Who or what is worth saving?

Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 1 month ago to Philosophy
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RimCountry, Zenphamy, Robbie, and a couple of others have been posting a lot of comments about the Article V convention option.

The primary point of disagreement that we have is over what is worth saving.

Are the United States and some of its individuals worth saving? The United States was certainly worth saving until recent years. In my mind, probably about 2007 or the first half of 2008 was the last time it was worth saving. After the TARP bailout, I would argue that the US is no longer worth saving. Certain individuals are worth saving, such as Rearden or Dagny within AS. Most are not. Eddie Willers is an important character in this respect. He was very good as a chief of staff for Dagny, but didn't have the ability to think independently. He was not sought out by those in Atlantis as worth saving. I would not have objected to Eddie Willers being permitted in the Gulch.

The question regarding what is worth saving is a fundamental difference between objectivists and Christians. Christians believe that all individuals are worth saving and evangelize accordingly.

As for whether the United States is worth saving, I suppose that depends on what the alternatives are. If we start a nanosociety founded on objectivist principles, then that would almost certainly change the answer to that question for many of us.

Many of us are torn between the last remnant of the United States, arguably the only society founded on principles that would not be seriously objectionable to objectivists, versus leaving and starting from scratch.

Are looters worth saving? Are moochers worth saving? To objectivists, these last two questions should be rhetorical. It certainly is not a rhetorical question for Christians. Jesus, for instance, had a tax collector as one of his apostles.

Is anyone who voted for Obama worth saving? Unless that person makes the argument that he/she was trying to hasten the end of the looter/moocher era, that question should also be rhetorical. Is anyone who intentionally blanks out so that he/she can further a political agenda worth saving? Would Ayn Rand have viewed intentional blankouts as unforgivable sins? Can such a person ever be "redeemed" if he/she grows into an understanding of objectivist principles? I am reminded of Winston Churchill's line about how if you are 20 and not liberal, you have no heart, but if you are 40 and not conservative, you have no brain.


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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I actually admire that about her, now that I know it.

    One of the hardest things for me in my attempts at writing is hurting my protagonists.

    In Ben Bova's, "The Craft of Writing Science Fiction that Sells", he explains the necessity of beating hell out of your protagonists.

    Still, I will live and die by my rule that in my fiction nothing bad ever happens to dogs. (Well, in Roarke's Drift I bend it a bit...)
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I didn't vote for Romney in 2012... I voted for Col Raible and Sgt Atwell...

    Who are Raible and Atwell?

    Two American heroes who could not vote for themselves...

    http://michellemalkin.com/2013/05/01/the...

    I cast their vote for the only candidate A) eligible and B) capable of making their loss count for something.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    So you voted for someone not eligible to hold the office?
    Nevermind, I see now you voted for 3rd party.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Cool... see, this is why I love history.

    Wait... what time period was this?

    (I *wondered* what happened to that stash... thieving Britons....)
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    The devil is in those hormones. :) Team work accomplishing mutual goals or solving problems gives one satisfaction and pride. Throwing money into bucket is shortlived and hardly sustains any feeling of generosity for long. In fact sometimes creates dismay like when you find out the administrative percentages United Way takes before redistributing monies to other orgs or scandals like Red Cross went through in Katrina aftermath. You are supposed to use your mind for these things. Separates you from apes.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Do you know how much *work* that would involve? I mean, to do a responsible job of it.

    Nah, I wouldn't want to rule Mankind... just ruling a death camp full of progressives would do for me.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 1 month ago
    The question also included weighing whether America is "worth saving". jbrenner asked: "As for whether the United States is worth saving, I suppose that depends on what the alternatives are. If we start a nanosociety founded on objectivist principles... " My reply is that any place can be "worth saving". If you have some measures for a cost-benefit ratio, Zimbabwe is worth saving. The question would then be, what place is _not_ "worth saving"?

    As for an Objectivist society, this gets discussed and debated so often as to be cloying. Remember that in a village, privacy does not exist. Consider the 250 most active posters here and then imagine living (where?) with and among them. Villages are stultifying. That is why smart people leave them and move to cities. Urban cultures thrive on non-conformity. That must be so, as a law of nature, otherwise no marginal utilities could exist.

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  • Posted by $ Mimi 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I that's why I could never be a true Ayn Rand follower. I think that it is biological hard-wiring more than personal philosophy that instructs us on what is best for us. It’s not in your nature to live for your own self-interest. Fine. I buy that. And unlike the more extreme Ayn Rand students, I think generosity is normal and necessary that you should continue to be generous because it is your nature. Obviously, some people are hard-wired to be altruistic. Science has measured the feel-good hormones that are created by volunteering. The mistake is thinking society has a whole would operate better if we all were charitable. I don’t get a thing out of volunteering. It doesn’t make me ‘feel’ anything.I bet my hormones don’t change at all.
    The problem lies within the power structure of a society to bet one side against the other when we work better in tandem with the selfish people out in front.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    No, it will only usher in those who continue to promise. Look at the bit cities, hell look at Detroit as the "shining" example. It has been "ruled" by D's forever. Once the largest enclave of millionaires in the world, now it is a seething cesspool of moochers/looters. And even after decades of the same, they refuse to acknowledge that that does not work. They fight tooth and nail against anyone trying to bring them out of it. Unfortunately, the owners of my company live in the Detroit area and have been conned into donating our services (process improvement) to the city to "show them the way." I told them early on that before they could expect any improvement there needed to be a fundamental cultural shift away from looting/mooching - like the city was doing in guilting them into donating their services - a city, btw, that has an estimated billion dollar art collection that they refuse to use to convert into revenue, instead seeking to extend their tax reach further and further into the surrounding communities, those that are still solvent.

    No, the Gulch was an interesting contrivance and plot mechanism, but there will not be such a rebirth should the US go under. If it does, it will usher in what I fear will be centuries of a neo-Dark Age. No, not technologically, but culturally. We will collapse to a state worse than the dregs of Europe. Luckily, growing up in MN, I don't fear the cold, so I'll likely emigrate to Canada, eh.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I didn't vote for him whose name should not be uttered, or any Democrat in a presidential election ever. I voted libertarian.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Ominous Parallels by Peikoff was written in the 80's but I count the last two elections among the O.P.s maybe if schools taught how to recognize tyranny and societies prime for such we'd stay ahead of the evil that slithers in the instant we leave a hole.
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  • Posted by Maritimus 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    "Hope and change" Hope for what and change to what?
    Just before the 2008 election I told my kids that when I look for an analogous election within the bits of history I know, the closest, by far, was the election of Hitler in Germany. A country in trouble, people confused and ignorant, looking for a "Knight on the White Horse" (or is it House)" to save them from the self generated mess. No clear definition of targets for the hope. Change meant "transformation", an obvious pleonasm. No explanation of "change to what". And Americans, as did the Germans about 80 years ago, gobbled it up. Shame on us! I do not blame us for hoping. That is one of the most fundamental cravings of humans. I blame us for being ignorant, irrational and disinterested.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    You've put your finger on the problem and the solution all at once:

    " It's the preeminent example of democratic/capitalism."

    This is not the important thing about the United States, at the moment. The important thing is that we are a *republic*; we have a foundational, fundamental bedrock of law called the Constitution.

    The thing to convince the proles of, since we can't cut them from the nanny state cold turkey, is that the foundational law is to their benefit. That that foundation isn't a barricade to happiness, but an engine to achieve it.

    There's a problem. The left have been given free reign for 60 years to alter the minds of Americans as they were growing up. The traditional values of honor and responsibility have been eroded, largely through the use of Hollywood. In part they've been replaced by Asian philosophy, which has always denigrated the sovereignty of the individual. (I seem to be the only person who ever noticed that in "The Karate Kid", it was Japanese Mr Miagi that was espousing American values and the blond-haired-blue-eyed karate-instructor cum villain who was espousing Bushido....)

    In the field of warfare, history has shown that victory goes to those willing to view the battlefield and the war as it is, and not as it should be. In this case, the battlefield *isn't* Reason, Rationality, Reality. The battlefield is virtually all emotion-driven. Look how the left has preyed upon the populace; not with appeals to reason or even enlightened self-interest, but with appeals to emotion.
    Example: they don't argue how raising the minimum wage will improve the economy, because they can't; there's no rational argument to support it.

    No, they argue about the poor "workers" who can't raise a family on minimum wage. They accuse the right of wanting to starve children and drown puppies. They paint anyone who opposes it as a rich fatcat unwilling to share in his largesse; anyone arguing against it who isn't wealthy they paint as brainwashed serfs.

    Always appealing to emotion, not reason.

    So what we have to do, imo, is find emotional appeals compatible with rational, reasonable reality.

    We are being provided with the tools to do so. The NSA scandal appeals to paranoia. The populace already doesn't trust the government neither in honesty nor in competence. The problem is having the ability to counter-propagandize. When every tv show, movie, and most pop music reinforces the emotional conditioning that's been induced over the past half-century, you can't simply sit in a cafe' or on an internet message board and argue reason with people. You've got to get the message out the same way.

    So, how? I may have stumbled upon it. Watch the two videos below. Seriously; study them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zrFhm84...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6_Vxs4Y...

    In the interview, listen to the numbers cited, and to what they say about how they came about.

    She has 4.5 million subscribers to her Youtube channel. One of her videos has NINETY MILLION hits. As the interviewer points out... the population of Germany is 89 million. She's *now* #1 on iTunes and #2 on Billboard 200 (as of a few days ago, anyway).

    That's a big audience, and they're not watching her sit there and dryly argue individualism. But, at the end of almost every single one of her videos, she makes some comment about the importance of the individual *and his own ability to achieve something great* (watch the "Transcendental (Orchestral)" video, "Beyond the Veil" and "Shatter Me" videos to see her do this at the end of each video in a personalized message). This is all wrapped up in a delightful, cheerful, optimistic, giving package, everything the proles eat up.

    While Rand seemed gloomily focused on warning of the evils of collectivism, she seems optimistically focused on the joy and glory of individual achievement.

    There are others on Youtube following her formula for success with varied results and with varied messages.

    The progressives don't yet control venues like Youtube. Using her as a template, and considering how much less expensive it is to produce a Youtube video than a Hollywood blockbuster (less time, as well...), such "alternative media" can be used to rationalize much of the existing, young minds. And make a profit doing it.

    But, it takes people willing and able to make such videos, and it takes people able to package the message in cheerful, compassionate optimism. It's going to take people able to write, people able to do videography, people able act and/or perform... in short, people with talent who also believe in rationalism, who can relate the message in upbeat ways.

    I'm going to be late for work, but I just had to edit this to point out something I knew all along but too easily and frequently forget. There was another person who packaged individual achievement and rational reason in an optimistic, upbeat message... We used to call him, "President"... Ronald Wilson Reagan. Who governed one of the most optimistic, upbeat, and successful periods in recent American history.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fy-uhxi...

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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Well it might have been in someone 's rational interest to remember taking their wife home with the meat. Sheesh family dinners.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Hmmm. Then pick up Capitalism the Unknown Ideal. I know you will agree with much. Also consider taking a course either from ARI ot TAS. Sort of a re set on rational self interest and work through the epistemology. This is very important. Also consider sponsoring a student to the Atlas Summit. You already do a ton from what you 've shared but the exposure to Objectivism to your students is priceless
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