, and like you I think that partition is the eventual outcome, but only after a lot more bloodshed. The best policy for the US is to stay out of the Middle East, buy their oil (they can't eat it), and, as Sarah Palin once said, "Let Allah sort it out" in this recrudescence of the centuries old Sunni-Shi'a schism.
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  • Posted by Maphesdus 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am so glad you're not in charge of anything. You'd turn the entire world against us with your barbaric policies.
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  • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So it's Bush's fault We didn't get bin Laden while he was President so he gave up? I am critical of whoever is in the White House making dumb decisions. If Biden thought partitioning was a great idea then why didn't they follow thru? Why spend the time and money we did if the goal was to cut and run and let whoever take over? This President is incompetent. That is not to say the previous one was a master but Obama is in charge now and that means accepting responsibility for what happens.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What does Neil Bush and Scott Hinckley have to do with anything? Been watching too much Fahrenheit 9/11? The Hinckley family is very well-off and prominent in Houston, they had made some sizable campaign contributions to GHW Bush (along with a few million other people). Neil was one of the campaign managers and was scheduled to have dinner with John Hinckley's brother Scott. John had some very disturbing mental issues... doesn't mean Scott did, or Scott was aware of the devious plot to attract the admiration of Jodi Foster (an acknowledged lesbian).

    None of what you are saying is untrue, but people misconstrue the facts... they think the relationship between GHW Bush and the Saudi family comes from their supposed "oil fortune"... at most, they were tiny wildcat players in Midland, TX... not Chevron or Texaco. The relationship is a result of GHW's time as the Director of the CIA, and as Vice President, Ambassador to the UN, Ambassador to China, etc.

    Frankly, I'm more comfortable with those relationships... than I would be with being a "friend" of the Clintons... something that is very, very dangerous.
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  • Posted by Rozar 11 years, 5 months ago
    Wouldn't the best ideal settlement to make the whole place a free trade zone?
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks for the insights, SCO. We agree on the facts. We disagree on what the facts MEAN. The US ambassador to Iraq told their foreign minister that we would consider their invasion of Kuwait a regional matter and not our concern. If she had given him another message, the outcome might have been different.

    Kuwait was not an "independent nation" in any real sense. It was created as a fueling depot by the British. Kuwait was really as much a part of Iraq as anything could be. Look at the map. The Kuwaitis could have mounted a heroic defense and won -- if they cared to fight.... None did. The country was loaded with foreign workers who had no rights. No one could vote. They had no elections. It was a theocratic monarchy and their oil money went for the big royal family. Saddam Hussein had a lot of support among Kuwait's Palestinian guest workers.

    Moreover, we never (to my knowledge) ever settled the casus belli - Iraq claimed that Kuwait was slant drilling into its oil fields. Were they? Who knows?

    The horror stories and atrocity stories about Iraqi soldiers taking babies from incubators and shipping the machines back home were false. We know that now. Much about that war was false.

    With Saddam Hussein successful in Kuwait, the message to Saudi Arabia was clear. As a theocratic monarchy whose guest workers have no rights because, really, no one has any rights there, the Saudi Royal Family were sitting ducks. Saddam Hussein could have taken as much of Saudi Arabia as he wanted. And who cares?

    Well, the Bush Family cared because the House of Saud are their personal friends. So, the Saudis hired the Americans to defend them because they were incapable of defending themselves.

    That brought in Osama bin Laden.
    "... it is a fact that the Saudi royal family gave the bin Laden family--and group--exclusive rights to all construction of a religious nature, whether in Mecca, Medina or--until 1967--the Holy Places in Jerusalem. This enabled the bin Ladens to establish an industrial and financial empire which now extends far beyond religious construction projects.

    The relationship between the bin Ladens and the Saudi royal family is quite exceptional in that it not simply one of business ties: it is also a relationship of trust, of friendship and of shared secrets. This is particularly the case with regard to the group's present-day leaders and the Soudairi clan.

    Thanks to the renovation of Mecca, Sheik Mohammed bin Laden did not become merely Kin Abdul Aziz' official contractor, but his friend and confidant as well. This friendship has been handed down to their children. The bin Laden sons went to the same schools as the numerous offspring of King Abdul Aziz and they all followed the same path." -- http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...

    Families are so troublesome.
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  • Posted by LarryHeart 11 years, 5 months ago
    Best course of action. Let them fight each other. As long as they are occupied hating and killing each other, the rest of the world is safe.
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  • Posted by wiggys 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    we listen to you, and agree. those who should be taking note will not. thank you
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  • Posted by aogilmore 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, and another Palinese thing is to have witch exorcists from Nigeria to speak at your church. Crazy s***
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  • Posted by shivas 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That the 9/11 terrorist were trained in Afghanistan is taken as a given at this point. I don't know what's been proven or not on that, but they had to train somewhere.
    The other issue I see is that we can not take back what we have already done in the Middle East. While we can speculate on what they will do if we pull out, it hasn't been proven that they will let bygones be bygone, either.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago
    Remember that "Charlie Wilson's War" brought the Taliban to the Reagan White House. President Reagan called them "the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers." They were religious theists opposing godless communism. We gave them weapons. As far as they were concerned, we were as bad as the Soviet Union: decadent, materialist, ...
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree with all of that, except if the US establishes or proscribes a religion, we lose one of its key virtues.

    I don't understand how we got to this point. We dealt with the threat of nuclear war, yet we scared by a bunch of loosely-connected losers committing crimes. It's almost like some people need a huge threat like the Soviet Union was. In the absence of it, they try to get fired up over gangs or some other boogie man. If you call the gangs terrorists and suspend disbelief, you can almost imagine them being as bad as a country with thousands of ICBMs. You let the criminals of the world know we'll treat you as a serious world player if you only commit some ghastly murders.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The sound bite I heard (I'm mostly uninformed about this) is that President Obama says the Iraqi gov't wasn't pluralistic enough. He's implying that if the gov't had been, there would not be a large armed insurgency. I obviously don't accept soundbites from politicians as fact, but I wonder if this could be true. Do US leaders think the Iraqi gov't isn't trying hard enough and is marginalizing the Sunni's expecting the US to fight the resulting insurgency?

    It seems to me the key to making it work is creating a pluralistic gov't, one that's strong enough to fight insurgents but that grants regions and cities autonomy. There's the huge issue of managing the oil wealth, but that could be managed without violence if they had a strong pluralistic gov't.


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  • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I disagreed with Bush as well but Obama should have dealt with the situation he was given. Why stay as long as he did and continue with financial and arms support if he just wanted out. This was botched by his administration as well.
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  • Posted by Rozar 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Even in Japan we took their culture into consideration. We left them with an emperor even if it was just for show.
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  • Posted by Flootus5 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    within a couple of weeks of 9/11 Ashcroft had the Patriot Act ready to send to Congress to be voted on (you don't think that thing wasn't in someone's file before 9/11), followed not too long by establishing the Dept of Homeland Security and soon the NDAA,

    Look to the report on terrorism written by Newt Gingrich and Gary Hart and released in early 2001.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The enemy of my enemy...

    Cold war policy, poor policy at that, coming back to bite us ten fold. It better to get our own hands dirty.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 11 years, 5 months ago
    Thank you for the history lesson. And, your "solution" which is no solution but is actually the only solution. These people are nothing but tribes. They hardly even qualify as tribal states. They have been at each others throats since the dawn of history and no nation will ever create a peaceful solution except by the use of force and subjugation. If they could be appealed to on a rational basis, your solution would be ideal if it would last. However I doubt if it would. You can give them cars, TVs and flush toilets, but they continue to live in the 7th century.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Do you have a source for the statement that we are in more danger of being mistakenly killed by our own police than by an armed robber? What I am curious about is IF one is not involved in illegal trafficking in drugs or some such known-hazardous enterprise, is the accidental death rate of (legally innocent) Americans higher from Law Enforcement higher than our deliberate death rate from all forms of assault by criminals. I have been told that this is a middle-class 'perception' and in error...but it would be interesting to know that if known sources of violence were eliminated if it held true across classes.

    Jan,
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