Pennsylvania is now safe. Our liscense to sell plant material is now current.

Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 11 months ago to The Gulch: General
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My family has a small home and garden center in Pennsylvania just outside of Pittsburgh. I just had a visit from the PA Department of Agriculture. Apparently I had allowed our Plant Material Sales permit to expire. After walking thru the sales area for ten minutes and collecting a check for $ 40.00 I am once again in compliance. I am trying to figure out why we have this. One more fee with no obvious benefit.


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  • Posted by Herb7734 11 years, 11 months ago
    Just thought I'd pass this somewhat relevant tid-bit along:
    Some years ago, when the video game machines were a craze, I put a couple of them in my camera store, more for the fun for me and my employees than a money-making venture. After a month or so, we'd take all the quarters and send out for a pizza. One day a city inspector showed up. He was there he said to make sure the machines were in compliance. Compliance with what? Well, right off the bat he showed me. I used a multi-plug extension cord to plug the machines into the outlet and as a result they were too far away from the outlet. Can't be more than six feet, the man said. OK, we moved the machines closer to the outlet. The next day, another city guy came out to make sure that the machines only gave out free replays and not money because that would be gambling. Later that day, the guy who inspects for water installations and plumbing came out. Why in the world, I queried. These are electrical, they don't use water. His reply was a classic. "I saw the other inspectors come out so I figured I should drop by also." Thank heavens that these men had nothing better to do than to make sure we were safe. That was in 1987. I still haven't figured out what I was being protected from.
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    • Posted by johnpe1 11 years, 11 months ago
      oh, Herb, you were being protected from the city
      being vulnerable to a lawsuit! further, you were
      being protected from failing to contribute
      adequately to the standards-enforcement-and-
      compliance crowd ... you know, the folks who
      make work for one another (contractors + bureaucrats)
      like legislators + lawyers [but I repeat myself
      with the latter]....
      from personal experience, the nuclear arsenal
      would be Less Effective if we had to comply with
      standards and building codes, for example! -- j
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  • Posted by jconne 11 years, 11 months ago
    You wrote a check to the agency I hope so it was not just personal blackmail, but rather, legal collective blackmail. Isn't fascism fun?

    I work as a consultant in a currently unregulated discipline. I assert my expertise, my clients agree or disagree and act accordingly. Some love me and some hold an opposite opinion - I ask them to think for themselves and give them thinking tools & coaching to habituated the parts they like. In the last year I had one 11 mo engagement and another that ended after one day :-).

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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 11 months ago
    How did the PADA employee carry him/herself? Were there any threats mentioned if you didn't pay their permit fee? Did you ask him/her what the benefit was, and how this is making anything safer? It's just another way to get you to comply, and to have another gov official feel powerful over the business owners. I don't know about you but I feel safer already...whew... and I'm in AZ.
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    • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
      She was very polite. She said that she was on her way to another store when she saw we had plant material. According to her computer we were closed because we had not paid the 40 dollar fee this year. My problem is what does she do? She looked at our plants and said "I saw some thrips but not enough to worry about". If my plants were infested with bugs I would spray them. I don't need a state employee to tell me that. I should apologize to anyone who was afraid to come to western PA because of me. One question we did ask is if everyone who sells at our local farmers market has permits. She said they did the best they could. Farmers markets are held on Saturday and Sunday. State employees don't work those days. One more fee I pay and others don't.
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      • Posted by shivas 11 years, 11 months ago
        Once upon a time, these licensing fees acted as a barrier to entry so that any Tom, Dick or Harry with a green thumb didn't start selling plant material. Probably requested through the state legislature by a plant material seller who could feel the threat of competition, but had the political pull to put the kybosh to it. $40 isn't much of a barrier any more, but back when they were instituted, it was enough to keep the haves having.

        Just another way the political process gets used against freedom of the individual. Ayn Rand called it the Aristocracy of Pull.
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        • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
          Things like this are always sold as having good intentions but now it just creates jobs for moochers.
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          • Posted by johnpe1 11 years, 11 months ago
            please excuse ... looters, sir! this is government!
            they carry the power of the jailhouse! -- j
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            • Posted by $ nickursis 11 years, 11 months ago
              One must wonder how we ever managed to gain our freedom in 1776, and then grow to continental size, with no inspectors, fees or taxes except import duties. Today we tax the hell out of ourselves, have a huge government, 20 million or so lines of regulations, and someone can still raise 200 alpacas on 3 acres, starve them to death, discharge ecoli into the water and onto myself, and then everyone is surprised when the county finally takes action. They could figure out you had not paid an obscure permit fee, but they can't fix a flaming disaster in their faces. Witness the adventure I posted elsewhere about the family in Colorado or Wyoming the EPA is threatening with huge fines for making a pond for their animals and themselves. No government is good government. Unemployed politicians and lawyers are a boon and blessing....
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              • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
                That's a great point. Government almost always reacts to what happened. The reason we are supposed to accept these agencies is so they prevent bad thing from happening. What a mess.
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 11 months ago
        ...but none of you should have to pay it. Did you thank her up and down for stopping in all impromptu like to save your customers from all the danger you schlep??? You PA shirp menace!! (What's a shirp anyway? A gov thug?? :))
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        • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
          I feel safer already. You hit on something I think of all the time. Occasionally I talk to people about the farmers market and how they don't pay certain taxes and fees. The answer is always they should pay too. My answer is neither of us should pay. We are so conditioned to think that government is the all knowing entity and whatever they say goes that we don't question it any more. It's crazy.
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          • Posted by BrettScott 11 years, 11 months ago
            Same thing with charging state sales tax on internet purchases for the sake of 'fairness'. Not for a moment does anyone consider that eliminating in-state tax would be just as 'fair'.
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            • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
              Yes. Very few people believe the tax should be eliminated. I wish I could remember the congressman who said this but years ago a reporter asked a Democrat Rep if he supported an Internet tax. He said no because it might hurt sales. Um yeah.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 11 months ago
            Exactly!!! I also hate when while talking about the defects of government schools , how classes are too big, no one on one learning etc, the standard response is always, "but that's how it's always been." A) no it is not, and B) even if that were true how does that make it right? The things people accept as unchangeable is frightening. And they learned this limited thought process in public schools. Wake up yo!!
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          • Posted by khalling 11 years, 11 months ago
            well most of the fee goes to paying the government employees created and their cars and laptop so they can collect payment. Does Home Depot have to pay just $40 or is their fee higher? thrips
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            • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
              I am told they all have to pay but who knows. She seemed to think it was really great that she was able to renew our permit on the spot. As if I would stop selling plants during the busiest part of the season while they did some paperwork.
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  • Posted by Notperfect 11 years, 10 months ago
    Where i live here in Michigan it happened to me. We have a party every year here on the lake. Neighbor behind me go mad said I was blocking easement for people to put their boats in. We had words and he said before it was all over he would block me in with no entrance. He thought wrong. You cannot land lock someone here in Michigan if the home was built more than 15 years ago. He still took me to court and still put a fence up, but instead of land lock it was his way of making himself feel good he had to leave my drive open. Fence is a nuisance, but then he called the U.S. Marshall, D.N.R., Fire Dept. and they came out to make sure I was staying within my boundaries and not on the easement. Little did he know I got wind of what was going on so I built reserve signs for each prospective official to park in. When they all came at the same time I never heard so much laughter in my life. We walked down the easement to the water and they told me that the easement was no concern of theirs, but he always had docked his boat right in the middle of the easement in the water. All three men said the land was of no concern as I had quoted, but that the water belonged to the state of Michigan. He now has his boat in his yard and has to unload off the easement without unhooking his trailer. He goes fishing and when he comes in the he has to load his boat and take it back to his property. Want to know what sweet revenge is all about? I never fired a shot. He provoked my neighbors to the east of me which are his family. Now he has asked to park his boat at every dock on the lake, but all have said no. But I am in compliance with my state officials and still have the signs.
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  • Posted by NealS 11 years, 11 months ago
    If we had a media that would back us (the people) we could expose the purpose of these agencies as we encounter them, and report as to where the fees go. I'd be willing to bet the fees do not even fund the agency, they get their funding from other taxes.
    I'd like to see all agencies challenged and frozen until they can justify their existence with reason for existence, then only started up again after a voted approval of the people of that city, county, state, or country. And finally all agencies should have term limits where the people vote on their existence again after some determined time. Nothing in the government should be permanent, it should all require renewal by the people, and that includes the people that "serve" in the government. (Maybe we should draft government employees to serve a term like the military). Government is supposed to be there to serve, not to rule. Hopefully near future elections will get off the party vote and start voting for freedom and real representation of the people. "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore" should be a campaign motto..
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 10 months ago
      The problem is that in concept most people will agree that any specific agency is not needed. BUT have a politician try to eliminate such agency (or even just a law) and the public sector unions mount a campaign to thwart that effort. They are almost always supported by the private sector unions. This may not be a majority or even a significant number, but it is enough in any specific political district, that it can make a difference. And if needed, the unions will threaten to spend money to defeat those politicians. In the end, the politicians are more interested in maintaining their position and power than in doing the right thing. I think this goes back fundamentally to the fact that those that believe in liberty have no desire for public office, and those that want to control others have every desire to seek public office.
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