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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Those are examples of "un-free" markets - or markets that are being manipulated by one side. The same can happen when the workers strike, except in that instance with a union, the action was agreed to by the employer (often - there are some contracts that distinctly prohibit striking, usually dealing with public safety).
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Regulations aren't necessary. At best they are created by the very people they are meant to regulate (and generally are merely barriers to other's entry) and at worst are crafted by morons with absolutely no idea of what they are regulating, and merely want to "protect ...." in which case they create inadvertent barriers which drive up the costs for everyone.

    In a free market, the market itself will self regulate.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Correct. And the workers went back home after the crop picking was finished. They didn't stick around on unemployment/welfare sucking up "benefits" that they didn't contribute to paying for in the first place.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    you mean the same farmers who were denied water due to the smelt? the dust bowl valley right now? really? "bumpkins you might see elsewhere" what the heck? I grew up in Iowa...not sure I appreciate the reference...
    Yes, Nancy Pelosi, the "farmer" has taken no grief for employing illegal migrant workers for her vineyards.
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  • Posted by Maphesdus 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Alright, you make a good point. Child labor laws should not apply to small family farms. I was really thinking more about large industrial farms owned by a corporation, anyway.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree LS. I don't see the Bundy argument as supporting Bundy so much as disapproval of the heavy handed government tactics. On the other hand the government subsidizes losing propositions like Solyndra at taxpayer expense, but changes regulations and fees to put ranchers out of business when the cows eat grass that costs the taxpayer nothing and regrows...
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  • Posted by $ jlc 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Between acne and hemorrhoids, we have encompassed both ends of the phenomenon. Thank you for the chuckle!

    Jan
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Greetings scojohnson.
    Isn't it already illegal to rape in California? What more regulation do you need. Report the scum and have them prosecuted.
    How is any of this the Farmers fault?
    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's not what he said and it has nothing to do with how he's being bullied by the BLM. I think you need to start your own post if you want to talk about "dirty old white men" and "weird knuckleheads" who "cry" about losing their cattle (and livelihood). Keep in mind..if they can go after Bundy, they can go after you too.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The discussion though is about whether Cesar Chavez was right to instigate the as he did... I would venture to say that yes, in light of the suffering of his people, if I were him I would have gone far further I'm sure.

    We hold up MLK as a leader and a hero, and he was, but the plight of the migrant laborers was worse I think and a very well-orchestrated attempt to conceal the conditions at every level politically.

    Farmers have enormous political power in California... these are not the bumpkins that you might see elsewhere... they have hundreds or thousands of acres have extremely high-producing, high-value cash crop.. Walnuts are up to $6.00 a pound... do you have any idea how many walnuts you get out of say a 400 acre grove?

    Let's take plums... I have a single plum tree, and I give away around 400 lbs of plums a year to friends that have horses to eat the stupid things. I give away hundreds of pounds of oranges from only a few trees, and I've been using RoundUp on the grape vines for a decade to try and kill them off.

    This isn't growing alfalfa...
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  • -1
    Posted by scojohnson 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No, its not endemic, rare in fact... Just saying that it does still exist even today... a lack of attention to it would probably let it flourish.

    Look at the knucklehead farmer in Las Vegas... Bundy... crying about losing his cattle because he didn't pay his grazing fees for 60 years, had some sympathy, until he opened up his pie-hole and started talking about how the blacks would be better off still being slaves to farmers than to be in prison and homeless and whatever else he was dreaming up.

    It's pretty amazing, but when you venture a little ways from civilization, it gets pretty weird out here pretty quickly.
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  • -3
    Posted by Maphesdus 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's a fascinating story, but it doesn't really explain what's wrong with a labor union. All you really did was recount a personal experience you had with a dishonest union rep. That might tell us about the personal and individual moral integrity of that particular union, but it tells us absolutely nothing about the broader functioning of labor unions in general.

    Unless you can somehow demonstrate that all unions always engage in that sort of behavior, and that employees are always worse off under a union, you don't have much of an argument going for you.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well... theoretically... until the parents fall sick or die, and the girls get sold into pre-pubescent prostitution... of course... there was plenty of a market for that too among the dirty old white guys that didn't have a lot of regard for the brown-skinned girls as human or not.

    The sins and history of California roots as the frontier are pretty unfathomable to people from the East Coast or midwest corn farmers or whatever.

    This isn't walking through corn fields in 80 degree Nebraska humidity and a comfortable rain in the afternoon.... this is being on your hands & knees in 115 to 120 degree heat in extremely dry conditions, meticulously trimming grape vines... making $130 a day for a married couple and the farmer's "market" charging $50 of that back to babysit the children too young to work in the fields yet...

    San Diego had the "rape groves" where 7, 8, or 9 year old girls were pimped out to a dozen 45 year old men a night to double-team or whatever at a time. Pretty much until they die of diseases..

    Still think there is no room for regulation?
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That depends on who is working them.
    If it is a family farm, then of course the children should join in the work of the farm.

    After much persuasion, 3 weeks before I turned twelve, I managed to convince my father to let me work with him; weekends, holidays and summers. My job was to hand him brick, and to act as 'gopher'. Another job was to clean his trowel at the end of the day. He paid me 25 cents an hour. And I was safer on the jobsite with him than I was in the playground at school.

    The days after a particularly tiring day, he would try sneaking out of the house without me, so I could rest, and then patiently deal with my ire at being almost left behind. For the first time, thinking back, remembering the expression on his face, I made him feel proud of me those mornings; and that memory is worth all the gold of Cathay to me. During those years, my most effective punishment wouldn't be spanking or "time out"... but to be threatened with not being allowed to go to work with him.

    One summer day we were working, just the two of us for some reason. I was up 3 scaffolds high, withering in the heat; he was below making more mortar, which I would land on the scaffolding as he pulled it up. I remember suddenly being about 2 feet shorter, and, seemingly instantly, there was my father atop the scaffold, pulling me up from the planks I'd fallen between. On that same job, after working in that summer heat all day, I had mentioned never having played "kick-the-can". He must have been exhausted, but at the of the day he dug out a coke can, and the two of us played kick-the-can together in the parking lot before going home.

    Years later, foolish laborers had disassembled scaffolding, leaving the walk plank hanging over. I stepped off them, and by twisting managed to fall between two cubes of concrete block rather than on them. Before I could get to my feet, before the men within arm's reach of me could react, my father who was 40 feet away down the scaffolding was the one who picked me up.

    Your "child labor laws" would have denied me some of the best and most meaningful memories of my life, at a time when I have little else.
    I thank you, no thank you, and again, I thank you.
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  • Posted by Maphesdus 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's a good point. Whether a particular law is good or not often depends on the society, and the same law which is good in one society may be bad in another.

    I guess what this shows is that most regulation should be enacted by local governments, because only they will be able to accurately asses the needs of their own community.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Interesting analogy. But, unlike a zit, you can't just pop a union and let it heal and disappear. They never go away.

    Perhaps a better analogy would be that unions are like hemorrhoids (in many more ways than one). They hang around assholes, are irritating as all hell, you have to pay to reduce their irritation which is only temporary and then they become irritating again, and most people don't want to admit that they are/have one.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not entirely accurate... Many industries require a lot of capital to operate safely... others don't, in fact the government makes those easy with small-biz set asides for government professional services contracts for example. Would you want the local mom & pop shop with $25k in capital to open a coal mine on the property behind your house and start drilling with whatever crap-equipment they can buy for $150? Do you think that petro or coal extraction for that matter would be remotely-safe without some regulation? Society has a vested interest in safe operation of industry, because when workers are hurt, we end up supporting them through disability / social security / etc.
    life and liberty are risky businesses. communities are free to make their own rules. I abhor HOAs but they can be effective-also evil.
    I gave my philosophical answer to child labor elsewhere in the thread.
    I'm sorry you had that encounter. There are dumb jerks everywhere, in every community, in every little hideaway . Hardly endemic of everyone.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    agreed.
    That's interesting about the software engineer suit. I hate cronyism in all of its forms. But I also hate socialism. Everyone seeks to manipulate the demand curve. The question is are you colluding. and collusion is illegal in the US. Bringing attention to the workers' plight is fine, beating up migrant workers at the border is immoral. Not providing basic accomodations at the job site is immoral in my opinion. But the shanty towns? I'm not sure about that. In Colorado springs, after the financial crisis, hobo towns sprung up overnight. The city dispersed the tents and communities as an eyesore. But many were families who needed a month or two of no rent to get back on their feet. It's easy to say -people shouldn't live like this-many people felt safer in those "communities" than going to the homeless shelter.
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