Denmark sports Negative interest rates. How?

Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 8 months ago to Government
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There are two tricks involved. The first is that the Danish krone is pegged against the Euro even while not part of the EU. The second is that real estate prices have skyrocketed.

Can it last? Sure - until the EU crashes and takes Denmark with it...
SOURCE URL: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-06/denmark-land-below-zero-where-negative-interest-rates-are-normal?cmpid=BBD060616_BIZ


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  • Posted by Abaco 9 years, 8 months ago
    Good for bankers. They can take your money for letting you park it there (savers) AND take your money when you take out a loan. It'd be fair if negative interest rates applied to retail loans. Uh...no...
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    • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 8 months ago
      how about ralph loren closing 50 stores- so you think what is going on in denmark is somehow significant when we the economic engine of the world are collapsing.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 8 months ago
    If B of A charged me for keeping money in my checking or savings account, I would just NOT keep much money in there. Right now they charge me $12 a month to even have a checking account, and the government is inflating the money supply to the tune of 10% a year (at least). So negative interest rates just add to that. As a result my reaction is to take it easy and not work as hard to get more money than I actually need now, keep little money in the banks, and buy silver and gold as a store of value.
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    • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 8 months ago
      There are lots of banks currently offering interest free checking, by keeping a relatively small amount in a savings account. I'd rather put my money in a safe than paying to hold it.
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      • Posted by term2 9 years, 8 months ago
        Theres the bank of the PVC pipe in a secret place in the backyard too.

        I have been with B of A for a long time, but they are trying as hard as possible to sneak in fees regardless of any reasonable balance one keeps with them.

        I will look around to find another bank or banks soon.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
          Ahh, B of A. What a den of thieves, which makes them not much different from the rest of the banksters. I do have an account that I opened in order to have a workable wire function overseas. (Wells was unsure how to get it done in the week before I left and I had banked there for years.) That need has passed and I am switching to a "local" bank for a while.
          My earliest experience with B of A kept me away from them for 30 years. I opened an account in LA after asking how long the hold would be on a sizeable check from Merrill Lynch that I had in hand. They promised 2 days hold and after i made the deposit they held the funds for 10 days. That was when I withdrew the cash, closed the acount, and walked across the street to Security Pacific. i haven't had any trust in BofA since, and still don't.
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          • Posted by term2 9 years, 8 months ago
            B of A took a big bailout, which I didnt like one bit. As long as I can do things online and they dont go south, things seem to be ok with their systems. BUT, if something goes wrong, they are a real disaster to deal with and it takes forever. I like them about as much as I like microsoft. I feel like a victim, not a customer.

            I suspect most banks today, and probably all of them tomorrow will be servants of the government. The bank of PVC pipe in my backyard seems a lot safer than with a bank that can restrict access to my funds at any time
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            • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
              I agree. Competition would change the landscape, but that won't happen until/unless customers take away their support for the system. A lot like the political system.
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              • Posted by term2 9 years, 8 months ago
                I wonder what we can actually do and still function in our lives. Competition in currency has been made illegal here in the USA. Alternative banks are illegal, so we cant open up physical locations. Bitcoin seems to me an interesting approach, but its another fiat money system at heart, given that nothing backs it up. there are pre '65 silver coins that could work in person-to-person transactions.

                My solution so far is to use the banking system as little as possible, assuming that whatever I put into it will be subject to confiscation at any time- depending only on my relative insignificance and obscurity to keep me out of the political spotlight.

                I can see why John Galt made just enough money to survive and didnt interact with the system any more than that. Its amazing to me that Ayn Rand could predict what was going to happen so long ago. Smart lady.
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                • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
                  What needs to be done?

                  Abolish the Federal Reserve and allow individual banks to issue currency. That would re-introduce the competition you correctly observe as being absent from the picture. It would also push us back towards a physical asset-type currency because the banks wouldn't be able to simply issue fiat-based currency.

                  The only way any of this is going to happen, however, is if the entire system breaks down completely worldwide or some natural disaster takes place that effects a collapse. People certainly wouldn't vote for it to happen.
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                  • Posted by term2 9 years, 8 months ago
                    I think you are right. Hillary would die trying to keep stretching the rubber band to help out her contributors. And I agree that people would not vote to get rid of the federal reserve. The political trashing that CNN would do I can only imagine !!
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                    • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
                      The scare tactics alone would be sufficient to persuade most of the "sheeple" currently in the US. That's why I say that barring a total meltdown, it won't happen.
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                      • Posted by term2 9 years, 8 months ago
                        Yes. Take a look at Venezuela where the government has totally screwed up the currency. The people STILL dont just kill Maduro or hang him in the public square. Maduro is just usurping more and more power to paper over his terrible policies. I think it would happen here if there were a meltdown. They would restrict how much money could be taken out of the banking system, and maybe even redistribute what people had IN the banking system to the people in "need"- directly.
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        • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 8 months ago
          I found BofA to be the hardest bank I ha ever dealt with. Got out of there many years ago.
          PVC huh? Never thought of that. If the Clinktons win, stuff may become more valuable than money in a few years into the future.
          Hold a séance and let me know.
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          • Posted by term2 9 years, 8 months ago
            I do a lot of dealings with companies in china and B of A has a great (but expensive) wire transfer system. I tried to go with Wells Fargo awhile ago, but they need me to come to the branch to send a wire. I just cant do that 50 times a year.

            I think I will change my personal banking to another bank though
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  • Posted by evlwhtguy 9 years, 8 months ago
    Wait till the Muslim migration really hits Denmark.....Their social program costs will explode. As will crime. Bottom line here.....the only reason all these European Democracies can afford all these social programs is because the American taxpayer is keeping the Russian Bear from devouring them. Unfortunatly is seems they will commit suicide by swallowing enormous amounts of war refugees from the middle east. These people will not assimilate and will suck Europe dry and eventually...through birthrate, turn Europe in to the same kind of Muslim hell hole they just escaped.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
      "the only reason all these European Democracies can afford all these social programs is because the American taxpayer is keeping the Russian Bear from devouring them."

      Precisely. This was pointed out in another post months ago (search apparently isn't constrained to the Gulch so I couldn't find it).
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      • Posted by fivedollargold 9 years, 8 months ago
        Another reason is that the average person in Europe is poor relative to middle class Americans. In blissful ignorance, they toil to support government, and if they are ever able to purchase a home, it will be tiny by American standards.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 8 months ago
    American banks are eyeing negative interest rates, where they charge you for holding your money as they make money with your money. I would advise most of you to put in a supply of KY Jelly. If Mrs. Clinkton is elected, negative interest is as sure as the phases of the moon to occur.
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 8 months ago
    all of these shenanigans and talk of improving economic conditions is going no where as far as i am concerned. i believe the initial down turn in the economy of the world was actually started when the us government started raising corporate taxes in the 60's and that caused manufacturing companies in the usa to start moving out of the country. the long term affect of these actions grew year after year and eventually the usa as we now know has a greater number of non-working people than working people. as buyers, we were and i guess still are the largest buyers in the world but those who can afford to buy with surplus funds has diminished considerably over the years. the overall affect has effected the world economy in as we know in a negative way. the wealth of europe is pleased to pay the banks in denmark to hold their money for them. they can pay me too. when the down turn doesn't stop denmark will be just as hurt as the rest of the world. without people being employed there is nothing for anybody.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 8 months ago
    Negative interest rates mean one thing, period. Growth is negative and the economy is in decline. That is it. Period. If a country wants to set them, they should deal with that conclusion, like Japan.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 8 months ago
    "Ii see how it works with T Bills at zero interest but negative interest means a T Bill buyer would be paying the government to protect their money minus inflation/devaluation.

    Why would anyone voluntarily trust the government with their money? Much less pay to get screwed?
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
    I don't know if it's related to their monetary policy, but things in Copenhagen just seems incredibly expensive compared to things on the other side of the Oresund Bridge. The Swedes say it's because the Danish economy is so strong. Prices in Copenhagen seem a little high if there were in Swedish Kronor, and then your realize it's Danish Korner, which are worth 25% more.

    That TV show "The Bridge" makes the Danes seems super-laid back compared to the Swedes, but I don't really detect that.

    I love Copenhagen and sort of dream of my family cramming into one of those expensive two-bedroom apartments on one of those little islands about two or three blocks in size. I'm amazed at how they're just connected by one car bridge and a couple of bike bridges. I don't know how they make it work, but I think it's awesome. I love how bike-friendly it is, even compared to Madison, which is supposed to be near #1 for the US.

    I couldn't stand living there though. The first thing I do when I get back is buy a $0.99 32 oz big gulp. :)
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
    I hope they get their monetary policy together. I am confused as to why rates around the world are so low compared to twenty years ago. I know it drives up real estate, but what doesn't it drive up the price of everything?
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 8 months ago
      Short answer: the Fed has been keeping interest rates near zero by buying up (with money it pulls out of its ass) Treasury bonds that the public won't buy.

      The government arranged this because as soon as interest rates rise significantly above zero, the interest on the now 14-digit national debt will be over $1T/year all by itself. And from there it only spirals up into runaway inflation -- there is no hope of the taxpayers ever paying it back. The government is in a trap it can't get out of without hosing the reputation of whoever is unlucky enough to be in office when the public starts to notice the problem.

      Of course creating that new money is more inflation anyway. Just looking at prices locally, I'm sure the government is fudging the Consumer Price Index the same way they're fudging the unemployment number.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
        "The government arranged this because as soon as interest rates rise significantly above zero, the interest on the now 14-digit national debt will be over $1T/year all by itself."
        Isn't it also for reasons of aggregate demand? Suppose the federal budget were balanced. I think they'd maintain ZIRP. I could be wrong on this. Maybe the balanced budget would allow higher growth, allowing for higher rates. I'm hazy on the interplay between monetary and fiscal policy.

        "as soon as interest rates rise significantly above zero, the interest on the now 14-digit national debt will be over $1T/year all by itself. And from there it only spirals up into runaway inflation "
        Generally tighter monetary policy reduces inflation. So in my model, current loose policy should result in high inflation, but that hasn't happened.

        Straightlinelogic has offered some explanations of this that I only partly understand.

        "I'm sure the government is fudging the Consumer Price Index the same way they're fudging the unemployment number."
        I try to focus on numbers I believe in and ignore those I think are wrong. I tend to trust GDP deflator, but I know people have their own methods. In my work knowing the exact number of inflation isn't important. Whether inflation is a 1% or 6% doesn't affect my world either. I know it's different for people doing large equipment and basic materials, but that's far from my world.

        " The government is in a trap it can't get out of without hosing the reputation of whoever is unlucky enough to be in office when the public starts to notice the problem."
        If you mean the fiscal deficit, I hope Gary Johnson takes office and starts to fix it before it turns into an acute crisis. I agree it's politically hard to fix, but it's also incredibly easy to fix apart from the political issues. If they just locked nominal gov't spending at its present level, not a radical suggestion, the problem would disappear. It drives me nuts that we wait until a crisis and cry "hoocudanode!?"
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
          No. The Fed doesn't set rate schedules based on aggregate demand. That would be a market-based approach and they couldn't have that. ;) The Fed sets rates based on the weakness of the economy in general AND how much money they are pumping into the economy either by printing or buying their own bonds. Both the Federal Reserve AND the Federal Government want inflation because it devalues debt service obligations. The Federal Government also likes it because it forces companies to continue to offer cost-of-living increases that don't really affect purchasing power but still push their employees into higher tax brackets.

          "Generally tighter monetary policy reduces inflation. So in my model, current loose policy should result in high inflation, but that hasn't happened."

          Generally, yes. But it also assumes that capital has another place to go for investment purposes, and that is where the model breaks down. Bond returns are actually negative right now for Treasuries. Stock prices are bubbling: rising despite no real growth in corporate earnings or profits. Real Estate is seeing a bubble as well as at least they are a real asset, but they are horribly over-priced in my area (though the county governments don't mind the tax income one bit). That's why many companies are simply sitting on their cash: there is no place to invest it that generates a real return at reasonable risk.

          The other problem is that the Fed is still holding much of the money they printed: they didn't release it into the economy. That would have seen inflation happen, and in general inflation is still happening, it's just in some sectors a lot more than others. Look at food prices for a good example of inflationary pressures.

          "Whether inflation is a 1% or 6% doesn't affect my world either."

          It affects my world (food service) no matter what the number is.
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 9 years, 8 months ago
      Low interest rates did not drive up my estate value...you would normally think it would.
      The rates are low cause they think that will boost capitalism but it's back firering on them...they also are held hostage by wall street, by being threatened with a crash...hmm...seems to me that wall street did fine when interest rates were 6% plus.

      Negative interest rates harms everyone except the borrower. In this case...the banks...how would you like to get paid to take someone's money...the ultimate liberal fantasy...
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      • Posted by Dobrien 9 years, 8 months ago
        Olduglycarl , another thought: low rates have allowed for the greatest looting in the history of the world.

        $19,000,000,000,000.00 and still a crumbling infrastructure. A woeful job environment.
        Basically pissed away. Or spent to control the individual (security) .It couldn't have happened
        If rates were higher.

        $100,000,000,000.00 annual interest owed for every .5% increase ---- $1trillion when rates are
        At 5%
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
          The "crumbling infrastructure" is media hype. It's used to get Senators and Congressmen to sign on to spending bills through blatant pork projects such as generous funding for roads and such. When I lived in Montana I saw several roads there sporting large signs touting that 90% of the cost for the road re-paving was coming from Federal payouts. It's also used to fund the construction companies (usually unionized) who make obscene amounts of money on these projects due to David-Bacon rules regulating minimum pay of $35/hr. I've got an MBA and 20 years in IT and I don't make as much money as that person directing traffic at a construction site.

          "Crumbling infrastructure" is code for union payouts - not real investment in the economy.
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          • Posted by tkstone 9 years, 8 months ago
            I respectfully disagree on one of your points. The infrastructure is indeed crumbling but has been caused in part by the prevailing wage issue you bring up. There has also been gross misapplication of tax money on worthless projects and mandatory spending on "alternative" transportation projects, ie walking trails. The true backbone infrastructure has been neglected and we have been living on borrowed time not just borrowed money. Because we are talking about public projects not enough capital has been reinvested to maintain the engines that keep us running.
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            • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
              It may be different in my area of the Country than yours, but even though my state sports an extremely high amount of road area compared to the number of citizens, we're in pretty good shape. Perhaps you can comment on your area and the infrastructure projects you see lacking.
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              • Posted by tkstone 9 years, 8 months ago
                Sorry for the delay in responding. Been dealing with one of those infrastructure issues. Our water plant is in need of replacement due to age, poor design and, inadequate maintenance. In Missouri a majority of our roads are secondary farm to market roads, but since the traffic counts are low the state can justify not spending much money on them and still keep the public happy because they do not see the deteriorated condition of the roads that bring the food they eat to the table. The waste water collection systems are antiquated and though you are rarely made aware of it they are failing at an alarming rate. Many of these systems are working well beyond their designed life. Water lines are also working beyond their designed life. Your point on unions is spot on. One community I worked for wanted to build a bathroom facility in a park. Just a simple Men/Women two stall bathroom 10 by 20 building. Prevailing wage laws drove the cost way over $100,000! I will agree governments waste money on projects, but it is often at the expense of true need infrastructure. I think about 10% of federal transportation dollars have to go to alternative transport projects like trails. Ludicrous when our bridges are failing. Just last month a major bridge in downtown Kansas City was closed due to a dramatic horizontal crack in the bridge deck. Deferred maintenance is sneaking up on us.
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          • Posted by Dobrien 9 years, 8 months ago
            Ahh so, does that mean you think we got a good value for the 19 trillion we owe?

            My point was regarding the massive debt we owe.

            In my area the Interstate 35 bridge over the Mississippi river in Minneapolis collapsed in few years back.
            For example, approximately 250 of the U.S.' most heavily crossed and structurally deficient bridges are on urban interstate highways, the ARTBA reported. Of these, more than 85% were built prior to 1970. Estimates are over 60000 bridges nationwide are structurally deficient.
            BTW I would rather see a construction worker get the cash then a moocher who won't work.
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            • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
              Good value? Of course not and I appreciate the sarcasm.

              "In my area the Interstate 35 bridge over the Mississippi river in Minneapolis collapsed in few years back."

              Yeah, heard about that one. Here's a question: who is responsible for bridge maintenance? Hint: it's not the Federal Government! They may provide some of the funds, but it is ultimately left to the States to do inspections and schedule repairs and replacements. If there are really that many bridges which are structurally deficient, you need to get on your local and State representatives to get things addressed. I personally would be surprised if even half of that 60K number are actually found to be deficient, however. I'd be more worried about the recent construction: stuff built back in the 60's and 70's was built to last.

              "BTW I would rather see a construction worker get the cash then a moocher who won't work."

              While I agree that moneys should be paid only for services rendered, what I object to is the Federal Government setting the wage rates. Our local construction jobs cost only 35% of the Federal ones because they aren't paying Davis-Bacon rates, but if you want to get Federal funding for a job, it has to be done using Davis-Bacon. But let's take a step back for a minute and look at where the money for paying for this stuff is coming from? It's coming from you and I: the taxpayers! That they spend more than 50% more on a job than they need to means that they are wasting a LOT of our tax money which could be staying in our pockets!
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              • Posted by Dobrien 9 years, 8 months ago
                Thanks Blarman for your reply.
                I totally agree re: govt. mandating wages in private sector.
                Supply and demand should determine with mutual consent of the parties involved.

                The minimum wage issue is a prelude to slavery.

                who is responsible for bridge maintenance?
                Feds control the purse!
                The Federal Highway Administration distributes billions of dollars in federal grants each year to state, local and tribal governments to support highway efforts. Responsibility for building and maintaining highways is the charge of state and local governments, but the FHWA provides enormous support in the form of funding. Using monies collected from fuel and motor vehicle excise taxes, FHWA disperses federal highway funds to cities, counties, state agencies.

                My comments that you replied to; were focused on the ability to use low rates to in effect bury us in debt. As I have stated numerous times interest rates at historical averages ( last 100 years) on our debt would be 1 trillion dollars annually without paying a dime of principal.

                I for a bit of sarcasm I apologize. My intent was not to debate the infrastructure I find it thought provoking to discuss current affairs.
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                • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
                  I actually appreciated the sarcasm - and your analysis. I completely agree with you that the whole thing is a racket designed to bury us in debt and still give the politicians cover to keep milking us for more tax revenues!

                  Please don't feel at all like your comments are not appreciated or worthy of discussion and debate. Keep the discussion alive and we all benefit!
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
      Because their economies are all based on borrowing instead of saving to generate capital. And sooner or later borrowing tails off as those who have the money to invest can no longer find a return sufficient to justify their investment! Not to mention that the currency itself is being inflated to further depreciate the actual value of the investment.

      The global economy is all a house of cards waiting for the slightest stiff breeze to pass through.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
        "The global economy is all a house of cards waiting for the slightest stiff breeze to pass through."
        I vaguely understand there's more leverage now, but I don't get why. I don't understand why the same rates we have now appear to have a different effect.

        I see borrowing and saving as two sides of the same coin. My accounts at the bank are assets on my books and liabilities on the bank's. My loan is their asset and my liability. My gut feeling is there's just too much leverage. It should be a good thing if people are borrowing to fund good ideas. According to my model, the low rates should be causing people to build businesses that hire people, which causes price and wage increases, which requires central banks to raise rates to maintain a low, predictable rate of inflation. That's not happening, so my model is obviously wrong.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
          You are thinking about a free market without Too Big To Fail Banks (who will turn their liability -your asset in your bank account- into their asset to cover their gambling.) This market is manipulated to keep the banks, government, and other non-productive looters afloat while providing nothing to other market participants. This has been the model since 1913 when the federal reserve act was passed at the insistence of the big bankers who designed the act in secret meetings in a mansion on Jekyll Island, GA. The income tax was passed the same year so the bankers would have security on loans (they created from nothing) that were used to finance socialist government programs. The "Great Depression" was caused as a result of these acts stealing from productive people and enriching looters. Under FDR, government restricted banking somewhat as a result by passing the Glass Steagall Act. If they had reversed their corrupt acts of 1913 then the destruction of the dollar would have been stopped, but instead the fed and goverment continued to borrow and interfere with markets. In the late 90s the banking cartel provided funding to candidates to congress and the president and then the corrupt congress gutted the banking restrictions that had previously limited banks from gambling and passing the losses to tax payers by passing the . Gramm Leach Bliley Act which repealed Glass Steagall. See
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm–L...

          Bottom line, CG, is the entire market is rigged to benefit the banking cartel and the fedgov by stealing from us.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
            "the entire market is rigged to benefit the banking cartel and the fedgov by stealing from us."
            I know of two ways this happens:
            1) If you hold cash, it loses value.
            2) If you hold other assets and exchange them for cash, it's usually a taxable event, so you end up getting taxed on the inflation.
            Are there other ways?
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            • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
              Banks also manipulate the market, selling to customers "investments" that they know to be poor, some banksters taking the opposite position from the customers that they are supposed to have a fiduciary responsibility to. Then when they are caught in this, they buy con-gress people so they are not punished, and the people they steal from get no restitution. They produce nothing and loot from everyone else using the power of government to protect them from loss. They have been doing this for over 100 years and have created most market bubbles and busts.
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
                Can you explain this in a practical case? Consider a typical person with some of their wealth in RE and/or their own business and some of their wealth in financial products. The financial products are some stocks, some ETFs, some old-fashioned actively-managed mutual funds that charge a 1.25% expense ratio. On their financial products, they earn 10% nominal return, 7% real return. They earn more on their RE and business, but it's not quite fair b/c they put more time into staying on top of that.

                Are you saying if an investor only invested directly, not through mutual funds or ETFs, they could get more alpha-- a higher rate of return and/or less volatility? I'm trying to understand how their mutual fund, broker, bank, insurance provider is stealing from them. Are you saying the fund managers accept higher multiples that you don't think their future earnings justify? It seems like if there were more alpha to be had somewhere else, people would go there.
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                • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 8 months ago
                  The practical example you are looking for was the sale of derivatives called mortgage-backed securities during the 2002 to early 2008 era. This was the "blamed" cause of the 2008 housing bubble collapse.

                  In reality, the cause was the Community Reinvestment Act, passed by Jimmy Carter. The three congressmen and senators during the 1995 to 2006 era who got political backing to grow the Community Reinvestment Act were Chris Dodd, Barney Frank (as in Dodd-Frank), followed by none other than the community organizer-in-chief, now President Barack Obama, while he was still a senator. President George W. Bush was also much to blame.

                  A nice summary by someone who formerly was in favor of the Community Reinvestment Act before seeing the light is at:

                  http://www.businessinsider.com/the-cr...
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                  • Posted by Dobrien 9 years, 8 months ago
                    Jbrenner Sorry to correct because I agree with your premise.
                    Mortgaged backed securities are
                    not derivatives they are typically a pool of mortgages lumped by duration or coupon.
                    What Are Derivatives? Derivatives are securities with a price tied to an underlying asset and can be classified into forwards, futures, options and swaps. These instruments are useful to businesses seeking to hedge their risks, whether they are a producer or consumer of agricultural products, metals or energy, or a pension fund needing to reduce its exposure to fluctuating interest rates.

                    Standardized derivatives have detailed terms and specifications for each class and series of contract and are usually traded on an exchange. Other types of derivatives are traded over-the-counter (OTC) and are unregulated. However, their implicit leverage and risk can be dangerous when used for investment or speculation without enough supporting capital.
                    - See more at: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/the-role-of-d...

                    I would also add Clinton eliminating Glass Steagle Act, oh and not to forget the ratings agencies giving AAA ratings to junk.
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                    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 8 months ago
                      While your statements are correct, your correction of me ignores other definitions of the word derivative, including the way that I meant it.

                      Mortgage-backed securities are a derivative investment, but not in the way that most financial types classify derivative investments. Mortgage-backed securities are a pool of assets that has been securitized. In that sense, they are not derivatives. However, in another sense (the sense that I meant it), mortgage-backed securities are backed by other assets (i.e. mortgages), and therefore are a derivative investment. There are multiple meanings to the word derivative. If the economists truly understood the proper meaning of the word derivative (i.e. the calculus definition), then options and futures investments would be bets on the slope of the price, rather than the prices themselves. A classic example of this type of derivative investing is the VIX.

                      Also note the following document by
                      Joseph G. Haubrich, Derivative Mechanics: The CMO (which stands for collateralized mortgage obligation, the worst kind of mortgage-backed security), Economic Commentary, Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, Issue Q I, pages 13-19, (1995).
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                  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
                    I note your use of the passive voice in "was blamed". There's nothing at all wrong with that, but I'd like to know who is doing the blaming. It isn't me. Speculative mania existed prior to mortgage-backed securities and those measures you mention.

                    What makes this "stealing" (and your suggestion a good example of what I asked for) is the series of bailouts. I wrote to my Congressman and senators to oppose them. Bankers talked as if their business failing was "the end of everything", imagining that their enterprise to provide capital to worthy projects ceased to exist, worthy projects would cease to exist. In reality someone else would have stepped in to serve those customers if existing institutions collapsed.

                    Policy makers and financial institutions had gotten themselves in a quagmire IMHO by having money market funds and mortgage securities tacitly backed by the US gov't. If the US gov't is going to guarantee things, it needs to be clear on which things are guaranteed (e.g. MMAs) and which things are not (e.g. MMFs). To me this gray area of being tacitly backed by the US gov't was the problem.
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                • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
                  Depends on whether someone wants to be a looter or a producer, CG. If one is "investing" in products from Goldman then he is supporting the looting system and encouraging the looters to continue rigging the system. There is no free market there, CG. It's a gang of thieves who rig the system to steal returns from productive people and businesses, especially upcoming small businesses who would be competition for the existing power structure businesses. It's a cultural disaster with some of the brightest people using their talents as parasites on producers instead of becoming producers.
                  The ethical approach is to remove your support from the looter parasitical system and invest directly in the means of production. Its similar to the strike in AS but not taken as far.
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                  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
                    "It's a gang of thieves who rig the system to steal returns from productive people and businesses, especially upcoming small businesses who would be competition for the existing power structure businesses."
                    I just don't get how they're doing this. I get what jbrenner said about bailing out risky loans: the money from the bailout comes from people who succeeded and flows to people who made bad deals. I do not get the "looters rig the system" thing. If I take equity as payment, you don't think that's rigged. If an older person who's had success wants to provide angel funding, that's not rigged. But it becomes rigged when a large institution does the same thing?
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                    • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
                      Look into securities laws and who has a government blessing to work with companies to issue securities (supposedly to protect widows and orphans "for the greater good.") Banksters. They have inside information about every company that issues public shares and they often receive shares in payment sometimes also seat on the BOD of small companies. They also control the share trading systems and make markets in shares. Small companies share prices are manipulated by these insiders. They also manipulate demand for shares both positively and negatively. They also have inside connections to large companies (because they are licenced to issue their shares, too.) These large companies are direct competitors with the small companies and have a financial interest in (a) seeing the competition fail, and (b) acquiring the competitors technology as cheaply as possible. Banksters on wall street have the ability to puff up share prices when they are long the shares, and after selling them to the suckers and going short they crash the share prices. This puts money directly into the pockets of the banksters through shares sold and sold short, and destroys the small companies' ability to raise equity when needed (except by massive dilution of ownership at low share prices.) Guess who buys these cheap shares? The banksters and the competition. the productive, innovative small company gets swallowed up on the cheap and their IP goes to the looters. Thanks to securities laws, its mostly legal. The banksters have a monopoly on equities, so as long as they put a disclaimer in the small print the investors are screwed.
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                      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
                        "Small companies share prices are manipulated by these insiders. "
                        Maybe I'll never get this. We can "manipulate" a small company right now from our desk just by taking a large position in it.
                        "Guess who buys these cheap shares?"
                        Anyone who wants, right. We can do it from our phones. If you're thinking you're a simple investor and just want to hold the shares b/c you think their onto something big, you can do that. If you feel like it's needlessly volatile you could own the shares and write calls covered by them. If they get called away due to this "artificial" volatility, you could write puts every month, and then if you should get assigned, you own the shares again. If you think analysts are creeping around the company to get information before you do (you're probably right about this; they can be tricky in my experience) and it's bad enough you don't want to own the shares, invest in some enterprise whose management team you believe in and that you feel you have a solid handle on.

                        Maybe I'm wrongly interpreting what you're saying as victim thinking. You've been very patient with me trying to explain, but I still don't get it.
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                        • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
                          You are assuming that the new shares issued at cheap prices are available to you. They are often transferred in private placements and don't trade on the open markets until later after manipulating the share prices. You don't set the price on the small company shares you trade from your phone either. Its set by the market maker in the shares. He can ignore your order forever while filling his company orders. Unless you want to place a stop loss, where he will lower the price down to your stop, steal your shares at that price, and raise the price back up to sell the shares at a profit. I have watched it happen repeatedly. The game is rigged and you are the mark.
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                          • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
                            Now you're making a claim I can understand. You're saying if I think I'm a market maker for stocks and can make a money on the bid/ask spread, then I'm confused. I obviously know that. If you're saying fundamentals are more important than technicals, I agree with that too.

                            Isn't what we're saying true for everything? I imagine your wealth is in local investments that are way less liquid than stocks. When you acquire them, the seller has no obligation to sell you to. In fact, if you buy RE at the steps in a small county, maybe local investors have an informal agreement not to bid up the price too much and to let the deal go to who's "turn" it is. That doesn't make every RE investor a mark.
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                    • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
                      If they are the ones artificially creating and manipulating the "value" of the products they buy and sell, can you see how that is theft? Many of the derivative products aren't really actual assets or claims on assets - they are completely fabricated.
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                      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
                        " Many of the derivative products aren't really actual assets or claims on assets"
                        I just don't get this. I write a put and you buy it, it's an asset on your books and liability on mine. It's a transaction we enter to transfer risk from you to me. Why are we bad if we want to enter into such an arrangement?
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                        • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
                          I never said you were bad, I said you weren't trading in actual assets.

                          "Puts" and "calls" are also known as stock "options" and are contractual obligations to purchase or sell actual assets at predefined prices, but these aren't necessarily derivative products. Derivative products are things like index funds and such, where they are measures of something else entirely but don't actually constitute tangible assets.
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                          • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
                            ". Derivative products are things like index funds and such,"
                            Like people trading instruments that attempt to track the spot price of some commodity. I think you're point is their asset appears as a liability on someone else's books, or vice versa, whereas if they held the actual thing, they would own it without it appearing on someone else's books. They say, I'm 10% in gold, but they're really not. You're saying their 10% in contractual obligations intended to track gold.
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                            • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
                              Yes. And gold ownership is one of the most fraudulent derivative markets out there. I read one report that stated that there are 65 claims on each ounce of gold in the world. That means that if you aren't holding it, you don't have it and your "ownership" is about as valuable as a piece of paper.
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        • Posted by Dobrien 9 years, 8 months ago
          Does your model factor in the bureaucracy that is stifling small business. Does your model factor in the govt spending spree that is not productive.
          Had the $10,000,000,000,000.00 spent by the looters to mortgage our future been spent on infrastructure or on relaxed taxes and fees for start up businesses the wage growth would happen and less talk about min.wages.
          Sadly trillions have been spent on DHS facilities and war games to corral the most irate citizens
          That they are supposed to be representing. You all know we're the rest of the take went.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
            "Does your model factor in the govt spending spree that is not productive."
            Yes. We had periods of high spending before without ZIRP. Gov't spending isn't good, but it alone does not account for this phenomenon.
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            • Posted by Dobrien 9 years, 8 months ago
              You had a model with many factors that I was responding to.
              I say read what you wrote "I vaguely understand there's more leverage now,but I don't get why"

              The reason is that the country is being looted by (your hope and change) govt.waste ,regulations, entitlements.

              If you disagree that the squeeze, the regulations the non-productive expenses that I very generally described on small business aren't the reason for your model to be "not working" then.

              You should present your evidence.
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
                "If you disagree that the squeeze, the regulations the non-productive expenses that I very generally described on small business aren't the reason for your model to be "not working" then. You should present your evidence."
                The reason is I don't see a sudden change in the legal environment. I see amazing room for improvement, but I don't see it having changed in my lifetime enough to account for the fall in rates I've seen during my lifetime.
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                • Posted by Dobrien 9 years, 8 months ago
                  "I don't see it having changed in my lifetime"
                  Maybe you don't look. Or you are a teenager.

                  Major Regulations 153% Higher in First Five Years Under Obama Than Bush

                  Government report finds regulations have spiked under Obama | TheHill

                  The pace of agencies issuing new rules and regulations has hit a record high under president Obama, whose administration’s rules have filled 468,500 pages in the Federal Register.

                  Red Tape Rising: Six Years of Escalating Regulation Under Obama

                  Obama pushing thousands of new regulations in Year 8 - Politico

                  For starters.

                  The low interest rates allowed your "hope and change guy" to virtually bury us in debt.
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                  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
                    This sounds exaggerated for political reasons, but even if it's 10% true and gov't influence in the economy changed 5.3% in five years due to the influence of one person, it's astounding. It's what the Founders hoped to avoid. Executive power needs to be limited.
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