Authors Retract Fracking Study

Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 9 months ago to Science
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 9 months ago
    From its inception, most Gulchers have recognized the value of Fracking. Even before that, I remember that many years ago people lamenting that if we could only get at that shale oil, we'd be oil independent. Now that dream has come true and we can easily become oil independent but for those idiots and connivers in the Beltway.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 9 months ago
    Libtard politicians and "journalists" will still cite such studies as progressive doctrine in speeches and correspondence galore.
    It's what liars do.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
    Most important is that the two articles were withdrawn. I posted here before about Retraction Watch. While enlightening in its format, it is just another example of the peer review that suddenly became highly visible across all sciences.

    The Internet and Web multiplied the capacity for communication. Letters no longer take weeks to cross the Atlantic on a sailing ship. We no longer pay 15 cents a word to read a telegram, or wait while an operator connects two telephones.

    Review has always been a step in the scientific method. That is why scientists publish. But through the decades of discovery, more emphasis was on publishing new materials, not revisiting previous works. That has changed. It appears to have been a paradigm shift in the practice of science.

    The reductio would be a culture of science that contemplates its navel, always reviewing the existing works, and never creating new ones. Historically, some cultures fell into that broadly. China and Europe both knew times when studying old scholars was the essence of scholarship. We still have remnants of this. You can find journals for Aristotleans and Platonists... and the Journal of Ayn Rand Studies... But we have no journals for Ptolemaic Studies or Applied Phlogiston. So, maybe science is safe for now.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
      ". But through the decades of discovery, more emphasis was on publishing new materials, not revisiting previous works. That has changed. It appears to have been a paradigm shift in the practice of science."
      I wonder if this has been a slow change, maybe starting around the time of William Harvey, who starts of On Circulation of the Blood saying it may be shocking to readers that there's something left to discover beyond Galen's work over 1000 years earlier.

      Maybe the printing press started, the telegraph, continuing through low-cost high-throughput data. What hath God wrought?

      "So, maybe science is safe for now."
      I perceive that many people not working around science do not understand science. This article talks about sensational headlines. Science writers make a study interesting by pointing out how it's vaguely similar to sci-fi technology like FTL travel or teleporters. Then a different person writes a sensational headline that often has nothing to do with the real research.

      I don't know if it's because of the sensationalism, but many non-scientists seem to start with the premise that all science is actually politics. It seems like they say we can't actually know anything through science, so we might as well pick comforting answers and find evidence to support them.

      Michael Pollan does this in In Defense of Food. The book makes good points, but at times he seems to go to that argument that because scientific opinion changes over time, it's unreliable. He says at one point scientist told us all nutrition came from macronutrients, completely missing micronutrients. He talks about how research is funded industry, so we study the benefits of food processed before it gets to the consumer more than the benefits of food that's provided raw for the consumer to cook and process. I think he has a good point. But the answer is not to throw our hands up and say we can't know anything.
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      • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 9 months ago
        Well, I would say that some branches of science--those whose practitioners are not looking for practical solutions--are political. Climate science and environmental science have become political. The original authors sought to please the Luddite crowd. That's why those papers saw publication to begin with.
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        • Posted by Flootus5 7 years, 9 months ago
          Excellent observation. Climate science and environmental science are political.

          My livelihood has been directly impacted by deliberately fraudulent "science" used by federal land management agencies in their implementation of land use policies with the sage grouse FEIS. I will elaborate someday.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
          "those whose practitioners are not looking for practical solutions--are political"
          Are you saying since there are such huge financial interests in fracking and such a strong cultural Luddite movement that we cannot study it scientifically? If so, do we find the fudge factor by weighing the interests of this huge industry and all the people in the world who want to see the global economy grow against the tiny minority that actually wants to see the world produce less? Following that, we'd think it's all a conspiracy to hide the environmental costs of fracking. I don't agree with this political fudge-factor method. We have to study reality with our imperfect human abilities.
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          • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 9 months ago
            I am saying environmental science has become a political football. I quote: "I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to the [proxy series]...to hide the decline." And: "We cannot show a warming trend and it is a travesty that we can't." Anyone who stoops to such methods, or uses such language, is no scientist. He is a politician.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
              This is actually good. It's always tempting to do this. "This is a board with the new part, but it's still failing. I'll run it again, and see if it passes." Science by its nature encourages people to catch the mistakes that result from this type of confirmation bias. We don't give up on science we find a mistake. Finding mistakes is how it's supposed to work.
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              • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 9 months ago
                Except when the overwhelming majority of people in a given discipline all swear allegiance to the same political claque wanting a certain answer and willing to fund any amount, or wreck any career, to get that answer.
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                • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
                  So in this claim, the Luddites have a well-organized and well-funded machine, while the energy industry and the rest of humankind that likes a lifestyle that consumes energy do not.
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                  • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 9 months ago
                    Er...I don't know how to ask this, except--er--straight-out: whose side do you take? How does the neo-Luddite argument make any physical sense? And what am I to do with their flagrant manipulation and even falsification of data? Don't you know the political objective of the neo-Luddites? To ration energy and redistribute wealth to some high-profile "victim countries," with a little left over for the neo-Luddites themselves.
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
        The narrative here in the Gulch is that universities are corrupt centers of Kantian philosophy and then from that comes the claim that what we get is pseudo-science in service to collectivist politics. That claim is similar to the post-modernist "we can't know anything" in its outcome, but is differently motivated: "we can't trust anyone."

        What I see here among some is a merger of two themes identified by Richard Hofstadter: the paranoid style in American politics; and the anti-intellectual tradition.

        Some people have read that view into Atlas Shrugged, but that was not Rand's viewpoint.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
          "differently motivated: "we can't trust anyone."""
          I actually agree with them on not trusting anyone. I don't pretend science is separated from the culture of its practitioners. This is why craniometry showed scientific evidence that some races were smarter than others. They wanted it to be true. Today we want it not to be true. So I am skeptical that there is no correlation between intelligence or some other desirable attribute and physical features associated with race.

          When it comes to fracking, it's used to extract oil, which runs the global economy. We don't want it to have a hidden environmental cost. So when I hear some findings that it's not as dangerous as we thought, I am aware that there is every incentive to check and double check findings of costs to fracking and less incentive to double-check favorable findings. But I cannot leap from there to a guess that it's actually x times more costly to the environment than studies show when you factor in a fudge factor for politics. I have to go with the imperfect, human-gathered data we have.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
          "That claim is similar to the post-modernist "we can't know anything" in its outcome, but is differently motivated: "we can't trust anyone.""
          That's a good way to look at it.

          It reminds me talking to creationists. They say I believe in a religions narrative, and you believe in Darwin. I say, I accept evolution, not believe it's metaphysical truth. And it's not about following Darwin or some sacred figure. Darwin thought evolution was gradual and had a Lamarkian component. They say, that just proves how bankrupt science is: We can't even pick one story and stick to it.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 9 months ago
    WOW...someone actually responded differently once the knew they got it wrong...it's a red letter day.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      If you read Retraction Watch you will find other examples where the authors' original thesis was contradicted by the published data, and as a consequence, the publisher retracted the original work. It happens rarely. Usually investigators know where they want the data to take them, but if it goes somewhere else, they understand that, too. Once in a while, the data need to be interpreted for the primary investigator. It has happened before. It is not a failing. It is how science can work. Again, consider Einstein's greatest blunder.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 7 years, 9 months ago
    The science establishment (and not just in the US) has been rotten to the core for decades, mostly because the government agencies who write the grant checks have political agendas.

    But some people in that establishment do want to clean it up, and it's nice to see that starting to happen. It's only a start, though.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      If you have not read Thomas Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions you owe it to yourself. Not in Kuhn, as a I recall, the fact is that Ohm's Law was ridiculed. It seems pretty basic to us. They found it absurd in its statement and impossible to validate empirically.

      Don't blame the government. They are culpable. But not for everything. People can be stupid on their own.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 7 years, 9 months ago
    Yes, retraction. The intellectual equivalent of chapter 11.
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    • Posted by starguy 7 years, 9 months ago
      Chapter 11, as in "moral bankruptcy", perhaps?
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      • Posted by rbroberg 7 years, 9 months ago
        Right on the money!
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
          So, Einstein committed a moral failure when found and reported a flaw in his previous work?
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          • Posted by rbroberg 7 years, 9 months ago
            Mike, let's get literal. As Peikoff says, "metaphors cannot give philosophic answers". Chapter 11 is bankruptcy in a financial sense.

            Repeated retractions of a theory make said theory less and less likely to be accurate. Not all theories are correct because man is neither omniscient nor infallible. That said, if I loan a scientist money for research, I expect a return. Did Einstein deliver? Yes, he did.

            Does fracking cause effects on the environment? Of course it does! That is the point of fracking! The difference between this paper and Einstein's work is that the truth of Einstein's work was not altered in order to meet a political dictum. Yet when scientific work is not only altered for political or bureaucratic work, as is possible per the article you share, but also that the key point of the work is in reference to "limits" defined by an organization that provides its funding through fines (the EPA), then it should become more obvious to you that retraction of this work should be scrutinized.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
              "The difference between this paper and Einstein's work is that the truth of Einstein's work was not altered in order to meet a political dictum. "
              Are you staying regarding questions that involve politics, i.e. questions whose answers affect a major industry key to the global economy, we cannot know anything? If for some reason a while industry were immediately affected by the existence of gravitational waves, would Einstein first asserting they couldn't exist and then finding he made an error be all about politics?
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              • Posted by rbroberg 7 years, 9 months ago
                What about your gravitation wave example has anything to do with politics?
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                • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
                  "Gravitational waves are not political unless used for political purposes."
                  I read all your examples, and I still don't get it. Perhaps there's not enough space in this forum. It sounds like you're saying once scientific inquiry has an immediate outcome that would affect a large industry, it becomes political and then we cannot know anything about it.

                  Is that what you're saying in the example of carcinogens? So many people would hate to see a promising energy source causing cancer, and a few extremists actually want less energy. You're saying because of that we cannot know whether these chemicals cause cancer and how many more cancers occur due to their presence.

                  Or are you actually saying it's political if it's gov't funded/subsidized?
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                • Posted by rbroberg 7 years, 9 months ago
                  Gravitational waves are not political unless used for political purposes. The particular temperature and pressure of an oil well is not political. The identification of a chemical which enables optimal extraction rates of oil is not political. Whether fracking does or doesn't exceed an EPA limit is political. Corporations and government may well collude to achieve certain ends.

                  Here's my example. If scientist A did research that enabled the building of an atomic bomb and scientist B did further research in order to enable the building of an atomic bomb for the express purpose of providing that technology to a state, then scientist B is doing political work too. See also, Albert Einstein. See also, J. Robert Oppenheimer.

                  I assume the scientists performing the research are smart enough to know if their own work is political in nature or is not. In the case of the scientists retracting the environmental study, it is not necessarily true that the retraction was political, but clearly it has political consequences. Am I wrong to be skeptical?

                  Einstein's theory was a theory. To be tested and proven. Carcinogenicity of a fracking chemical is a theory too. But I'm not volunteering to have the test performed on me! Are you? In the case of Einstein's theory, "there are never enough samples", in the case of carcinogenicity, there are never too few.

                  Comparing Einstein's theory of relativity to the theory of human toxicology is as simplistic as concluding from E=mc2 that "it's all relative".
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 9 months ago
    Does anyone remember Battle Star Galactica the second version that was done in color? What was their favorite cussword? F...r...a....c... LMAO I pulled out my DVD's and sure enough. Now i recognize the value of fracking and I'm not opposed. Besides tree huggers are strangers to facts.
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  • Posted by Eyecu2 7 years, 9 months ago
    This comes as no surprise. I am sure that the media will give this the coverage that it deserves as they so viciously attacked Franking in the past. (SARCASM)

    I will save this link to use for the next time I get into it with some of my Liberal acquaintances.

    As someone else suggested, it is all about the money, and control of the people. If American citizens are finicially stable they Government has no way to use fear to control us. Hell this entire BLM and Dallas thing is the same thing with a different face on it.
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