How We All Miss the Point

Posted by lrbeggs 10 years, 1 month ago to News
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'They are distractions from what is right in front of you and me and the victims of tomorrow’s shooting: people who need help. And while we’re all fighting over whose pet cause is more right and more true and more noble, there’s likely another young man out there, maybe suicidally depressed, maybe paranoid and delusional, maybe a psychopath, and he’s researching guns and bombs and mapping out schools and recording videos and thinking every day about the anger and hate he feels for this world.

And no one is paying attention to him."

I agree with Manson's take on this terrible issue.

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  • Posted by Kath 10 years, 1 month ago
    But this kid had attention. He was under psychiatric 'care'. We can't lock up everyone who is struggling. Psychologists and psychiatrists are terrible at predicting behavior.
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  • Posted by salta 10 years, 1 month ago
    I am convinced that the motivation for these massacres is the desire for notoriety by a small percentage of those who are already suicidal (as indicated at the start of this article). It is not simply the desire to kill strangers. Changing the way the stories are reported in the media could significantly change that. The ideal of keep their name secret is impossible with todays social media, but professional media outlets with a voluntary moratorium on using the name, would just refer to him with phrases like "a suicidal youth", or similar. Nobody wants to be remembered as an anonymous troubled person, it takes that incentive away.
    Sadly, there will always be suicides, but making small inroads to fix that problem does nothing prevent the next massacre.
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    • Posted by Bobhummel 10 years, 1 month ago
      It would help to attach the earned stigma of "cowardly act" to those who kill others in their hope to commit " suicide by cop "and go out it some demented blaze of attention grabbing notoriety. They are simply and only notorious.
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      • Posted by salta 10 years, 1 month ago
        Agreed. Good journalism would successfully imply the negative stigma while keeping the name out of it. I'm sure it would really deflate the main motive.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 1 month ago
    I tend to think that sociopaths/psychopaths and mass killers have always been with us. Our difficulty today is that we give them celebrity and publish their manifestos, and we've given up our responsibilities to protect and defend ourselves. We've been convinced by social engineers that we can prevent, as a society with policemen and psychologist, all danger and bad things or not have to deal with them personally.

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  • Posted by Bobhummel 10 years, 1 month ago
    Because they are killers! Because they are evil in their lack of respect for the lives of others. You can add Holmes (Colorado AMC theater shooting) to this list as well as Nathan Dunlap and his cold blooded murders at the Aurora CO, Chuck e Cheese in 1993. Dunlap shot and killed Sylvia Crowell, 19; Ben Grant, 17; Colleen O’Connor, 17; and Margaret Kohlberg, 50. And our idiot governor Hickenlooper granted him a reprieve from the execution of his death sentence

    "But this “witch hunt” we go through every time a school shooting happens is a total ruse. Elliot Rodger didn’t become a killer because he was a misogynist; he became a misogynist because he was a killer. Just like Eric Harris didn’t become a killer because he loved violent video games; he loved violent video games because he was a killer. Just like Adam Lanza didn’t become a killer because he loved guns; he loved guns because he was a killer."

    And what do all these things have in common? They were gun free zones! Concealed carry was not permitted by citizens who obey the laws. So the first point in this list below should be:
    1. Armed intervention was not anticipated or imminent!

    "There are a few reasons for this:

    They occur in everyday public locations which are supposed to be safe.
    The victims are targeted and killed at random.
    The victims are innocent bystanders and often children.
    The killers leave behind large amounts of material about themselves for the media to share.
    The perpetrator and victims are generally upper-middle class, white, and privileged."

    It is an easy call to stop someone evil. They have earned the bullet.
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    • Posted by Bobhummel 10 years, 1 month ago
      I failed to add the cold blooded murder of a beautiful 17 year old young lady at Arapahoe High School last December, Claire Davis by a person who's name will never cross my lips because he is a coward sub human piece of s#!¥. He only killed one because an Arapahoe County Sheriff and a security guard were on the campus and forced the perpetrator of this heinous act to kill himself before he could kill any one else. He was targeting the school librarian/debate team instructor.
      Good people with guns stop bad people with guns. Guns change the calculus of individuals and of governments.
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    • Posted by TheOldMan 10 years, 1 month ago
      I disagree with the misogynist label for this killer. It seems to me that he was angrier at the men who were successful in attracting women.
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      • Posted by Bobhummel 10 years, 1 month ago
        I think the point is, these pieces of human debris are murders first and it is the ubiquitous media that is in search of a reason that sounds erudite and fits in a 30 second on-air sound bite. Anything to advance the notion that we are all victims and we can only be protected by government intervention, personal liberty restrictions, or the knowledge that our dear leader is " very angry" with the situation.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 1 month ago
    I agree too.

    To be a good parent you must really stay connected to your kid(s). It's not easy. I can't help but think that if any of these famous school shooters had better parents they might not have gone bezerk. But...just one man's theory. Many, many parents just mail it in. They get wore out, focus on careers, etc. Meanwhile, Timmy is spending long hours in the basement taking his meds and playing Doom. At least that seems to be part of the pattern...
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 1 month ago
    I don't think people aren't paying attention. I can recall hearing that family members knew they were deeply troubled, tried to get them help, or the help wasn't helping. The next step beyond that is an infringement on individual rights. It's a slippery slope. As one of them said, "if they had searched my room the whole thing would fall apart", but is that what we want? Police coming into our houses and searching because someone said they heard someone say something off base, or because they're anti-social, or weird. (Some people are anti-social just because they want to be, it doesn't mean they're dangerous). So we have to be careful here. The author makes some good points, but he didn't have a solution. I for one will not give up my freedoms for 'safety'.

    On a side note, I have a friend who has a daughter with mental troubles and you have NO idea what it takes to get her admitted for help, and she's a minor even. So perhaps that's where improvements should begin. If parents are begging for help for their troubled kids and they get turned away time and time again, how's that going to end? I sure HOPE obamacare is going to CHANGE that problem.
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    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 1 month ago
      I have a similar experience. A close family to mine has a now 17 year old daughter. It was identified early in her teens that she was sociopathic- except it is not legally allowed for that diagnosis to be made on an individual before 16 years old. Lots of counseling and crimes later which she still fools DHS, several escapes and running away, it culminated in leaving her family fearful for their lives. There have been many court dates where the state has refused to let the family take care of their daughter in a private institution and because she has committed crimes and so is in the "system" despite repeated pleas from the parents that she is a flight risk etc, they keep putting her in foster care situations where she dupes everyone. Despite the parents' repeated warnings regarding her M.O. and their fears she will do something truly violent to others, they had no choice but to continually write letters to the Judge and Court making a bright line. Currently, she is in a facility which keeps her locked up, but when she's "cured" or time served, her family will live in fear again. How terrible to bring up an individual in love and only to have this psychological condition change everyone's life. You cannot love a sociopath. Because they are incapable of receiving or giving love. They have no remorse, no conscience, only an insatiable desire to control, out smart. I am hopeful one day we will have successful treatments including physiological solutions. There are few options in our society for protecting people from sociopatheic teens in part because they are not allowed to be diagnosed.
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      • Posted by skidance 10 years, 1 month ago
        I had a few similar clients while working for CPS. They were manipulative, intelligent, violent at times, could fool most people, including judges and therapists, destructive, etc.

        One had a diagnosis that excluded sociopathy, possibly by mistake or because of her age. I knew better but had no say. She could not be held in foster care, preferring to be hospitalizedinstead, thus costing the tapayers significant sums. Because of liability issues, emergency personnel always acquiesced. Nothing could be done to help or control this client, so finally the court shrugged its shoulders and sent her home.

        If private, locked hospitalization had been available without court consent, I believe the family might have chosen this option.

        No, I don't know what became of this client--although she may well become a politician someday.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 1 month ago
        " she was sociopathic"
        Can you give me a definition of "sociopathic"?

        I can find this very dangerous diagnosis being used to commit Objectivists...
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        • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 1 month ago

          [soh-see-uh-path, soh-shee-] noun Psychiatry.
          a person with a psychopathic personality whose
          behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who
          lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social
          as an objectivist, I am selectively social, carry
          a heartfelt sense of moral responsibility plus
          social conscience, and pay very close attention
          to acts considered criminal by the society
          in which I live. I tend to avoid these acts.

          this does not smell like I'm ready to commit. -- j
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    • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 1 month ago
      I am sure that nothing good will come from obama's
      nationalization of health insurance -- but a carefully
      reasoned mental health care option must arise. the
      danger of encroaching on personal freedom must
      balance against the danger of violence. some very
      bright person will solve this and become filthy rich.

      any takers??? -- j
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 1 month ago
    Hello Irbeggs,
    Years ago government made it more difficult to order involuntary committal of mental patients. Perhaps this was a good thing, but when multiple psychiatrists confirm necessity, it might not be a bad thing. At least for a short term for further observation. No one opinion should be sufficient. Perhaps three should be required. That said: If there is one place that more restrictive gun laws may be required (although in the recent case some murders were done with a knife) this may be it. If a person is under psychiatric care like this young man was, then his name should have been added, with approval of several psychiatrists, to a national database that would preclude him from the purchase of firearms.

    If we encourage gun ownership among those of sound mind and discourage those who are not, much could be done to limit the carnage of innocents.

    Additionally. I concur with what others have said about media contributing to the fame seeking problem and not doing enough to demonize and vilify the evil.

    In this case, if you are a parent and know your child has issues, why would you not be involved enough, or be allowed the power, to prevent the acquisition of weapons in order to at least reduce the potential?
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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago
    Heartbreaking that parents have no resources to act as their at-risk children's advocates. Our health and court systems won't allow it. So often they injure or kill family, friends, and other children. Such a tragedy.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 10 years, 1 month ago
    Lack of attention is selling the situation short. Kids brains are manipulated as early as kindergarten. They are exposed to amateur psychologist, teachers acting as psychologists, trying to set them on a path of socialism. Step one, distance them from their parents. Tell them to trust only their peers. This was used in the Governor's School under Clinton in Ark. A woman lawyer, once close to her son, noticed he distanced himself, became withdrawn, after attending there. Then, he killed himself.
    A year before Columbine happened, a Littleton area TV station held a panel discussion on the dangerous effects of then Outcome Based Education, being used in that school. It went in for the psychological manipulation, taught kids they would be reincarnated so what they did was temporary, drove them from going to parents for guidance. A panel of concerned people, like B.K. Eakins spoke to the matter, and said nothing good would come from putting this Clinton driven curriculum into the Columbine system. Our local parents' group viewed a tape of the show a few weeks later.We had seem the ghastly things going on in our own schools under Outcome Based Educations. Our feeling was a joint, "Bad things will come from this" about Columbine. A bit over a year later, we were not at all surprised.
    Locally, our students turned on the teachers, threatening to break their legs, throwing things at them - which surprised teachers who felt they would only turn against parents!
    When students are exposed to psychotropic drugs, be it taking them or withdrawing from them, are told they will return if they die, and are distanced from parents - bad things happen. When teachers feel they can use Maslow group therapy in the classroom, cause cognitive dissonance, and do group hypnosis on whole classes of grade school children - why would anyone expect any other results?
    It was reported at the time that the FBI was also online with the future killers, baiting them.
    Yet, what did the media and experts cover, guns!
    Maye the students need less of this kind of attention, and more parental and grandparent involvement.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 1 month ago
    I hate to sound Peter Blatty-ish, but over the years it has been my experience that certain people are just plain evil. I don't know if they're born that way. A.R. said that we're all born "Tabula Raza" a blank slate. Perhaps so, but I have witnessed men who from childhood on were just plain bad and for no apparent reason. Some call it the "Bad Seed." I feel sheepish about putting this forth, because it seems not so irrational as un-rational. But humans are extremely complex creatures, and certain ones seem to be just put together with some sort of faulty wiring.
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    • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 1 month ago
      we had an E-2 (Airman) living in the barracks, on
      active duty, who was a discipline case -- personal
      grooming, late arrival, poor performance -- who
      painted his barracks room black. this was the straw
      which got us. the First Sergeant got with personnel
      and he was gone. some are just bad. rare. -- j
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 1 month ago
        Two of my father's tales of his experiences during WWII involved basic training...

        During basic, they had a guy who never bathed, never kept his kit up, etc.

        The platoon got together and gave him a G.I. bath... floor brushes and lye soap... he straightened right up.

        Another guy was anti-social, inept... kind of like that character from "Full Metal Jacket" I gather.

        Every time they did target practice with 1911 pistols, they had to turn them in to the armory. The pistols were hung on a rack in the armory. Each magazine butt was painted white, so you could see which weapons still had magazines in them. And of course you could easily see when a weapon was missing.

        One day a pistol wasn't turned in... they searched all the barracks, and found the pistol in the misfit's footlocker... along with hundreds of rounds of ammunition. He'd smuggled the ammunition one round at a time, in his mouth, it was concluded.

        Another poor misfit was "goosey" as hell. If someone goosed him, he'd jump three feet. One day during inspection, someone goosed him just as the sergeant was going past.

        The poor s.o.b. reflexively decked the sergeant...
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 1 month ago
      There may be some truth in that...
      Personal anecdote:
      (actually, I suspect I've shared some or all of this long ago...)

      My eldest brother is 10.5 years older than me. He always looked very much like me; at times it was like looking at a mirror into the future.

      He also was a sado-masochist for whom there was no such thing as "truth" or "falsehood".

      For khalling's sake, I won't go into the details of some of his actions. Just take my word for what he was.

      All my life growing up, I feared turning into him. It never happened. Quite the opposite. I became so... empathetic to life that, at one point, I wouldn't even kill insects (they have such tiny little lives as it is...)... my conscience wouldn't let me lie; if I tried, I would betray myself or outright confess. I mean even white lies like the kind used to spare feelings... The memory of being chastised by my 3rd grade teacher for "vandalizing" a bulletin board next to my seat still brings a blush of shame to my face, 40+ years later.

      In spite of my fears, my personality was completely unique and pretty much the opposite of his.

      I think there was one experience which caused this divergence. If so, I owe my current character to a long-deceased dachshund named Pompey.

      I was, perhaps 4 or 5. Pompey wasn't your typical hotdog; he was huge for a dachshund. I used to chase him around, trying to get his attention. I tried brushing his teeth when I smelled his bad breath. I would pull his tail, kick him in the side... for the life of me I have no idea why I was sadistic to that poor animal. God forgive me.

      One day, I pulled his tail or otherwise tormented him, and he bit me. He didn't leave a mark, but he did make the mistake of doing it in front of my father.

      Now, I know I've expressed elsewhere what a good man my father was; but this dog dared bite his little boy. He beat that poor dog on the spot, and the dog just stared at me the whole time.

      I knew... I *KNEW* it was my fault; that he was suffering because of the evil inside of me. (maybe this is what made me a Christian decades later...)

      There was no conscious revelation; from that day forward, on an emotional level, I carried the shame of that with me, and it changed me into the person I am today. If not for that incident, I might well have turned out as evil as my eldest brother.

      so the short comment is, I think AR is right to a point. The slate isn't entirely blank, but it can be erased and rewritten at early stages of development... imo.
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