Analysis: Clinton's new tuition plan has unexpected ramifications

Posted by $ nickursis 7 years, 9 months ago to Government
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More ways to spend YOUR money, and then come back for more..and more...and increase the whole entitlement base and expectations of a nanny state to take care of everything. Unless you go to MIT or Harvard, and don't use your money for the great summer party.. you should be able to manage it. More giveaways..
SOURCE URL: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2016/07/06/anlaysis-clintons-new-tuition-plan-has-unexpected-ramifications/86768066/


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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
    It's a shameless attempt to get Sander's supporters. The "problem" of paying for education would solve itself if the gov't got out of the way.

    The "problem" is it's hard for the average middle-class person to stop working for four years and focus on undergrad. I did it, and in retrospect except for the intense last year of it, it was a colossal waste of my parents' money. A few years later I did my master's part time, paid for by a company and by teaching analog electronics. That was much more beneficial because I was getting knowledge for coursework and related paid work at the same time, and I was not blowing through money by living a reasonable lifestyle while not working.

    If gov't must "do something" I say improve the public high schools, which are already gov't-run, so that they provide marketable skills.

    To me paying for people's schooling is just one more good cause the gov't should not be taking up.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 9 months ago
      Well, my education didn't cost my parents anything. Don't know what your degree is in, but I don't see how most people could contribute as an engineer without a decent undergraduate education. Maybe I could've skipped some humanities, but calculus, trig, fluids, thermo, statics, machine design, circuits, no way. You might get away with being a mechanic-type hack or a skilled electrical-tinkerer, but not a design engineer.
      That said, I do know highly skilled techs, and engineers that went through the motions learning nothing, but this is the exception not the rule.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
        "I do know highly skilled techs, and engineers that went through the motions learning nothing, but this is the exception not the rule."
        Yes. This is my experience exactly! The exceptions are striking, almost making me wonder if people are lying about their credentials or secretly got a degree but maintain an image of a scruffy autodidact.

        I was not saying higher education is unnecessary. The thing that chaps my ass is when people spend huge amounts of money on it just because it's the next step without really thinking it through, and then present that as a society problem. (but I did what I was told?) I did this to some extent in undergrad. I got employers to pay for my masters, and that benefited me by saving money but also by doing real-world work at the same time and by making me be more deliberate about it. Being deliberate and not just doing what you're told is key.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 7 years, 9 months ago
        And I can attest that you got a fine education. As for the humanities, most of our alumni's employers tell us that our students' ability to write technical documents is distinctly superior to those from competitive institutions. I look forward to your return as an outstanding alum!
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        • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 9 months ago
          Indeed. We have a new President too eh? I was there for the first three, but never met Cantanese (sp?). How is the new guy?
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 7 years, 9 months ago
            President Catanese did a fine job, especially his last few years. After getting the position in 2003, he had the guts to hire the new FIT president, Dwayne McCay, as provost. New president McCay had been the second choice for president when Catanese was hired. When I was faculty senate president in 2007-2008, I got to know both of them quite well, especially while golfing. Both are quite honorable men. The new president probably won't be as good as fundraising as the last one, but knows how to manage both budgets and people quite well. Both the new president and his wife have impressive backgrounds in aerospace engineering and materials science. They have done quite well for the university for almost 12 years, and will continue to do so. I think that the undergrad program is about as good as it can get. The new president is going to focus more on research, to better promote our graduate programs and external prestige. That is probably where we needed to focus our attention over the next 15 years, so he will be good for the university.
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            • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 9 months ago
              Ok. I hope they don't forget the undergrads. No neglected. Research is great, but real, solid undergraduate education is key. I know so many MIT and Ivy League graduates that are technical clowns, with no understanding of first principles. Soooo many. FIT technical boneheads? A lot less as a percentage.
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    • Posted by ChuckyBob 7 years, 9 months ago
      The way government betters public schools is by throwing money down rat holes. The thing that would be most beneficial to the public schools is to support the concept of the family; encourage fathers to be present in the family and perform more than just DNA donor functions. My father was a school teacher. When he started teaching in the early 1960s most kids went home to find their mother there. She would ask what homework there was, help the kids do the homework and check it before it was considered done. The kids went to school after having a good breakfast. They were well groomed, confident and respectful. By the time he retired many of his students went home to an empty house. The father was not present. Mom was either working two menial jobs to make ends meet, or spending time in the evening looking for the next step dad, or DNA donor, as the case may be. The early 60s kids generally performed well, even with the lack of all the whizbang technological learning aids; their mom was a more effective learning aid than a computer on every desk.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      I agree, I can see credits for outstanding students to encourage excellence. I do not see anything but colleges having to devise some manner of carrying the costs and letting students pay them back. Make it a business proposition and they will figure it out. It has gotten so blatent a degree is considered required for employment at McDonalds. You can get as good an engineer or technician from OJT and in house training, as you can from any degree program. IMHO, of course.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
        "You can get as good an engineer or technician from OJT and in house training,"
        I think OJT is way under-rated. I got more out of my master's than undergrad mainly because I had worked for a few years before the masters. If I had never heard of our current college system and someone explained it, I'd think it's crazy: "So for four years of your adult life you go live a modest middle-class life but do hardly any paid work and focus just on education. Your parents pay for it and/or you borrow against future earnings. Of course future earnings aren't collateral, so the loan has to be subsidized and under special laws that make it not bankruptable." It's been going on long enough, though, that it sounds normal.

        Unless gov't props it up, I think the current system will change in the next few years. My kids are 12 years away from this. We're fortunate to be able to blow money on this, but I want to be careful that there for first adult experience not be on how to blow money. I'd rather them buy a house or execute a well-thought-out business plan with the money than just mindless go to college b/c it's the next step in life.

        It's like the OWS people said, "I just did what I was told." They said that still not having figured out doing what other people tell you without question is a very bad idea. Things get done when you move fast, break things, and do things the world isn't quite ready for, stuff people might tell you not to do.

        Sorry for the long rant. I just think we have such a bad system. I believe in formal education, and I believe in gov't subsidizing it in a reasonable way for the poor, but NOT in this model where you don't analyze the cost/benefits under the mantra "but it's education," as if that phrase means turn off your business judgment.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
          I agree Circuit,the idea of education is "learning". The "Education Establishment" has defined degrees as something special, so those who get it, think they are superior to those who do not. It started after WW2 when the GI bill allowed a huge influx of "educated" people into all the various industries, that they then transferred that concept into reality and it became fact. "If I needed it, then you must" is the new paradigm. The whole idea of "learning" got distorted and became a cottage industry. My employer (Intel) requires a degree of all their engineers and engineering techs, I did 20 years in the Navy as a Submarine Sonar Technician, and was given "credit" for a 2 year degree by them. So, I got on the bandwagon, let Intel pay for a 4 year degree (Internet Technology UOP, graduated Magna Cum Laude with little effort), got GI Bill for 48 months and rode the wave. It made little difference in my job, other than the HTML classes were useful. The rest was pretty much BS. I would never go 30K in debt to have such a degree, but I see most colleges as 4 year party houses, just based on the various interviews where students are asked basic HS questions and have no clue. You are right that if it were a cost/benefit thing, it would fail miserably.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 9 months ago
    Better solution:
    Stop inflating the currency by repealing the federal Reserve Act, and return the means to pay for education to people by repealing the 16th amendment and closing the IRS. No government funding for college education loans will lower the tuition cost dramatically and stop enslaving the young to banksters. Of course that would also increase competition in the slightly free market, and that is the opposite of the goals of the corruptocracy.
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    • Posted by term2 7 years, 9 months ago
      you would make a better president than any of them...
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      • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 9 months ago
        Thanks, I think ;^)
        Problem is that power corrupts, and the power that is wielded by the president today (extra-constritutional, power) is far too much to entrust to anyone.
        I read an interesting article today that comments on this specific problem:
        http://www.libertyunbound.com/node/1575
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        • Posted by term2 7 years, 9 months ago
          Interesting article. Human nature hasnt changed. I read an analysis of various powerful cultures over time, and the conclusion was that 250 years was the average time a culture lasted before it declined. The reason was that people forgot what made the culture great, and started to use the government to give them goodies they didnt earn.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 9 months ago
    The entire motivation for this is that a majority of the degrees available do not increase your earning potential significantly enough to be a real ROI on the college investment.
    People are going to school, because to be in that crowd, they need a college degree, otherwise, they might really have to work for a living. The fact is, everyone has to work for a living, and the work some can do it more marketable than the work others can do. So sorry, why don't you go complain about professional athletes salaries progressive puke.

    To make it easier for the majority, lazy, unmeasured(able?) fine and liberal arts majors, the progressives want to pay for college, and produce even more pretend-educated, non-contributing, over-earning people in our welfare state, that will then complain about income-inequality without looking at those in the rest of the world.

    This is precisely what Margret Thatcher meant when she said, the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money.

    If The Donald had a hint of a strategy, he would take the other side of this argument, and say, "Indeed, college is too expensive, and we have inadequate students in the curricula that contributes and earns. The problem is the cost of education, not the availability of money for it. We do not need to pour gasoline on this fire. I propose:
    1. revising the college accreditation standards to simplify the requirements and improve competition. Why can't someone learn nursing in a 200 person school?
    2. Linking federal funding to metrics on graduate earnings and draw from the job market. If STEM pays, STEM gets funded.
    3. Provide funding to trade schools equivalently. We need all kinds of worker, and the country values diversity. Not everyone will be happy as a doctor, lawyer or engineer, but everyone needs a home, transportation and electricity.
    Yes, school is affordable. How can it possible cost $40,000 for 510 hrs of teaching a year? With just 10 students per class, this is $780/hr. Absolutely ridiculous cost. Just ridiculous. Screaming waste, fraud and inefficiency. Let me show you how some real business competition drives efficiency!"
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      Some good pointsand somethings that need to get into an overall discussion of the purpose and meaning of education. I think it has been allowed to just roll along on the gravy train, and everyone just bought into it, because "they went through it, so you should". The fact that dynamics cause changes, and what worked 10 years ago maybe unworkable today. Really...
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 9 months ago
        The "They went through it so you should" is definitely a present fallacy, but I don't think it is the problem with the cost or quality of education.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
          Well,it does increase the demand percieved by colleges and the false idea that college is the only answer to learning. The cost and quality issue is seperate in that they (colleges) seem to think that because so many jobs "must" have a degree, they have a lock on it. That is why you can go to one, and move to another, only to find they won't honor the credits. They feel they have such a lock they can dictate all the "requirements" even when some are pure garbage.
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          • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 9 months ago
            Agree with that. Demand is increases by the lack of respect for hard working blue collar people and jobs too.

            Still think there is a lot more inefficiency in higher education than real companies.

            I'd like to start an engineering school, just for undergraduates to focus on engineering fundamentals, good communication skills, ethics and discipline. I don't see how 15 professors, an assistant or two and two people in finance can't teach 200-300 undergraduates engineering. At $20K/year, this is $4-6M/year, plenty for salaries and rent. Anyone can come up with $20K/yr.
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
              Even then, you have an 80K degree. Why would it need to be so expensive? That is one of the problems we have. Would you carry the costs and allow a 20 year repayment?
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              • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 9 months ago
                Nope, I'd be in the business of education. Someone else is doing finance.

                $80K degree is a problem? Cars cost that much. I don't think so. ROI is the simple measure. You can't ask someone to teach what they know for less than they can make if they practice. I don't see how we can expect someone to be a contributing engineer with less than such a commitment.
                What do you think is required to teach the "shoulders of giants"?
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 7 years, 9 months ago
    What good is a free college degree, when you still have mostly what you should have been taught in high school, with a whole lot of DIVERSITY thrown in
    The government has already dropped us to 25rh in the world in test scores, they need to get out of schooling. Hillary is also for the UN tax. She won't be happy until until the middle class has nothing left, and needs to join those depending on government for help. She does not value actually educating the next generation, they are to be dumbed down, equalized to undeveloped nation status, or exterminated with vaccines to reduce population.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 9 months ago
    Yes, it's a Sanders rip-off. $350 billion? Hah! I'd be willing to bet that it will achieve Bernie's $700 billion before the program gets too much older.
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  • Posted by term2 7 years, 9 months ago
    Hildebeast is a political windsock. She just offers our money to get HER votes. She is a terrible administrator and should be fired from government service, and NEVER allowed to be president.
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  • Posted by jabuttrick 7 years, 9 months ago
    H.L. Mencken once called American elections "advance auctions of stolen goods." He meant that our politicians attempt to outbid each other by promising goodies to the electorate to be funded by future theft from taxpayers. Hillary's plan is a great example of this tactic. How stupid and venal must people be to fall for this? That's a rhetorical question.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 7 years, 9 months ago
    The federal government has ruined higher education several different ways. First they meddle in it with no constitutional authority. Then they force adoption of race and gender quotas and destroy most sports via Title IX. Then they drive the cost through the roof by enacting student loan and grant programs. Then they demand outrageous speech policies that ban debate on most controversial topics. And now they demand an outrageously low standard of proof to railroad guys out on "sexual misconduct" charges.

    I wouldn't go to college today anywhere in the US. And I'd think twice about hiring anybody who did.
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  • Posted by Hot_Black_Desiato 7 years, 9 months ago
    Her plan is a direct violation of the 10th Amendment and state sovereignty. How dare the Federal Goverment promise that STATE colleges would be free? Talk about blatant overreach, further burdening state budgets with no thought to the negative impact on state taxation.
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