What If We Picked On Somebody Our Own Size?

Posted by straightlinelogic 11 years, 9 months ago to Government
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From the latest on straightlinelogic, "What If We Picked On Somebody Our Own Size?" For the full commentary, click the link above.

Russia and China don’t have much truck with the indispensable nation’s global designs. They are happy to let us throw away dollars and lives in Islamic snake pits, but they are the big kids on their own blocks and don’t cotton to an interloper telling them what to do. Maps and history are anathema to most Americans, including its politicians, but if they looked at the former or knew any of the latter, they might realize that both nations are geographically vulnerable to invasion and have been invaded countless times throughout their long histories. Russia and China have real armies, navies, air forces, and nuclear arsenals: their citizens do not have to blow themselves up to get the world’s attention. They are also proficient in the newer forms—cyberwar, espionage, sabotage, intelligence, and subversion—of mankind’s oldest sport, and are challenging us to pick on somebody our own size.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 11 years, 9 months ago
    There is confusion that what makes the USA strong is its military. But the US military is strong because the US traditionally followed freedom oriented policies. Winning a war is not just about destroying the other sides military, it is also about winning the philosophical battle, which we are not equipped to do right now.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 9 months ago
      How can we win the philosophical battle, when we don't believe in our own righteousness?

      "Well," said Arakal, "it does count. His reasoning has become confused, but the general idea is right."

      Brusilov looked doubtful.

      Arakal said, "Ideology *counts*. The only catch is, almost always when ideology counts, *it does the counting with a sword*."
      - from "Ideological Defeat"
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 11 years, 9 months ago
    From the article: "A related and not inconsequential consideration: world war would most likely turn the US surveillance state into a police state."

    I kinda think we're already there.
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  • Posted by stadler178 11 years, 9 months ago
    That is not a fight that the U.S. could win, not without unleashing madness upon the world. I mean, more madness than usual. I mean, if we can't handle Afghanistan or Iraq, then a war against another major power is suicide.

    My hope is that we don't pick on anybody who hasn't picked on us.
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    • Posted by Rex_Little 11 years, 9 months ago
      Not to nitpick or anything, but we CAN and did handle Afghanistan and Iraq, in the sense of defeating their armed forces and removing their leaders from power. What we can't do is make them all peaceful and America-loving.

      Of course, getting into it with Russia or China would be a whole different ballgame.
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      • Posted by stadler178 11 years, 9 months ago
        Well, yes, definitely in that sense, we could handle just about anyone--although Russia AND China? Not at the same time. But the price would be too high, is all. I'm just not sure what the long-term consequences would be.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 9 months ago
        Russia and China would not be particularly difficult, if we could first kill all our domestic enemies that would hamstring our war efforts; if we then killed all our domestic opportunists, that would make us and our military dependent upon foreign nations for war materiel.

        Once we have secure supply sources, and once we can re-establish a military that will use its power to crush our enemies, a military that will "ride in blood to Samarakand"... then we could defeat them handily.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 9 months ago
      WE COULD HAVE HANDLED IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, blast it!

      What frustrated our efforts there was the same thing that "lost" the Vietnam war; traitors in our midst who will not let us FIGHT the war.

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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 9 months ago
    The only productive way to "pick on someone our own size" would be to finally pay off our debt.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 11 years, 9 months ago
      Very true. One of the reasons we had such international clout after WWII was that we had the only remaining functioning industrial and economic base in the world (except Switzerland). Combine that with everything we had just sacrificed to free the world and we also had tremendous moral clout.

      Unfortunately, that has been a long time ago and several generations in the past, and the subsequent generations have been coddled into thinking that we are superior because we are America - not because of all the hard work and sacrifice that underlay it! They have ignored that the path to prosperity lies in the time value of money - not in debt - and have mortgaged the future economy for the present one.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 9 months ago
      Or renege on it.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 9 months ago
        By ignoring (and eventually reneging) our debt, Amepobre will get what it deserves. Ayn Rand's comments via Francisco d'Anconia's money speech apply particularly well here. Amepobre is counting on a ridiculously low interest rate on its debt in perpetuity. Sooner or later the creditors will move their financial assets toward more profitable ventures (or shrug entirely). When that happens, Amepobre will collapse like a house of cards.
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  • Posted by Stormi 11 years, 9 months ago
    We are in no position to attack anyone. If we win, we have to send them aid to rebuild, but we have no money!
    Actually, our populace is now too dumbed down to win anything, or understand what we are doing. While Obama downsizes our military, especially the ships, China is expanding her sea power. Her sailors and leaders have studied Mahan, and understand the importance of sea power, as JFK once did. Our leaders are too busy being at war with our own citizens, to bother themselves anywhere that is not politically advantages to them. We have nothing but empty words to offer any nations, until we have cleaned up our own country.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 11 years, 9 months ago
    We have the power to destroy Russia and badly hurt China. It is economic power. The good thing is no one needs to visit Arlington as a result. First we must and are able to make ourselves independent of foreign energy. This is very possible if we cut off the reins provided by environmentalist wackos and their allies in Washington. Next we cut off all economic ties to both nations. Yes, this will cost us a lot of suffering economically, but much more so to them. The Russian economy is so fragile that it will cause it to collapse, and China's to teeter on the brink. We pay a big price also, but not nearly as much in blood and treasure as a fighting war would cost. It might cause R & C to look at their nuclear capability, but they are not as insane as the Islamists who are fueled by their mystical beliefs -- or at least the minions are. As to the Middle East Jihadists, let's stop pussy-footing around them and as the Brits say, "Call a spade a bloody shovel." We are already at war with them and it's about time we acted like it.
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  • Posted by wiggys 11 years, 9 months ago
    what if we just walked away from all of the warfare?
    ain't gonna happen.
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    • Posted by RonC 11 years, 9 months ago
      The Ron Paul doctrine, IMHO, can only work if we are energy independent. On one end of the continuum we decide to use solar and wind and cast aside industrial growth and comfort. This is easy because politically we have already decided, many years ago, to limit the use of our own resources. So, on cloudy days we skip the AS forum and email as a reasonable accommodation for our energy and foreign policy. On the other end of the horizon, we could make the political decision to use our own resources to make energy and products the rest of the world would love to buy. In either case, we don't need the Saudi family to help us (for a price), we don't need to fear the cartel, and so we leave those people alone. Maybe peace doesn't break out as Mr. Paul has suggested, but at least they would be fighting among themselves.

      Chances are we would be somewhere in the middle of the continuum, with a blend of ideas and outcomes. If it worked, if we had energy to grow at a cost that was efficient. As a result of that we became a world player in both services and manufacturing. The next step would bring more control of the world's financial system to us we would be where most of the transactions occured. If that all happened, how long before other powers would consider taking what we have created? How long before they resented our dominance? At that point we have traveled full circle. The world really does respond to greed and need.

      Personally, I'd like to see our Nation leave OPEC and the Middle East oil merchants in the rear view mirror. I think the results will not be an AS Utopia. Here's why! We could build the perfect system. Over time people begin to take that system for granted. Then a politician jumps up with a big mouth and a half baked "new idea". The person defending the status quo will always have a difficult time. The attraction for something new is greater than loyalty to what is proven good. In the imagination, results don't matter. Imagination is where politicians sell their wares. I am still waiting for Bill Clinton to send me a check for my daughter's college tuition. I can still clearly remember him saying all American kids would have a free college education under his administration. Didn't happen, but it changed a few votes. If results don't matter, any idea is valid.
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      • Posted by Wanderer 11 years, 9 months ago
        Ron;

        I don't know Ron Paul's doctrine, so I've no opinion on that part of your statement but, I believe the "energy independence" people seek won't solve many, if any of our problems. Sure, we import hydrocarbons, but we import many essential raw materials; aluminum, rare earth elements, titanium; and many essential manufactured products (iPhones). Energy independence isn't absolute independence and, many of the materials we import come from China and Russia and other bad actors on the world scene. We are entangled with the rest of the world, and will remain so. I think it best we become better internationalists.
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        • Posted by RonC 11 years, 9 months ago
          Well said. That was the point I was trying to make. Unless a nation could be completely independent they must trade. If they are completely independent that becomes isolationism. In that regard we would have no say in world affairs. the extreme opposite of that would be sticking our nose in and insisting on our way at every juncture. That's not workable either. The Ron Paul doctrine (my name for it) is to stop being the world's police man, pull back troops on foreign soil, close the 150+ bases we have around the world, mind our own business and maybe people wouldn't hate us. I don't believe that either. If we stop leading on American interests we lose.

          I believe people all over the world move to their own set of incentives. Putin wants to put the empire back together. Crimea offers sea port access and other strategic benefits. Obama projects a kinder gentler America. Smaller military, downsized budget and capability. What other outcome could there be? Same for Eastern Ukraine. Maybe same for all the eastern european and former soviet countries. If we don't move on Crimea, when do we move? If we don't move on Ukraine, when do we move. If we don't move on Benghazi, I know it's a different arena, but the indecision is still there. So, in many ways we have the Paul doctrine of smaller and less effective military. Instead of the desired effect, we get a power vacuum and Russia, China, Iran, Syria, and all the neighbors are looking for their piece of the pie. American interests are cast off because we are not really at the table and the powers that be in the region are pursuing their interests ahead of ours.
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          • Posted by Notperfect 11 years, 9 months ago
            When Ron Paul was running for the highest office here in the good ole U.S.A. I do not think he was just wanting to pull out of every country we are in just to become an isolationist. I thought his ideas to pull out would help our country on the spending side of our debt. I understood him to believe we could trade with anyone without ruling over their citizens. In one debate about our defense the moderator asked all of the participants what they would do in the event someone would attack the U.S.A. and they all had their ideas about getting together with their Generals and Joint Chiefs on what they would do. Ron Paul said that he would not stand for someone else coming up with an idea when if elected He was the Commander -n-Chief. Is that not what his one legal job would be as stated in the Constitution. His ideas would rule over any Senator, House Rep. or any entity that might want to start something without consulting the true Commander-n-Chief. Maybe I am wrong, but I took the idea of removing our boys from all over the world and shutting down over 800 bases as resulting in getting our house in order and streamlining the best Military in the world. We have Special forces when given the chance can knock out any opposing enemy at anytime. This to me was what Ron Paul meant. Put his house back in order like you and I have to stick to a budget then use no more than necessary to elevate our Special Services when needed and then create trade with the countries that need our products and those products we need. Foreign Aid has to stop. We have more problems here, but it seems we go in somewhere and blow this place up then we go back in and fix it. That would be like me building my house and then pour gas on it and light it up. After spending time in prison for arson will those who lent me the monies dare lend me it again? I think not. That to me is what Ron Paul meant. Not arguing just asking for opinions.
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            • Posted by RonC 11 years, 9 months ago
              I believe that is the correct argument for the Paul Doctrine. What happens when Putin decides to help Poland?... or pick any combination. IMHO a withdrawing USA creates a power vacuum. Hoping for things to work out with the host we are leaving, say South Korea, would be fool hearty. So, now we have to look at each commitment by degree. Soon all our allies would know we could not be counted on. Kind of like the Obama foreign policy with different press coverage.

              Another aspect is that big players here and abroad have made plans based on the rules of the game as we now know them. Change the rules and huge fortunes are in the swing. Some say JFK had a target on his back by calling down the military on the Bay of Pigs and planning to cycle out of Viet Nam. There were, and always will be, fortunes to be made in wartime.

              I don't know if the world is just a messy place or if we have made a mess of it. I know there are no easy solutions.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 9 months ago
                A withdrawing USA creates a power vacuum, but that really is the only smart choice we have. We had both the economic success and the moral authority (by having been liberators rather than conquerors) after the first two World Wars. Since then, America (or as I now call it, Amepoble - poor instead of rica for rich) has involved itself in situations in which it really had nothing to gain (although it certainly could be argued that America had something to lose). Now that America's wealth has diminished considerably, it no longer has as much to protect, so why should it have as big a military?
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                • Posted by RonC 11 years, 9 months ago
                  I have a hard time putting into words what I'm looking for in a leader. We shouldn't go to war because someone tried to kill Dad (G. W. Bush). We shouldn't go to war against, let's say Afghanistan, because Al Qaeda flew stolen airplanes into the WTC and they happen to have a few (by world standards) terrorists. At the same time we should find a way to track down and facilitate a just ending for those that have acted against us. Nor can we have hard and fast rules that bad actors around the world skirt just to prove we are too soft or lazy or, you pick the adjective, to responde.

                  We need leadership, whether from one man or a mind alliance, that takes a decided American view of our policies. Why dance and hold hands with the Russians if we are going to capitulate or be out maneuvered in favor of the decidedly Russian perpsective. Whomever we face in foreign affairs, obviously they are looking at it from their best interests. To approach any negotiation with a what's best for the world or a how will the rest of the world look at us approach puts us a step or two behind, and we never catch up.

                  There is no reason to pester the Sheikhs at OPEC if we didn't need their oil. If we were energy independent, whether green energy or brown, then world oil reserves are not as "strategic" as they once were. One step further, produce enough energy to reduce the spot price to below break even point for OPEC members. Then each time they pump a barrel they lose $$.

                  I hear the whine of the ecology folks, "that would take ten years, we need an answer today!" Time is always there. If we had started expanding all US energy when Jimmy Carter created the energy commission, well we would have been done 20 years ago. Using that same excuse today only underscores how weak and indecisive our policy on energy has been.

                  I judge people by results. That makes politics difficult for me because I know what I like to hear. When Palin said, "to take the oath of office with the heart of a servant..." that's music to me. We hired them, they work for us, they should act like a servant. But how many politicians live up to their rhetoric? I know of none.

                  Ideally, I would like to roll the constitution back about 110 years and replay some of the changes that have resulted in power being shift away from state and local control to the Federal Government. The 17th amendment in particular took the States veto power away. Prior to the 17th amendment, Senators were appointed by and answered to the legislature of their home state. They were sent expressly to look our for "States Rights". The 17th made them electable by the popular vote. In the old days, Harry Reid could be fired by the State of Nevada for refusing to allow a bill to the floor, because Senators answered to their state, and the States had expectations. Today, all Reid has to do is win on election day, and there are a lot of ways to do that. If you have not read it, Mark Levin's book "The Liberty Amendments" discusses a lot of changes that have been made in the Constitution and his strategy for a State initiated Constitutional Convention.
                  As an AS reader, I recall one of the projects the leaders of the gulch were busying themselves with was a re-write of the Constitution, as I recall to make it impossible to mooch. Or maybe I dreamed that last part.
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 9 months ago
                  We need a military to ensure that other nations don't think they can push us around. Of course, it helps if there isn't a push over in the WH.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 9 months ago
                    The American military could be more than effective enough at 1/10 of its current size. Special Forces that are able to perform on land, sea, and air are more than enough as a big stick.
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                • Posted by Notperfect 11 years, 9 months ago
                  We do not need one. I am in accord with both of you Ron and jb. Streamline will protect us, but that would be exact and those who only want chaos tend to lean in a different direction.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 9 months ago
    For those of us (not me, yet ...) trying to hasten the end of America rather than trying to salvage it, this might be an effective strategy to get to that end.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 9 months ago
    Yes!
    "If Obama had forthrightly stated when he took office what he apparently believes—that the time had come for a reexamination of our role in the world—and then reoriented our defense and intelligence policies towards actual defense against actual threats to the US proper, he would go down in history as a good president. If he had then taken the trillions saved, reduced the debt and cut taxes, and reigned in the regulatory monster, he would go down in history as a great president. Instead, he’ll go down in history as the forty-fourth president. However, future Republicans presidents will do no better, and may do far worse, if they don’t disavow the delusion current hopefuls must fervently avow."
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    • Posted by RonC 11 years, 9 months ago
      If Obama is lucky he will go down as the 44th President. From my point of view sometimes his luck runs thin. This month it is the VA. The analysis on FOX business this morning was that you have an entrenched bureaucracy making decisions of the availability of care for a population of sicker than average people (veterans). That group of decision makers are not from a medical background. Rather they are professional bureaucrats climbing "their" ladder of success by telling both medical staff and clients what they may do. You may blow that off by saying it's the VA and they always have problems. I will argue it is a complete and refined model of ObamaCare. Beyond the poor roll out. Beyond the politics of death panels. After the 90,000,000 people that now enjoy employer provided benefits are bumped into the next phase. Then the system will face the same kind of overload as the VA.

      Vets can't see any Doctor, let alone their doctor. Vets can't get prescriptions because it require a Doctor visit, and there is a "two sets of books" waiting list to get an appointment. It has spread to 14 major cities now and people have certifiably died because of the poor execution of the VA's system. At this time, the man who will be remembered as 44 is doing what he does best. he is dithering.

      You may wonder what I think he should do. In his whole career I have one piece of advice. MAKE A DECISION! At best you will get things moving. At worst, you might make the wrong decision. If by chance it is wrong, it is still only a decision. If it's wrong, make another decision. Dithering allows the circumstances to change and the decision to make itself. Sometimes that's a poor result. To me, the core difference between an executive and a committeeman or Senator is making a decision rather than fielding a fact finding committee or debating. The decision is what separates the leader from the rest. His team has spun that every way imaginable with constructs like "leading from behind". In the world of business leading from behind is...following.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 9 months ago
        "If Obama is lucky he will go down as the 44th President"

        If the country is lucky, he'll go down as an ineligible occupant of the White House, whose every act is therefore null and void.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 9 months ago
    “The Romans never allowed a trouble spot to remain simply to avoid going to war over it, because they knew that wars don't just go away, they are only postponed to someone else's advantage. Therefore, they made war with Philip and Antiochus in Greece, in order not to have to fight them in Italy... They never went by that saying which you constantly hear from the wiseacres of our day, that time heals all things. They trusted rather their own character and prudence— knowing perfectly well that time contains the seeds of all things, good as well as bad.”
    ― Niccolò Machiavelli
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 9 months ago
    " their citizens do not have to blow themselves up to get the world’s attention."

    Neither do Islamic scum.

    We aren't "picking on" anyone. We are fighting our enemies. We may be doing so, badly, but nevertheless... sometimes the underdog deserves to be the underdog.
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