Obama revises Oath of Citizenship

Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 10 months ago to News
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If you aren't willing to defend what you've fought to obtain, did you really earn it?


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  • Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I can't guarantee you I have "the true picture of reality". But I know that I routinely expose myself to the "full force and might" of arguments about beliefs counter to my own. The only way to truly understand your own beliefs are to have them challenged and critically analyzed. You seem unwilling to do that, and that's fine, it's your life, obviously.

    "As I said before, it is a matter of opportunity costs. What does investigation into anarchy get me? As far as I can tell: very little. What is the end game? To simply be mad about the corruption of the system of government we have? What's the point in that? Madness as an intellectual driver is ... madness. I'm looking for something more positive than outrage."

    So what I'm hearing your argument to be is "Man, if I found out I was wrong, I'd just spend my life being as pissed off and annoyed as dballing is." In other words, literally, "Ignorance is bliss."

    And - again - I get it. I'll freely admit that my frustration over "how things are" compared to (IMHO)"how they should be" is no small source of anxiety, and I sometimes wish I had what I would consider to be a "more loose moral compass" and could simply accept the status quo. But I don't and I can't. But if that's your argument I genuinely can't fault you for that aspect of it.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "I'm not trying to convince you to do anything."

    Sure you are. Just like I'm trying to persuade you to change your mind. There's no shame in admitting that in the sharing of ideas is the underlying premise that we are trying to persuade others to think like-mindedly. The very basis of free speech is advocacy, which is why it is so important as a fundamental right. I wish more people would see it as it is rather than attempting to make excuses so they can justify limiting its expression.

    "I'm disappointed when folks (any folks, not just you) have the opportunity to approach their deeply held beliefs and hold them up to a mirror to see if they're legitimate, and they refuse to do so."

    Sure. And I agree. But your disappointment can not be turned into a weapon of shaming for one who knows the tactic. You're disappointed. That's your emotion to deal with. I can't address your disappointment.

    "You say you want to "get a true picture of reality", but you demonstrate the opposite..."

    And can you guarantee me that you have the true picture of reality? I don't think you can.

    "...by being completely unwilling to explore the possibility..."

    As I said before, it is a matter of opportunity costs. What does investigation into anarchy get me? As far as I can tell: very little. What is the end game? To simply be mad about the corruption of the system of government we have? What's the point in that? Madness as an intellectual driver is ... madness. I'm looking for something more positive than outrage.

    "You're free to live your life..."

    Yes, I am. But you have a very different concept of freedom than I do. Your version of freedom is a world without rules or organization. My version differs - substantially.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Once upon a time in the old Panama Canal Zone I was sent down to clear a traffic block problem. An entire Infantry Battalion had been given permission to make an extra long morning run on hte public highway and told two abreast when needed and not to block the road during morning heavy traffic. Shift change at the locks.

    They ran four abreast and ignored everything else.

    They did not respond to lights and sirens. Not the Battalion Commander, Noneof the Company Commanders, None of the Platoon Leaders. All Commissioned Officers. Nor did the Sergeant Major nor the First Sergeants. All Officers Non-Commissioned.

    They all had local dricvers licenses which meant they knew the rules of the road when emergency equipment sounded.

    The excuse was they had permission from the Traffic Sergeant.

    Even though i explained, once that has been rescinded for not following directions.

    So do we arrest a whole battalion? Why not? By this time it was not a traffic violation it has escalated into a felony charge.

    Was the use of tear gas warranted?

    I had lots of choices but I had them stopped at the gate going back onto the Fort and took care of it there.

    A few hours later that Battalion Commander had words in front of his Commanding General concerning the civil and military relationship especially in the old Canal Zone where it was clearly spelled out.

    The damage was done, shift change which involved tightly controlled transit times needing full crews and line handlers was impacted the milk was spilt and the complaint had gone up the other side to the Canal Zone Governor's office. This individual was a two star General himself.

    I had no problem attempting to stop that run and clear that roadway. I did not escalate the situation nor try to arrest everyone . I did make sure the Senior Officer In Charge got to visit our police headquarters for a chat. and we had a helicopter pad close by.

    Point is when you are under UCMJ you are also under some sort of Status of Forces Agreement or Rules of Engagtement or Rules of Conduct in each and every area defining the civil and military relationship. If you weren't informed of that it was the fault of your chain of command and the Senior Officer Responsibile.

    I filed his name with the felony charge

    This is a Lieutenant Colonel who suddenly for whatever reason found he probablywasn't going to make Colonel.

    At that point I had been in the military for over twelve years prior as a Senior Non-Commissioned officer and later returned and finished up a retirement.

    What those people forgot was in the USA Civilians are always over military even when under UCMJ. In the military we have a double load of reponsibility a privilege not expected of civilians. We also expect them to remember that and sometimes it happens.

    My question to the Sergeant Major was what was wrong with that unit that he and all his First Sergeants let their officers, commissioned get into that kind of trouble.

    That's the way it should work and I had been privileged to work both sides of the fence. That time.

    What happened in the Canal Zone Governors office or the Brigade Commanders office remained in those offices. But they never ran on the public roads again.

    Justice was Im sure served in other ways. An existing problem was repaired, and the ships kept to their scheduled transit times. Our whole reason for being there. The only cost was in the locks operation end and perhaps overtime for the workers who didn't get relieved on time.

    Sometimes small things are not so small and can easily lead to much larger events.

    One of them is disregarding what seem to be minor security obligations.

    The question now is what are the Supreme Governor(s) of the nation going to say when they step in their office. the one way at the top of the pinnacle of the chains of command - the voting booth.

    The infraction under question is far more important than a traffic ticket or hurt feelings. The buck stops with citizens who decide what kind of people they want in charge and the example they set or don't set.

    The only Officer Friendly is you and your neighbors looking at yourselves in the mirror and and making an ethical choice., What kind of leader do I want in charge of my life. What do I do when there are two very bad choices and neither one is acceptable.

    This next one doesn't carry tear gas in the trunk . Something a bit more potent.
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  • Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm not trying to convince you to do anything.

    I'm disappointed when folks (any folks, not just you) have the opportunity to approach their deeply held beliefs and hold them up to a mirror to see if they're legitimate, and they refuse to do so. That's not just you and your love of The State, but religious beliefs, whatever.

    You say you want to "get a true picture of reality", but you demonstrate the opposite, by being completely unwilling to explore the possibility that reality doesn't match the vision of it you've crafted in your head.

    You're free to live your life, warm and comfortable, snuggled up in the arms of your slave-masters, safe in the knowledge that being free of him is not a valid way to live.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Every choice in life is a value comparison. Every decision results in opportunity cost. What I needed to know was whether or not the cost of the other things I have going on in my life was worth the 3-4 hours it would take to read this book. It doesn't currently fit those parameters. You can call me closed-minded if you wish, but really that's just a last desperate attempt to shame me into agreeing with you. And I'm not in this to agree with you. Or anyone else. I'm in it to get a true picture of reality. I may explore the notion of anarchy at some point in the future, but at its very base, I disagree with the premise that no government is valid. It's as simple as that.
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  • Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So you're not even willing to explore a fact-based analysis of the opposing viewpoint?

    Closed-minded much?
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's all I needed to hear. I won't be putting the book on my list any time soon. I simply can not agree with you that anarchy is a viable system of society nor that all governments are inherently invalid. Good day.
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  • -1
    Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not at all. The Constitution presupposes the authority of a state over its subjects.

    This book effectively acts as a logical proof against the validity of the Constitution (or any other system of governance).
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Why should I invest my time in looking at something like this when I have the Constitution? This seems to cover the same ground...
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  • Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago
    The first 2/3 of the book are a critical analysis that asks the question, for the various "powers" of the state, "Why does the state get to do this thing that its citizens cannot?" Unlike most other PoliSci texts, this book does not start with the presumption of validity of authority but insists that the state "show its work" as it were as to why it should be allowed to do the things it does.

    The last 1/3 of the book then goes into hypothetical, basically taking the position of "ok, if we limit the state to what the beginning allows for (spoiler: nothing) how on earth would that work?" and then steps through most of the arguments you hear for "things only the state can effectively do" and addresses them one at a time.

    I'm a PoliSci nerd (about 6 credits shy of my degree) so I've been forced to read many many texts over the years, and this is quite possibly the best one I've read thus far.
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  • Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It would make sense, perhaps, that such an organization establishes what "protections" and "services" it will afford to the uninvested minor children of fully-vested members.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I can't get enough off the synopsis to even understand the premise of the book. Care to go into enough detail to give me a reason to put this on my to-do list?
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    • dballing replied 7 years, 10 months ago
  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So children are not afforded police protection in your state? Or public services of any kind? Those are benefits of association...
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  • -1
    Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No. Not until/unless they decide to "join" the pact do they have the privileges accorded to members of that society (because ultimately "voting" isn't a right... you have no natural right to help decide the outcome of something, that's a privilege accorded to members of a collective-organization).
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Okay. Well, I understand your viewpoint, but the only way I see that working is in a society of one. If that's what you desire, I'll leave you to it.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I should have stated that more clearly. My apologies.

    Rights, however, always come with the responsibility of proper use. In children, the parents assume responsibility until their children become of age to act for themselves, but in return, the rights of the children can not be fully expressed. Children are not allowed to vote, for instance, even though that is their right. Why? Because they take no responsibility. Once one claims the right, one must also shoulder the responsibility. They are inseparable. When children grow up and take responsibility for themselves, they may also be subject to inherited membership in associations.

    My question is this: do you automatically accord children in your fictitious nation the same rights and responsibilities as their parents under your proposed government and in full expression or do you suspend their membership privileges and obligations until they may apply for membership?
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  • Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Absolutely.

    I see things like libertarianism as "nice stopping points" on the way to anarchism. People have to become adjusted to responsibility, self-reliance, and a lack of control over others' behaviors.

    Baby steps. But always keeping the end-goal in sight as it were.
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  • Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago
    They have rights inherently by being people.

    Governments don't give rights.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You do realize that anarchy is an extreme state (pun intended) and that "statism" is a range, right? Analog - not digital scales here...
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So what happens when children are born into your proposed government? Are they not afforded rights until they are legally able to choose for themselves whether or not to participate in your government?
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    • dballing replied 7 years, 10 months ago
  • Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Absolutely.

    EDIT: To be clear: I am not advocating violent overthrow or anything like that.

    I simply advocate that anarchy is more legitimate, morally, than statism, and I would do my best to dissolve the state (through the appropriate legal channels, such as a ConCon) and advocate for such.
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  • Posted by $ dballing 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I do. Well, that's not entirely true.

    I think that if you and I and some friends decide to form a governing body that binds "us"? Sure, nothing immoral about that.

    As soon as we try to demand that others obey that body? Nope.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You've gone way beyond that. You're advocating for anarchy and the dissolution of the state entirely.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "no such thing as a legitimate "state""

    Those are very extreme words. You are basically saying that you find any form of government immoral. Good luck with that whole anarchy thing.
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