Galt's Gulch

Bizarre fourth state of water discovered

Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 12 months ago to Science
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I read this 3x and still don't fully understand it.

JBrenner?
SOURCE URL: http://www.gizmag.com/fourth-state-of-water/42999/

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  • Posted by InfamousEric 7 years, 12 months ago
    After reading this I pictured the following.

    Imagine a tube that is hexagonal in shape.

    Now because the tube is at the molecular level, it's not really solid, it's more like a scaffolding, because the molecules are not solid objects, they are similar to microscopic solar systems.

    Now imagine the hydrogen atom of the water molecule, flattened out like a pancake, kind of seeping through the open areas of scaffolding of the hexagonal tube. So much so, it is detected on the inside & outside of the tube.

    I have no idea if this vision is correct, but it seems logical.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 12 months ago
      To begin with, there is no "the hydrogen atom of the water molecule". You can have "a hydrogen atom of a water molecule" or you can have "the hydrogen atoms of a water molecule". There is no way to measure the positions of the atoms of the water molecule in the cage at an instant of time, thus the results are an averaging over the water molecule over time. So I would suspect that the electron densities of the atoms in the cage would appear spread about in any duration of time and are interpreted to have some kind of tunneling ability. Remember quantum mechanics is a probabilistic science and not an experimental science as is quantum physics as that which the experimenters were doing but interpreting the results by quantum mechanics and all its hyperbole and spookiness.
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 12 months ago
      Exactly...at the quantum level a past or future substance is comprised of units of energy that come together under the force of gravity or an electrical attraction to form what we see as a gas, a solid or a liquid...this process is how matter is created. Water is amazing stuff!

      I saw this process as kinda like condensation...like water in a glass that condenses on the outside of the glass at the same time. That might serve as a metaphorical concept.

      I have always wondered: If we could shrink a Hubble like telescope down to a size proportionate of an electron and look out into that space...would we not see things much like what we see in outer space. There is no reason not to think that these patterns are repeated on macro and micro levels. As above, so below.
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    • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 12 months ago
      Yes, thats kind of how I made it out to be as well. Still, "seeping" is more of descriptive term for a liquid or gas. And if what we're both thinking is accurate how does that define a new state of matter since we're only seeing how far molecules can be manipulated.

      Odd stuff.
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      • Posted by InfamousEric 7 years, 12 months ago
        Quantum Physics is something which I have little concept of, but perhaps the "new state of matter" is the intermingling of the molecules, that remain separate, as opposed to bonding.

        Again I go back to solar systems, like 2 systems flowing through each other without becoming one.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 7 years, 12 months ago
    One way to think about this is to consider that what we call "classical reality" is a kind of illusion. The behavior of very large numbers of particles becomes highly predictable and deterministic even though at the molecular and atomic level they are random and chaotic. We think in terms of particles and waves being separate kinds of things and at the macroscopic level of conventional experience this is a legitimate perspective. However, as things get very small this view looses its utility. Just as a microscope reveals a whole new view of reality study of matter at the molecular and atomic scale shows us that "classical" concepts are no longer valid. Even such fundamental things as cause and effect and spatial integrity become increasingly fuzzy. It may be that the quantum world is the underlying reality and that the "real world" of ordinary experience is an illusion that results from the statistical behavior of very large collections of random events.
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    • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 12 months ago
      That is a really good layman's explanation. I've been reading up on the wonderful wacky world of quantum physics for many years, and it is still difficult to wrap my mind around the underlying and seemingly chaotic aspect of of the quantum world. It still amazes me how Einstein came to his realizations. It must have been like jumping into cold deep water while not knowing how to swim.
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      • Posted by ProfChuck 7 years, 12 months ago
        I had the great privelidge of meeting Einstein a few years before his death. I was an undergrad student at the time and was part of a group he was trying to convince to pick up the search for a unified field theory. I think Einstein's greatest strength was his ability to recognize and ask the critical questions. You are correct. This ability can lead you into cold deep water and is so compelling that you forget that you don't know how to swim. Einstein sought a unified field theory but an even more critical unification is on the horizon, the unification of classical and quantum physics. Recognition that what we perceive as the "real world" is just an illusion resulting from the underlying reality of the quantum world may be a step in that direction.
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        • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 12 months ago
          Yes, that is true. However, once we swim to the shore, we still must deal with the "real world" and obey it's rules in order to survive.
          What a great experience it must have been to meet the foremost exponent of the thought experiment. I try to keep up with the latest quantum theories. Some of them stretch credulity somewhat, but then, who knows? A former friend (he assumed room temperature) once showed me an article where it compared two articles. One "proved" the dire consequences of traveling faster than a mile a minute. The next told of the dire consequences of traveling faster than the speed of sound. So, I have concluded that no matter how far out a theory seems, I'll wait and see what develops. The universe in all its forms is still a magnificent wonder.
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          • Posted by ProfChuck 7 years, 12 months ago
            Just like the work of Faraday and Maxwell led to the unification of electricity and magnetism the unification of gravity with the other forces will revolutionize our mastery of the physical world. I suspect that a unification of classical and quantum physics is more likely to take the form of a reconciliation where a better understanding of the quantum world will tell us more about how and why the classical world behaves the way it does. We do know this, Newton and Einstein were sufficiently correct that their models of the behavior of reality are good enough that we can navigate a spacecraft from one planet to another and we can construct nuclear reactors that work. The thought experiment is a powerful tool. It rarely provides solutions but it frequently provide insight as to what are the important questions. Einstein's elevator and spaceship thought experiments led to general relativity.
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            • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 12 months ago
              Fascinating.
              I could discuss this at length and ask many questions, but I don't think this is the forum for that, and I wouldn't want to overly pester you. My very close cousin is married to a physics prof. who wrote a book on this very subject, but I've already bugged him to the point where he only will accept humor or family stuff from me.
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  • Posted by Bethesda-gal 7 years, 12 months ago
    Is it sort of like how ghosts are depicted in movies passing through a wall ? (if ghosts were real, of course) Sort of oozing through other things on a molecular level but not becoming part of the other things ? That's how I read it. Cool !
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  • Posted by $ jrpm 7 years, 12 months ago
    As I understand it, it is like economics: there is a micro version that applies to individuals and a macro version that applies to societies. Quantum physics is microphysics. Classical physics is macrophysics.

    And of course, everyone fully understands economics.

    The water in this article is in the micro state and because of the pressure (and maybe the catalyst) cannot transition to the macro environment.

    Think of it as water with PTSD. Like a warrior that cannot transition to peace, a microphysical that can't transition to macro.
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