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  • Posted by Mamaemma 7 years, 11 months ago
    Freedom, the article is proposing hypotheses and quoting statistics, but offering no proof. I agree that each person should decide for himself, but I would like that person to look at facts, not speculation.
    I am seeing a huge rise in cavities in young people as their diet includes an average of 6 sugared drinks a day. With reduced economic circumstances for middle class families, we are facing an epidemic of tooth loss, infections, and severe pain. I hope solid research will be done.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
      Agreed. Is there fire with the smoke? Why does it make sense to force feed everyone fluoride in the water? Where is the proof that there is a benefit to the entire population at all ages that exceeds any likely long-term side effects? Is age a factor? Is diet a factor? Are there economic factors that have nothing to do with dental health? I also think solid research should be done.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 11 months ago
    Fluoride was/is in NY public water the entire time I lived there. Countless millions people, myself included, drank city water and, to my knowledge, I'm cancer free AND haven't had a cavity in 20+ years. I mostly credit good genetics but the level of Fluoride in NY water seems certainly not to have hurt me.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
      We can give our own personal opinions (and experiences) about this but nothing will be resolved. You nor I can really say if the fluorude in the water has done any good or any harm based on our current health experience. Does the rest of the first world (non-US with a few exceptions like Australia) have any higher incidence of dental caries than the US even though they do not put fluoride in the water?
      Without controlled unbiased long-term scientifically based testing we won't know.
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  • Posted by rjajr 7 years, 11 months ago
    The problem begins with public water facilities; they should all be privatized and allowed to compete with each other, just like any other privately owned service. Just like any other private service, there would be water providers that offered water with fluoride, some without, and probably many other variants. Customer could then choose water providers that offer the kind of water they want, and the problem with water does not even come up.

    Anecdotally, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I treat dogs with cancer, and I cannot cure them if they drink tap water. I have tried to determine exactly why dogs don't respond when drinking tap water, but I have not been unable to do it, in part because it is expensive, and the easier solution is to just clean up the water. Flouride and chlorine are the two most suspect chemicals, but there are too many other substances in water that could also prevent a response, like hormones and anti-biotics, just to mention a few.

    Some patients switch to bottled water, and this seems to cause fewer problems, but plastic bottles contain plasticizers, like Biphenol A and S, which are hormone mimics that interfere with natural hormones, and promote hormone-sensitive cancers. And the softer the plastic bottles the more plasticizers they contain. Heat causes the plasticizers to leach out of the plastic, and you never know if your water sat in the sun or a hot warehouse somewhere before it was shipped to your local store.

    One in two dogs alive today will die of cancer. The incident of male human cancer is about the same, and it is not much better for women. So, the risk of cancer is extremely very high for everyone. Based on the statistics, and my own personal experience, I believe everyone should be doing all they can to eliminate any potential sources of carcinogens. And your water is a good place to start because it is so fundamental to health.


    Flouride is one of those many cases where we have some evidence, but no conclusive proof. But, based on the potential risks, and the fact that water purification systems are fairly inexpensive, I think it is prudent just to purchase one and just opt out of this controversy.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
      RO is relatively cheap compared to buying bottled water, but some may also need to add mineral supplements (or preferably change diets.) Thanks for the informed observations, rjajr. +1
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 11 months ago
    I believe it is still in Florida water. In any case, the water we drink is either filtered or boiled. A perfect example of how the socialistic state can never leave well-enough alone.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 11 months ago
    A study can be constructed to show oxygen causes cancer.

    Maybe so. Maybe not. People should decide for themselves, but not because of this risk.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
      I agree. Don't force feed fluoride to everyone via the public water system, "for your own good" or "for the greater good." If I think I need it based on unbiased evidence, I will add it to my supplement regime just as I add vitamins.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 11 months ago
        ... and you don't have to eat it. Mouth rinses work fine.
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        • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
          If the science proves a mouth rinse is a benefit. Could be a benefit to a segment of population and not to others. Any benefit to someone with a mouth full of dentures or implants? Any benefit beyond age of 12 (for example)? Not stating scientific facts here, just pointing out possibilities. When I have the facts I want the freedom to decide for myself based on my situation.
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          • Posted by Mamaemma 7 years, 11 months ago
            The problem, freedom, is that what you are talking about requires intelligence and effort. If you can just assume for a moment that fluoridated water prevents 80-90% of caries in permanent teeth FOR LIFE, and requires no effort or cost on the part of the person, now how about that? I'm not only speaking theoretically, by the way.
            For whatever it's worth, I am not in favor of forced ANYTHING, but the benefits have been amazing. The downside would have to be pretty significant. I still think it should be up to the individual. But just like most people today have forgotten how horrible polio and whooping cough and many other diseases were before vaccinations, they also have no idea of the devastating, painful, and crippling effects of rampant cavities in the population.
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            • Posted by Mamaemma 7 years, 11 months ago
              A significant number of people die of dental infections every year. Just sayin
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              • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
                No doubt. Dental maintenance is essential and awareness and action on this has made a big difference imo.
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                • Posted by Mamaemma 7 years, 11 months ago
                  My point is that awareness and action are decreasing at an alarming rate. I have an upscale practice, and what I am seeing is that the majority of middle class families do not bring their children in for routine care anymore. Also, dental care is becoming something that the average American can no longer afford, unless they have been diligent, and most have not been. Also, the average child's diet is atrocious, consisting largely of junk and sugary food. It's a preventable, terrible problem, and I am watching it develop. It makes me so sad because I know that with fluoride and sealants and good diet and care we can eliminate 99% of dental disease. I foresee us going back to the time when the great majority of Americans over 40 had no teeth.
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            • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
              So why are the stats for caries in countries that do not fluoridate not much higher than in the ones that fluoridate?
              https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...

              Is the benefit really a result of fluoridation?

              I had a long discussion (without benefit of any scientific study) with one of the people who passed the law to fluoridate water in NZ. He said he was sure he was right to do so at the time, but based upon history he was having second thoughts about the reason for the decline in decay.

              Maybe all the decay was sucked into Washington DC and Detroit. ;^)
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              • Posted by Mamaemma 7 years, 11 months ago
                Freedom, forgive me if I just don't want to take the time to do the research at this point. I hear you. I'm just asking you to consider that taking fluoride away will cause an epidemic in cavities. Just like stopping the smallpox vaccine will cause a smallpox epidemic. Cost vs. Benefit
                But remember I don't believe in forced medication any more than you do.
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                • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
                  I hear you, and I understand you have limits on your time, and that you are not in favor of forced treatment.
                  I don't see cause and effect either, for fluoride or against, just conflicting data that does not help me make a confident judgement. Having the government make the judgement is not acceptable to me. Letting irresponsible, biased government (or ill-informed voters or biased industry) dictate is the source of many problems, in health and other areas.
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              • Posted by Mamaemma 7 years, 11 months ago
                Freedom, the etiology of caries is complex and multifactorial. Remember that 2 stastics may be cause and effect, or they may be coincidental. Please don't jump to conclusions. I applaud your questioning of the facts and the search for reality. There is just so MUCH crap out there on the internet it is amazing, and especially about this subject.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 11 months ago
    While I understand the need to apply fluoride to children's teeth, I've never understood the need to put it in the drinking water so that everybody can drink it. From multiple directions it just doesn't make sense to me. Our muni system is one of the few that doesn't fluoridate, in spite of taking an SRF loan or grant from the Feds (where fluoridation is usually attached as a requirement to get the money).

    And, my teeth were damaged by fluoridosis (sp?) according to my last few dentists. My teeth were certainly damaged by this substance. (didn't grow up here)
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  • Posted by TomSwift 7 years, 11 months ago
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    • Posted by TomSwift 7 years, 11 months ago
      Article about how tooth decay increased when Calgary took out Fluoride from the drinking water.
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      • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
        Yet another conflicting study without sufficient explanation or any examination into side effects.

        The council voted correctly as Councilman Farrell explained:
        Ward 7 Coun. Druh Farrell was one of those in favour of removing it, arguing that helping families who couldn't afford fluoridated toothpaste would be a better idea than giving it to the entire population.
        ...
        "I would really question our right to put [fluoride] in, but … I don't question at all our right to remove it."

        Perhaps they didn't budget for the toothpaste or it's delivery method. Seems like dentists in certain areas would be an obvious solution for delivery and local charities could have provided the funding.
        Instead as usual the liberal writer wants to apply more government oppression as the solution.
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  • Posted by salta 7 years, 11 months ago
    Flouride has an effect on the thyroid gland, reducing its activity. In fact, it has been a recognized treatment for an over-active thyroid. The same reason it was also used in the water in Nazi camps, to make the prisoners more compliant.
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    • Posted by Mamaemma 7 years, 11 months ago
      "Only in doses greatly in excess of those used to reduce caries" quote from scientific study and review. You guys are killing me! Where is your scientific Objectivism?!?!
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      • Posted by salta 7 years, 11 months ago
        Who said the doses were the same?
        I have suffered hypothyriodism in the past, and it takes a long time to repair. If you were to ask me how much it is acceptable to impede the thyroids of a whole population, my answer would be zero.
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        • Posted by Mamaemma 7 years, 11 months ago
          Salta, one substance could be beneficial in low does and harmful in high doses. You are making a judgment with insufficient data. You are assuming that if a lot is bad, then a little is bad. That's a feeling, not a fact.
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          • Posted by kddr22 7 years, 11 months ago
            This is so vary true and the ability to tell good studies from pseudoscience that is being pushed as reality to say things cause this or that... In fact as it related to thyroid there is more evidence of the estrogen like effects of soy playing a larger role than flouride as well the high omega 6 value in people's diet that are pro inflamm...The variables are numerous and we need to truly objectively look at date not opinion
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            • Posted by salta 7 years, 11 months ago
              I agree kddr, that other things might also negatively effect thyroid. But the similarity of the chemistry of iodine and flourine means that the flourine atom replaces some iodine atoms in the metabolism. That results in less effective thyroid. However, in the teeth, the flourine does the same useful job as iodine. Most of the population is running with their iodine tank at minimum, so flourine helps with teeth. If it was tested on a population which were not so deficient in iodine, you could expect to see no benefit from flourine.
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              • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
                Perhaps iodine supplementation is a better solution for both (et al) problems. (My nutritionist recommends it when indicated.)
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                • Posted by salta 7 years, 11 months ago
                  I absolutely agree. For some people the main iodine source is from iodized table salt, and with doctors recommending low salt intake for years now, many people are deficient. Symptoms appear only after a long time.
                  Also, the official RDA is tiny for iodine, and might be sufficient for an already healthy person, but is nowhere near enough to rebuild from a deficiency. Populations living naturally on high seafood diet can easily consume many times the RDA with no negative effects.
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            • Posted by Mamaemma 7 years, 11 months ago
              Most people are completely unaware of the estrogen-mimicking effects of white fillings, which are also more toxic than amalgam fillings. But psuedoscience on the internet sure tells a different story!
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