U.S. Crews Fail To Place in NATO Tank Competition

Posted by $ nickursis 7 years, 11 months ago to Government
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Hmmm.. with 2 kids of my own i the Army, one who actually fixes tanks after they break them, they have indicated a huge drop in both morale and competency. Maybe this is proof of it. So much for the vaunted Army. Maybe we need to lay off a few Generals and hire some privates..
SOURCE URL: https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-crews-fail-place-nato-153459769.html


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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 11 months ago
    With a Commander-In-Chief who is in reality a Dismantler-in-Chief it is hard to imagine anyone in the military who is not depressed over their careers.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 11 months ago
      Pretty much what this former Army guy thinks.

      http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_se...

      Watching the videos, It seems this is far more a personnel test than an equipment test. I suspect an M1 Abrahms can out run and gun any of these diesel clunkers.
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
        Indeed, he seems to nail it, and is pretty much what I have heard as well. War is political violence, and you cannot just go in bad places, and hope the natives will "vote" for you, because when they vote against you, it is with AK47s and RPG/IEDs. The Army top brass has snet a lot of guys to their deaths with wishful thinking. Not unique, Bernard Montgomery (WW2) did that a lot as well...
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 11 months ago
          LMAO we used to say Politics was an extension of War with a cynical attitude. It must be since it serves war so admirably. Give peace a what? Not a chance if votes and profit are involved. .
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
            Exactly. No good politician can resist a good war, or make one if needed.Reminds me of the movie from the 60's where the little country in Europe declared war on the US, just so they could surrender and get reconstruction aid...
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  • Posted by jhagen 7 years, 11 months ago
    When the new Commander in Chief first spoke to the head of NASA, he changed NASA's main objective to promoting his favorite religion. I have to believe he did something similar for the military.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 11 months ago
    "North Carolina National Guard tankers beat their Regular Army counterparts-and crews from the U.S. Marine Corps and Canadian Army-at the U.S. Army's 2016 Sullivan Cup."

    Yes, give the militia tanks and we will defend America better than the "professional" soldiers.
    Not to mention saving $500 billion a year and letting the rest of the world defend itself.
    Sounds like the Germans, Poles, and Danes can handle defending Europe without American "help."
    Bring the troops back to help at home.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 11 months ago
      Milita and National Guard are two entirely different things.the first is purely a state organization. the second is a quasi but on call federal reserve.

      Not a lot of miitary expertise in this forum I can tell.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 11 months ago
        No military experience here, Michael. Being a pawn for statists isn't my preference. People who have served in the military have been treated poorly, but that is typical of empires.
        I don't need military expertise to know this.
        Jefferson thought a national standing army was a bad idea. It encourages unnecessary war and mistreatment of everyone below rank of general (and even some generals.) It also encourages raising to power a few military leaders who have done little but murder innocents, President Grant, for example. Both world wars were caused by stupid actions of politicians, not by the people or those in the military. I think this is also true of every war America participated in since 1790. Undoubtedly the next war will be caused by power hungry looters, too.
        None of this is the fault of those who serve in the military, but by their consent (excluding those forced to serve) they give power to the empire that it hasn't earned.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 11 months ago
          Good point. if it's worth doing enough will come forward. The trick is to use those who do come forward and not waste them. Resorting to the draft is an admission of failure from the start.
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          • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 11 months ago
            Note that although I was in college, I took no deferrment from the draft. I was as eligible as all others of my age, but I did not volunteer to serve. I guess the instinct for self preservation exceeded the nationalistic brainwashing slightly.
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
        That is true, National Guard is the "weekend warrior club". I was going with Mikes use, assuming he meant that,as I am unaware of any "official" state militias. Lots of "unofficial" ones around....
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 11 months ago
          All states have a militia if they use it. Some are volunteer groups whose purpose is to man the armories in the event of unit deployment. In WWI and Korea aftermath local cities took many of those structures as abandoned. The participants are usually those who have retired from the Guard.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
      The problem is that the Empire's leaders (re: Obamanation) still play games with using military intervention as a tool. The Republicrats liked the option much better. Neither party respects the military, the Republicrats make nicer noises at funerals. The militia would just become unemployed with long deployments, despite the laws saying you can't (I think they only have to keep you on a year but could be wrong) notwithstanding. A lot of reservists got screwed with Dester (yournamehere) adventures. Use force only as a last resort (ala Asimov), and when you do, use it hard and fast.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 11 months ago
        The republicans can afford to make nicer noises at funerals. The death rate of us service personnel in wars started and operated by them is at best 18:1 with the Democrats killing off more of us for nothing. If you are on a long deployment how do you become unemployed?
        Also when the deployment is over the current version of the law protects the returning National Guard or Reserve who must be given his old job back and any promotions or pay raises. the only time limit is upon release from active duty there is a time limit to report back to work in the old civilian job. Many reservists welcome the active deployment precisely because they had no civilian job.

        Militias are a state level only formation and not part of the active or national reserve forces The words national guard say national for a reason. they are not militia. If any party does have respect it's going to be the RInos the only part of the military that likes the socialists are female voting for Hillary.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 11 months ago
          That was easy to agree with, but I have a couple of quibbles. I think you meant a ration of 1:18, as you pointed to the Republicans first.

          Also, we have many socialists and liberals in the military, and they are good patriots. (It is called "national socialism" for a reason.) Recently, here in Texas, we buried this soldier:
          http://www.statesman.com/news/news/st...
          He served in the U.S. Navy during the Korean War. He also served 20 years in the Texas State Guard. And he was a liberal Democrat.
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
            Mike, no doubt there are indeed good, honest patriots on both sides. I can disagree with their politics, and when they support sticking their hands in my pockets (which is not a liberal dem item only) but you must respect their service. However, being in power for 20 odd years I am not willing to qualify as service, it too often becomes empire. I would say I rarely ever heard anyone speaking of "giving more" to a group (except enlisted E6 and below, who seemed to be universally able to get support from everyone of any stripe for pay and benefits) so my experience with declared liberals and socialists was very, very limited.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 11 months ago
              The bush wars that would be Kuwait...and Iraq they get full credit up until Obama declared Iraq won. Obama Wars started with Afghanistan and the return to Iraq and now the ISIS mess. the onlydifference is both Bush's got the requried War Powers Act approval. Clinton and Obama just ignored it.

              Prior to those days and the invasion of kosovo for no apparent reason things were a bit more clear cut.

              but the rule is start the war take the credit for the deaths and the finishing score. LBJ Truman, Roosevelt, Wilson are the four big examples of the socialist wars of the 20th century. As for E6 and below I heard of people who actually retired after 20 at that level but found it hard to believe. They would starve to death on one half base pay. And that 15 year deal with it's buy out to go back on active duty was a real scam artists wet dream for the government. All those people were on half pay awaiting call up to age 45 or 55 depending on skills. Staying read WAS their job. So why did they have to pay it back. What a crock.

              Liberal Dem is an outmoded useless term. There is the government party of Socialists and Rinos...and the rest are not allowed in the game.
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  • Posted by philosophercat 7 years, 11 months ago
    As a former tanker(M-60's) I am ashamed. But the military is now under Obama an instrument of social change not a fighting force. FIre 20% of the officers and close 10% of the bases and get them in the field. And fix the VA.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
      Not bad ideas, I liked the way Heinlein handled officers in Starship Troopers. Absolutely the right way. My sone is an E7 Combat Engineer, who says that only 20% of the units that go to practice basic combat skills in CA pass. They have focused on small unit warfare so much in the last 20 years, large unit combat is not a skill anymore. Supposedly they are going to rectify that but estimate 10 years to get all of them retrained.
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      • Posted by philosophercat 7 years, 11 months ago
        It must be hard to have a son motivated to do great and heroic things only to be bogged down in bureaucracy. The problem is the military only becomes effective in combat because the ass kissing officers get killed and the tough fight on and up the promotion ladder. .
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
          Well, he is at least no begoggled by BS and knows what is really up. But I get from him there is a lot of issues hiding in plain sight that are being ignored, or the upper floors are unable to pay attention.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 11 months ago
    Of course moral is at an all time low and proficiency in anything is lacking. Everything we valued has been attacked, ridiculed and perverted by shear nonsense.
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  • Posted by jimslag 7 years, 11 months ago
    Note that it was militias (not regular army) that started and fought for our independence. It was farmers and lawyers and shopkeepers who took the fight to the British. There is much to be said with not being trained in fighting skills. As a veteran, there is much to be said about how we train our military. There is such a thing as overtraining and we do it quite regularly. There are some good programs and real world training, such as the SpecOps does is good. However when everyday people best the supposed best the regulars have to offer, it just shows that you don't need to be the best trained, just the best that works together as a team.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 11 months ago
    Nothing new or unusual there. What was Poland, Denmark and Germany doing for the last year or ten? Practicing.

    In the 70's it was routine for competitive teams sent to these contests to practice year round. In the mid 70's Southern Command then in Panama drew straws sort of and randomly selected squad size teams per each battalion size unit for the rifle, pistol, and M60 MG competition. My team of 12 were tagged and began preparation three months in advance. We also went to the actual range one month in advance and fired the course twice a day. It was no contest against teams who previously had fired for record only annually. Not only that we had more experienced veterans and zero newbies. Why? Our unit did not take them until three years of service or so as a preference. We routinely ran firing courses for other unit's. to scare off the others our last day of practice featured firing pistols at 100 meters against M16 rifles. We also knew wind and temperature conditions for each part of the day. The next level I think the Puerto Rican unit who had been shooting together for years once again took first place. All the other teams at that level were also the local Army Marksmanship Unit instructors.

    We had learned the hard way to bolo or flunk the first go round on purpose to get extra practice. We had three chances. at 105 rounds each. Most of our unit fired Expert on the second or third round. A few sharpshooter and none at the lowest Marksman level. The same applied to most any kind of ordnance. The funds weren't there for that level of practice.

    Add to that over deployed people who have been denied pay raises or COLA adjustments by a 'grateful nation' there is a certain give a stuff attitude.

    Now tell me how many wars that same military has lost recently? Answer. None. The one's you are thinking of were given away or given back etc.

    Treat your military despicably you find they soon despise you.

    And now everyone is in a panic. how droll how typical how despicable.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
      Yes, back then there was a lot more emphasis on preparation and practice. I assume a lot of the rust is caused by a lack of any today (costs). The overall economic imbalance and fragility, in addition to the huge outlays to buy votes, have impacted that. There are a few articles running around about Air Force readiness, where squadrons may have 5 or 6 of 12 or 14 planes able to fly, the others being donors of parts. B1's are particularly hit, using boneyard birds to try to keep going. But you also have to ask wherre the heads are who come up with billions for Navy ships (Littoral designs) that break down and cannot function, or planes that have numerous issues (Raptors) and the constant spending to try to fix a flawed design so they don't look bad, and look worse in the process. The SSN Virginia class is one of the actual good stories of something built and designed that came in under budget. the Rear Admiral running it was my weapons officer on the Will Rogers in 1977/8.Good guy and has done well for us.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 11 months ago
        My particular beef is with the airforce refusing the ground support role and dumping the A10s. No replacement in sight or in mind. The Army should kept that as an Army Air Corps they are not much use to the infantry that's for sure without the aircraft to do the mission. Or is it a case of nerves.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
          Indeed an excellent point. The hog has proven itself to be one of those one in a hundred designs that just works, and is cheap to fly. Yet business interests keep pushing the politicos on the need to replace it, so they can have another program to milk and overrun. The Navy has been doing the bulk of that lately...
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 11 months ago
            you can't win a war without infantry unless you can overwhelmingly destroy every inch of ground, be it army or marines and it seems like the REMFs never go away except to their safe spots in the puzzle palace and don't mind counting the dead they cause as long as the report is on time and in the correct format. I swear they would send us out without any bullets for the rifles if they could get away with it.
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
              No, indeed, Infantry is a key, but one thing we used to do well, and forgot, was Combined Arms operations, where artillery, infantry, armor, and air were all coordinated and actually knew what to do. I have heard today it is hard to get all of them to show up on the same day in the same general area.
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              • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
                Not the troops fault either, it is the fact the support organizations cannot get their acts coordinated to make it work. The troops just go where they are told and when, then scratch their heads when no one is there.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 7 years, 11 months ago
    All the more reason to get out of NATO --- after all, we can't have other showing us up, right? We, not "they," are supposed to be the bullies.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 11 months ago
      Perhaps, but one unit an army does not make. If one compares the sizes of the armies of the various NATO groups and assuming even a 2:1 kill ratio (not unreasonable for defensive postures), they are still outnumbered by the Soviets if they chose to invade.

      And what one forgets in ground maneuvers is that the real battle begins in the sky. Without air superiority, the ground-pounders don't stand a chance. And that is an area where no NATO nation can come close to competing with the USAF.
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
        Combined Arms combat. However go look up the AF readiness rates and you will not be so sure. A lot of units are running at 50% now due to parts shortages and personnel shortages. A lot of people are hanging out somewhere's but in units....
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  • Posted by wiggys 7 years, 11 months ago
    What if our guys kill more of the enemy even though they didn't place in this competition what would you say about them?
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
      Good for them, testing the hypothesis is the problem though. Also the varied nature of the "enemy" is one of the real problems they face. A whole different set of skill are used in house to house terrorist hunting, versus large unit tank combat. Doesn't help to kill all the terrorists just to get run over by the Russians...
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 11 months ago
    Win some, lose some. I am almost done reading The Fourth Star about generals Petraeus, Abizaid, Casey, and Chiarelli. When Peter Chiarelli was a major in Germany, the teams under his command brought home the Canadian Trophy.

    As for NC National Guard, congratulations, also.

    However, wars are not won or lost so easily. A single shooting match is just an event.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
      Maybe, but to send "your best" (which you hope they are) and not place, puts them in a really bad light. Some of the EU units are very much superior to our mainstream. Leadership is one really weak area, political correctness is No.1 evaluation guide.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 11 months ago
        They competed against the best from other nations, as in the Olympics, or many other contests. Our tank teams are not chosen for their political correctness.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago
          Mike, there are a lot of "hidden" agendas, especially in the officer ranks, where you need the right breeding and positions. The politics are not always limited to political parties, although that is there, but there is a lot of backstabbing, "belong to the right group" mentality. Navy e8/E9 selection was almost all politics. I remember when I was told I had to go to the club to hang out with the SubPac Master Chief, if I ever hoped to get on the list of E8/9 or COBs. I declined to participate in what we called "butt snokeling". My reports say that today, a lot of E6-E9 (and I hear about mainly army) is based on a whole set of grades you get from your next up, such that they actually have board to go to where you can contest a review due to "incompatibility" with them.
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