Now The Military Is Going To Build Robots That Have Morals

Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 11 months ago to Philosophy
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So, can this be done and if so, where does Objective Philosophy fit in the determinations to be made? Who's going to determine which ethical and moral principles form the base of such programming?

From the article: "Ronald Arkin, an AI expert from Georgia Tech and author of the book Governing Lethal Behavior in Autonomous Robots, is a proponent of giving machines a moral compass. “It is not my belief that an unmanned system will be able to be perfectly ethical in the battlefield, but I am convinced that they can perform more ethically than human soldiers are capable of,” Arkin wrote in a 2007 research paper (PDF). Part of the reason for that, he said, is that robots are capable of following rules of engagement to the letter, whereas humans are more inconsistent."


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  • -1
    Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well wasn't that Zenphamy's original question? How do you turn Objectivism into a computer program for guiding automated drones?
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The non aggression principle provides no guidance on how to live your life, objectivism does. That is what makes objectivism a philosophy. The robot could have your flow chart as a piece of it's programming, but for it to have an objectivist base it would have to include protocols for defense of the nation and threat assessment differentiating American forces from foreign.

    I can't really think of many other objectivist premises it would need, but this isn't really my argument.

    I like the flow chart, good luck!
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Completely agree. Attempting dialog is frustrating. When his Shtick runs out he faithfully resorts to liberal tactic #1: defamation by way labeling. Save you energy and your breath.
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  • Posted by ewv 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Explanation to Maphesdus is hopeless. Philosophy cannot be turned into a "computer program" and epistemology is not a "combat co-routine". This is ludicrous.
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  • Posted by ewv 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Philosophy is not politics. "The Non-Aggression Principle" is not "the singular fundamental principle of the entire philosophy". "Part of" does not mean "singular fundamental principle", let alone "of the entire philosophy". Maphesdus doesn't comprehend any of it and keeps switching the words in gross misrepresentations as if it makes no difference and "non-aggression" were equivalent to all of it. He was originally given the benefit of the doubt and he didn't know what to do with it because he is here to attack. Explanation is lost on him and is hopeless because he is intellectually dishonest and quite dense. His hysterical sophomoric railing over his being "annoyed" and "sick and tired" is irrelevant.
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  • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Wasn't Heinlein a big fan of Ayn Rand? I can't remember for sure, but I think someone said he was.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Please point to one of her citations where she uses the term "physical force".

    Based on the totality of what I have read of her writing, "coercion" would be a more accurate term, imo.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Hang on a sec...

    [searching...]

    Robert A Heinlein : "If tempted by something that feels 'altruistic,' examine your motives and root out that self-deception. Then, if you still want to do it, wallow in it!"
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  • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm perfectly willing to analyze my emotions and think things through in a logical and rational manner. I just don't like it when assholes like ewv insult me and tell me I'm wrong without explaining WHY. Even Hiraghm, annoying as he may be, at least has a maturity level sufficient enough to provide rational explanations of his position, even if he is often wrong or offensive in the process. But ewv can't even do that. In nearly every single argument I've had with ewv, he almost never provides anything even remotely resembling a rational explanation of anything, and instead only launches personal attacks and insults in my direction. He's like a spoiled child.

    You seem like a pretty decent guy, Zenphamy, so if you'd like to discuss and debate the deeper philosophical details of Objectivism in a civilized manner, I'd be more than happy to listen to your take on things. Just, please provide rational explanations of your own position, and not merely denunciations of my position. That's all I ask.
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  • -1
    Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thank you for providing constructive feedback (ewv, take some hints here). While I agree that a full program could absolutely be much more complicated than the simple flowchart I created (in fact, it would have to be), most of what you described just sounds like programming for combat in general, and doesn't seem to have any direct relation to Ayn Rand's ideas or Objectivist philosophy. Those are the sorts of things that any programmer/designer would have to consider, regardless of their philosophical stance.
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  • -2
    Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ayn Rand frequently insisted that physical force was the only way to violate man's rights, and that force should never be used in initiation, but rather only in retaliation. That's the Non-Aggression Principle. How is that not part of Ayn Rand's ideology? Seriously, I'm sick and tired of you insisting that I'm wrong without providing any explanation.
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  • -1
    Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well then explain to me what you would change about it. How would you interpret Objectivist philosophy and turn it into a computer program for an automated military drone?
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  • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I seem to run into similar difficulties in conversations with many younger AR readers and libertarians. I think it's just a very hard thing for them to give up on emotional response feedback that can be very addictive for them. They can't, or won't, accept analyzing emotions and emotional responses for reality or seem to have the idea that Objectivists try to shut off their emotions.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Maph: I of course believe that I have a pretty solid foundation in the principles of non-aggression, though I prefer the words of non-initiation of force. I think, where we differ is in the interpretations of what force is or isn't and when and where it's used and applied in a real world situation and what an appropriate and continued level or course of force response is.

    Your flow chart, described as a combat co-routine is a perfect example. It quite dramatically and drastically illustrates the over simplification and limitation of applying force in combat and the lack of Objectivist determination of the reality of actual combat situations. A brief example might be a rear area for combat troops to relax and resupply and the protection provided in order for that to be safe for those men and their support. It might well consist of a layered defense system of roving patrols and observations and detection for outlying areas with bombing or missiles strikes to keep the area 'clean', concertina wire, mine fields, and in our case the use of surveillance and weaponized drones. Is anyone entering that defined area considered an enemy combatant or does the defender have to wait until absolute confirmation of identity before elimination or did the planner need to incorporate such confirmation systems in the mine fields or bombing and missile strikes or in our case the drone strikes?

    The Objective reality we've all had to learn to deal with in all wars, particularly since WWII, is the use of human weapons, even the elderly, women, and children with bomb vests and hand grenades in both active and inactive combat areas. If some of that defense is turned over to autonomous drones with some sort of decision matrix programmed in, what and how are ethical actions instilled in that programming and yet retain the effectiveness of the weapon?

    I'm pretty confident that the program flow chart will be a bit more complicated than what you propose.
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  • Posted by ewv 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Maphesdus continues to demonstrate that you are right. But he is worse than an immature hippy anarchist mentality -- he emotes in such terms, and confuses it with Ayn Rand, but embraces its consequence of collectivism and its imposition by what he admits is "initiation of force" in his own racism and statism.
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  • Posted by ewv 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    To point out that philosophy is not politics and that Maphesdus is repeatedly misrepresenting Ayn Rand is not an "ad hominem argument". He doesn't know what "ad hominem argument" means. His repeated misrepresentation claiming that "the Non-Aggression Principle" is "clearly the singular fundamental principle of the entire philosophy" is false, baseless, and ignorant. He is profoundly ignorant of Ayn Rand's philosophy. That is not an "ad hominem argument" either. It is a consequence of observing his posts.

    There is no "programming" of "Objectivist epistemology into a computer". Maphesdus doesn't know what that means, let alone "provided a concrete example".
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  • -2
    Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Do you even know what the Non-Aggression Principle is? (I'll give you a hint: you just described it.)
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  • -1
    Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    People have argued against me on that point, though their arguments have generally amounted to nothing more than ad hominem attacks and vehemently denying that the Non-Aggression Principle is any part of Objectivism, even though it's clearly the singular fundamental principle of the entire philosophy (you, ewv, have been one of the worst offenders on this point). Denunciation without explanation does not qualify as a legitimate argument.

    The original question, posed by Zenphamy, was "where does Objective Philosophy fit in the determinations to be made?" Ayn Rand always said we should not permit floating abstractions, but rather should ground ourselves in concrete reality. So far, I have provided one concrete example for a potential method of programming Objectivist epistemology as combat co-routine into a computer. That's exactly one more concrete example than anyone else has provided, including you. If you think you have a better example, I'd love to see it.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Exactly ewe; it's always confused me how some can confuse the right of defense into some type of moral constraint system that makes impossible, active defense or sufficient force application to stop aggression or to prevent future aggression.
    What is so hard to grasp about 'my rational choice to not use force or it's threat to obtain those things I need or want in my life from others, but that I won't allow others to use force or it's threat against me.'
    I think Maph confuses a youthful, hippy belief in voluntarist anarchism with the mature, reasoned Ojbectivist life. Those are very different topics.
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  • Posted by ewv 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No it is not. This has been explained to you several times but you keep repeating the misrepresentation. Philosophy is not politics and is not about a "non aggression principle". Ayn Rand also never said that soldiers in a war should not fire unless fired upon, as a "core" or anything else.
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