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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 11 months ago
    We must getting to them. I'm surprised that the script writers would even have mentioned Ayn Rand. Maybe this was their subtle way of evangelizing for AR.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
      It snidely misrepresented Ayn Rand as writing about "blowing up buildings" and the "rich going on strike", and smeared her as a "twelve year old's view of the world" -- all said by the dominant character as a supposed answer to "read Ayn Rand". It was a gratuitous insertion of a snide misrepresentation, with no correction by any other character and having nothing to do with the plot of the show, just a dishonest and deliberate jab at the personal values of an articulate opposition to the left which must be repeatedly misrepresented as their "argument" against it. Yes, she is "getting to them" and this is the kind of cheap trick they exploit to try to stop people from listening to something they can't contend with.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 11 months ago
        Isn't it amazing how long the liberals can maintain a facade of prosperity, honesty, integrity, transparency? It may be to us. Ayn Rand thought they could maintain such a facade for a very long time, or else Atlas Shrugged wouldn't have been so painfully long.
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
          "Painfully long"?
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 11 months ago
            As on p. 460 of AS, the end of Chapter III of Book 2, "Francisco's smile was like a moan of pain, the only moan he would permit himself. 'I won't ask it, Mr. Rearden. I know it.'"
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 11 months ago
            As Ayn Rand wrote in Atlas Shrugged,

            “It meant nothing to him any longer, only a faint tinge of sadness--and somewhere within him, a drop of pain moving briefly and vanishing, like a raindrop on the glass of a window, its course in the shape of a question mark.”
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            • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
              jbrenner: "Atlas Shrugged wouldn't have been so painfully long."

              Snippets from isolated descriptions within the book do not make the novel painfully long.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 11 months ago
                You are correct. I was providing examples of the dull pain that I feel waiting, waiting, waiting for the time when this country will return to its original values.
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                • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
                  You seemed to be talking about Atlas Shrugged, not some personal pain of your own, since you referred directly to "Atlas Shrugged" as being "so painfully long" to read.

                  The personal "dull pain" you refer to isn't supported by the two quotes you gave. Francisco was referring to his own understanding of why Rearden would not quit, and the other one was Eddie Willers' sadness resulting from his own loss of idealism. Most of the scenes in the valley illustrate a very positive sense of life in what they could achieve themselves despite the destruction in the outer world.

                  You should reassess what leads you to feel an endless dull pain waiting for this country to return to original values. For one thing, there is a good chance that it will not, at least for a long time after your lifespan. You shouldn't base your life on unrealistic expectations of what others will do as necessary for your own sense of life as something better than chronic dull pain for the rest of your life.

                  It is frustrating to experience the destruction when you know how much could be possible, and we should never lose sight of that fact, but it doesn't prevent you from achieving what you can personally in your own life and experiencing the rewards of that, especially the psychological rewards for a person of independence. That is still possible in a mixed economy -- for as long as that much lasts -- despite the injustices.

                  There is also justifiable fear of what you are threatened with, depending on your circumstances if government agencies are directly persecuting you. Different people are being adversely impacted to different degrees in different ways, and brutes have a way of inflicting long dull pain.

                  But none of that should reduce the essence of emotional experience of life to a "long dull pain" as a dominant reaction -- remember the scene in The Fountainhead where Roark replies "only down to a certain point".
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 11 months ago
                    OK, ewv, you're right. The pain was felt by me as I understood exactly what several AS characters were going through. I had the same visceral reaction regarding Roark's character as well. I don't let it affect me long term as much as you probably think I do. I am much more resilient than that.

                    You are correct. It is likely to be a very long time for America to return to its roots. I doubt that it will ever happen. Having sold a company because Obama led customers away from my biofuel company to solar companies like Solyndra and having my parents lose $100 K as a result of his illegal handling of the auto bailout, etc. are just two of the effects that government has had on me directly. I want no sympathy. I have done quite well in my life, even in my shrug era (the last 5-6 years). Let us just say that AS opens up wounds that I would rather just let heal. I was a Dagny-type for a long time. Shrugging is not natural for me, but it was the only logical thing to do. I am anxiously awaiting our re-emergence, either in America or in our Atlantis. Anxiously is the key word. I used to be patient, but the day after day needle pokes of Ellsworth Tooheys like Obama and his minions have worn my patience thin.
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                    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
                      I can understand and identify with all of that. But I didn't have the same experience initially reading the novel because it was an earlier stage in two ways. First, the country hadn't disintegrated as badly as it is now, and second I was an optimistic college student pursuing science and engineering with little concern for or interest in the alien political realm at all. I could identify with the sense of life of the characters in the context of their own story, unrelated to any personal relation with the culture or political problems.

                      I still appreciate the novel in the same terms, though of course awareness of the parallels with the politics and culture around us has been forced on us all. I still despise politics, but learned not long after reading the novel that action in that realm is necessary for self defense, which over the years has meant both general trends in politics and elections, and some very specific activism. We have had some notable successes in heading off some very bad injustices, but the trend continues to worsen.

                      I have no patience for them either but mostly hold them in contempt rather than waiting for improvement. Sometimes there is relative improvement, but it is only part of zig zag path in a net downward spiral.

                      I don't advocate a 'shrug' movement as a means of making a difference either for society at large or a smaller group seeking some kind of asylum, but there is a limit to what I will tolerate in working for punishment, and I understand why some people would take a comprehensive 'shrug option' even though it isn't "natural". Everyone has his own circumstances and his own limits.

                      In our case we have been punished and viciously persecuted for speaking out, but refuse to stop. In the suspicious minds of paranoid bureaucrats those who speak out against them "must be doing something wrong", and they pursue punishment exploiting arbitrary power without regard for objectivity. (We are all starting to see that intimidation on a grander scale the way the Obama administration has repeatedly regarded the tea party movement as being "terrorists", and the consequences of that will become worse, especially with the growing mass surveillance used for "parallel construction" of motives for government action). So though our circumstances are different, I empathize with the personal experiences you referred to in your own life. You do deserve sympathy, just like Rearden and the rest. But there is no Ragnar to help.
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                      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 11 months ago
                        Most people in my non-Gulch life would have no idea that I have shrugged. I am a workaholic and enjoy > 90% of it. Being an engineering professor has its rewards. What I have shrugged from is starting tech businesses. The first one got bought out by a larger competitor, and that worked out well enough. The second case was kind of sad. One of my partners was a real life John Galt. He invented the equivalent of Mr. Fusion from the Back to the Future movies to convert a variety of hydrocarbon wastes to energy, fuel, or chemicals. If it is the economical way to go, that company will get restarted in Atlantis. For now, it got sold off to a company that hasn't capitalized on it much. I am still on that company's advisory board.
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                        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
                          Shrugging means dumping the parasitical weight off your shoulders, not stopping living and working. Everyone in the valley was portrayed as remaining a 'workaholic'. Your being an engineering professor is one way to do it. Are there maps and driving directions to Atlantis or do you have to go in by crashing through a ray screen?
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                          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 11 months ago
                            Agreed. The closest we have seen to Atlantis at this point is Galt's Gulch Online. We are talking about putting together a real Atlantis, but at this point it is just talk.
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                            • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
                              This site is a very long way from any Atlantis. Try http://forums.4aynrandfans.com/. There has been "talk" of a real one, including fantasies about new countries on artificial islands, for decades, but it isn't practical. Maybe a private enclave resort for a month out of the year could work, the way the first "real" one started.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 11 months ago
            OK, it was long. You knew what the ending was going to be from near the beginning, but the length added to the dramatic effect. It was painful, as in long suffering - kind of like how Francisco must have felt at having to blow up his own mines.
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  • Posted by joelap313 9 years, 11 months ago
    Ya gotta love the "...the rich go out on strike" comment. Not "the producers", not "the people who do all the work", but rather "the rich". Might want to read the book again, lady...
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 11 months ago
      It did focus on the rich, but I clearly got the idea it was the producers, not just the rich.
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      • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 11 months ago
        Producers are rich, but not all methods of accounting involve money. I feel that a successful producer, happy with his own level of productivity in one industry might achieved what some may see as vast riches, but another producer may accomplish much less fiscally but gain wide acknowledgement as a scholar or perhaps a car dealer.

        In the areas that I've pursued in business. The first one (real estate) I was a total failure at due to a lack of training in the field. But that failure taught me how to succeed in the next two industries.

        The second was as a general contractor that specialized in military construction projects that other contractors had failed to complete. I hired good men that I paid well enough that they never even thought about looking for another job. I made certain they knew that their success was linked to my success. I examined exactly why every contractor I was replacing failed to complete a job and if I did not understand their failure, I passed on the job. The biggest thing I learned from my first business was to NEVER attempt a job that I did not KNOW how to finish.

        My third business was/is one that is based entirely on my personal ability and performance. Each item I produce is hand tooled by me. Each ball of clay I use is mixed and produced to my chemical formula and the glazes that are applied are the result of several years of careful experimentation and analysis. When I price each piece I follow instruction offered to me by one of my most gifted professors - "Charge enough for it that you won't mind seeing the piece in somebody else's home".

        I don't make many pieces, but I charge enough for them that I don't have to.

        I have what I feel is the greatest job on earth, I turn mud into gold.
        .
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  • Posted by freedom_flora 9 years, 11 months ago
    I note that the "Good Wife" character wrongly states that "the rich go out on strike."

    Actually, it's "productive people" who strike.

    Whether they are rich is quite secondary to the plot, but I suppose that this shallow character can't understand that production often leads to wealth.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
      There were several prominent rich villains in the novel who pointedly did not go on strike (what could they stop doing?). The left's class warfare rhetoric about "the rich" substituting for the "productive" was no accident.

      Neither was it an accident that the script misrepresented her novels as being about "blowing up buildings". An interesting plot twist and dramatization in The Fountainhead of a creator withdrawing what had been taken from him is not so subtly replaced with a stock misrepresentation of mindless violence as supposedly characteristic of Ayn Rand.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 11 months ago
        Good points.

        But then the left really only has the mental maturity of a 12 year old.
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
          That may be, but the seriousness is in the content of their ideas. The destruction is a consequence of that. The stagnation of so many peoples' thinking processes to the level of a 12 year old is only part of the destruction that accelerates the rest.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 11 months ago
            No doubt that there are those who are quite cunning, very "learned" and have a much more expansive view and understanding of the world. They are the puppetmasters. What I was referring to were the sheople - the masses - who don't bother to think for themselves and only want to be taken care of and told what to think.
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            • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
              I don't think that the anti-intellectual followers seeking to be taken care of can be characterized as the mental maturity of a 12 year old. There is a good deal of evasion and shear evil that is psychologically more "mature" than a 12 year old could dream of, and a normally functioning 12 year old who is at all intellectually active is much better.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 11 months ago
    Gary Cooper made Howard Roark come alive the way no one else could have. So much for that criticism.

    A twelve-year-old's view of the world? I'd say the character in "The Good Wife," and the script writers, were trying to throw off on Rand with that remark. I mean: they are the ones with the twelve-year-old's view of the world.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 11 months ago
    In this one clip, I can't tell if the script authors hold the snide view or just the character.

    This is the most biased line, and it's not that bad, in the dialogue spoken by the pro-Rand character: “Because there are more people who want than people who have. Read Ayn Rand.”

    It seems like he may be implying there're not enough goods and services to go around, so we need childish philosophies to justify why some people have more. My opinion, and I think the opinion put forward in AS, is there are infinite goods and services if we only go out and create them.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 11 months ago
      I think he meant you have more people who want than people who make the things others want.
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      • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 11 months ago
        I go with your interpretation. My wife and I looked at each other and laughed out loud after that clip on the GW, which we watch on DVR regularly. I had to back it up to catch the dialogue we missed when we were laughing.

        As the archaic phrase goes, "chillax, guys..." The writers, if they're as liberal-lefty Hollywood as we trust they are, they would not miss a chance for a cheap shot like that, and the situation served up a softball for them to try to hit out of the park. So easy to do when you're controlling the pitcher, catcher, batter... :)

        Hell, maybe some viewer might have their curiosity piqued by the comments and go Googling... who knows?

        And my wife and I are constantly amazed at the string of curve balls the writers throw into the story line(s) EVERY episode! We're in a constant state of WTF can they think of next, as we predict, several times during each episode, that 'well, THAT'S not going to end well...'
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  • Posted by brucejc04 9 years, 11 months ago
    I am not surprised at her comments. My personal experience with those who say they do not like her books is that, when questioned as to have they actually read them, every single one has replied "Well no, but my friend told me about them" thereby becoming what Ayn Rand called an "Intellectual Second-Hander". These "Intellectual Second-Handers" are rampant in today's society. No one wants to read to understand.
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    • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 11 months ago
      Reading requires a lot of work if you are going to really achieve anything from your efforts. It's much easier to sit back and allow somebody else to tell you how you feel about a subject. I thing the problem is even darker than AR may have visualized as possible. (oh my, did I just go there??) With our incredible access to information today, it is possible to spend days digging through website after website reading one persons opinion after another and never finding out what the basis of all the confusion really was.

      Tonight I started to read about a particular news item that I wanted more information about. I knew the real problem lay in the interoperation of a law and what the law exactly said. It took me 3 hours to find what actually turned out to be a city regulation. At any point I could have quite searching and accepted what a reporter offered as the "real law" and had I done so, I would have been just as wrong as 3/4 of the people offering their opinions on websites I saw and read - who were all most likely regurgitating what the reporter had errorously offered up.

      It might actually be forth handed information or even fifth or sixth handed.
      .
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 11 months ago
    A network screenwriters character of someone portraying the liberal Chicago (home of the current socialist state) viewpoint, on a blatantly liberal network, written by a guild that has very deep roots in the Communist party? Why am I not surprised?

    The only other ones I've heard using the same anti-Rand vitriolic are those (a) currently involved in (and very proud of their association with) the various communist manifesto / Workers of the World Unite schlock, (b) the "Anarchist" movement players, who are deeply tied in with (a), and the "Occupy (wherever) movement"... again, parading their pride in their involvement in the former.

    Never forget the Marxist manifesto requires their system be adopted universally and absolutely, and having the screenwriters act on their behalf to include their propaganda (overtly or hidden) into the brainwashing tool of the modern era (network TV entertainment dramas) is intended to spread their ideas, and gain complete acceptance, among the sheeple of America.

    What amazes me is how people suck this scum up as if it were gospel, and spew it as fact, after watching it on a propaganda feelie on TV, and not see it for what it is. (And then get offended when they get called "Sheeple"...)
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    • Posted by Kittyhawk 9 years, 11 months ago
      I'm not sure which "Anarchist movement players" you're referring to. Noam Chomsky is a liberal who says he wants anarcho-communism, but most advocates I've come across are in favor of anarcho-capitalism. Anarchy means "without rulers," and I think anarcho-communism is a bizarre contradiction in terms, since it would require rulers to decide who gives and who gets, and enforce the outcome.

      I came across a video by Stefan Molyneux last night discussing this show, and defending Ayn Rand. He is a more typical anarchist, in my experience. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeXblLS4l...
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      • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 11 months ago
        The "destroy everything, cause civil unrest through violent disobedience" type. Popularized by the letter "A" in a circle, and wearing a "V for Vendetta" mask.

        They were pretty popular for a while among young liberal miscreants, and followed closely by Law Enforcement. It was said the original "occupy" movement was suborned by this group...
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  • Posted by RonC 9 years, 11 months ago
    "A twelve year old's view" Seems to me that the demographic all the networks shoot for. The schools have dumbed down the kids with with potential and the networks can now broadcast this swill they call news and entertainment. The low information voter not only lives in America, they rule!
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  • Posted by Flootus5 9 years, 11 months ago
    I would ask the question if she has ever read any of Ayn Rand's books herself. Or parroting the usual propaganda. I was around 10 when I began reading Ayn Rands works - and am still amazed at her insight and prescience as Atlas Shrugged becomes "now non-fiction".
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    • Posted by $ Terraformer_One 9 years, 11 months ago
      @Flootus5
      If you have read about the time period that Ayn Rand grew up in, you will recognise that she was writing about events that had already happened.
      (Take over by the bolsheviks / communists in Russia and FDR's New Deal of the 1920s).
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      • Posted by Flootus5 9 years, 11 months ago
        It's very true Ayn Rand was drawing on personal lifetime experience, the context being not only the time period, but where. However, there is no doubt she was applying it to her adopted country as a warning of what will come. Hence she provided much inspiration for Leonard Peikoff's "The Ominous Parallels". A comparison of America in his "today" with Nazi Germany. 1957.

        FDR's New Deal was in the 1930's by the way.
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        • Posted by $ Terraformer_One 9 years, 11 months ago
          @Flo
          Thanks for correcting me on FDR's New Deal.

          I agree that by writing the history as a novel that future generations would be able to learn the pattern(sequence of events) and know how the slippery slope unfolds.
          It is only by being aware of history's patterns that we can have a chance to make sure they are not repeated.
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          • Posted by Flootus5 9 years, 11 months ago
            Great points.

            Along the lines of Ayn Rand writing from her personal history, for the first time in 40 years, I recently reread Anthem. Talk about distilling it down to the essence! This should be encouraged reading for all teenagers coming of age. I think now I must reread We The Living.
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  • Posted by jimslag 9 years, 11 months ago
    Their attitudes are one of the reasons a good show went south and I no longer watch this liberal outlook on life. CBS is in the pocket of the liberal agenda, just look at their news division and how they support the current administration in their lies. This goes for all the other networks also. Any news organization is promoting some sort of train of thought. This is right out of AS, where the government controls everything.
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  • Posted by KosherGuy 9 years, 11 months ago
    Obviously we must be getting to them if all they can do is denigrate Ayn Rand and her philosophy. Offering ridicule instead of a cogent argument. A food fight among kids.
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  • Posted by $ Terraformer_One 9 years, 11 months ago
    It was a great way to reference Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged right under the noses of the bureau of censorship.
    Of course it had to be slurred to get past the mental filters, but the more it gets mentioned, the more offers to watch the film adaptation of Atlas Shrugged might be accepted.

    I have been able to get people to watch the movies that would not have any interest in reading the book. I use this method to slowly educate on the importance of a philosophy for living in the world.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 9 years, 11 months ago
    I admit, I have only seen the show a couple times, usual liberal crap. However, I very much doubt the actress ever completed, if she even started, reading AS. She would know, however, that any 12 year old coming out of public schools is a socialist by brainwashing.
    I think the "want. than have" comment was a was a lament that there was not enough socialism to please the lady.- and that everyone (except the politicians and actors) should have equal, while the rich liberals would continue to have what they want. That is utopia as Hollywood sees it.
    Thank goodness I can tune out liberal actresses and actors, and watch old movies, FOX News or CMT. Old movies had people who were heroes, like Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable, John Wayne, and Gary Cooper.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 11 months ago
      You left out of your list a real hero; Audie Murphy. And Tyrone Power. Sterling Hayden. Jack Palance. Lee Marvin.

      I pay for cable (way too much) almost solely for Fox News, AMC, and TCM.




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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 11 months ago
    I have heard that Ayn Rand's work was immature and simplistic for years. Of course, this was coming from immature and simplistic critics. What they actually cannot cope with are heroes who are truly heroes. Their protagonists must be deeply flawed and the flaws eventually destroy must them. They must be tragic figures that we should all be able to identify with because we are all just like them.

    Critics use as an example that the majority of "Randoids" are young and have not experienced life, which is why her books appeal. Of course, in many cases the young have not been polluted by the negativity of other philosophies and are elated by heroes that are truly heroes. Besides, I can introduce you to at least two old Objectivists, me - 80 and my son- 54. So, there, you @#$%$#@!!!
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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 9 years, 11 months ago
    Even negative advertising is advertising. I wish they would mention her every week. Maybe in the opening show of the next season a character will ask "Who is John Galt"
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  • Posted by Notperfect 9 years, 10 months ago
    As they have said and done before "by any means necessary". Re-reading would not be a novel idea for a person who lives in a bubble. When that bubble bursts then maybe. And yes it bugs them to the brink that Rand is right and she knows it.
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