Will Solar Panels Survive an EMP? - Backdoor Survival

Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 10 years, 2 months ago to Technology
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Interesting.

The book mentioned, One Second After, is a must read in my opinion. It will scare the pants off you too.


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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Most EMP scenarios are created by a nuclear warhead. DrZ's first comment was about how nuclear weapons create an EMP. Perhaps you should learn to read - and learn a little more about EMPs.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    2. Most electronic circuits are grounded even if they are disconnected from the power source, which means they act like antennas. This is in fact how an EMP induces currents in power lines. This means you have transient current flow and induced voltages, because any grounded wire can act as an antenna. Remember antenna theory and transmission lines. As a result, these induced voltages can definitely effect the electronics. <br /><br />3. True, but if you want to talk about the practical side, any EMP that is close enough to take out the electronics in your solar panel (not connected to the grid) would mean that you would likely need to be in a shelter to survive. The most likely way an EMP will take out your solar panel is for it to be connected to the electrical grid and the voltage spike to come from the power lines.
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If you were a looter-type personality, had limited resources, and knew that in one direction there were houses belonging to people more well off than you, and in another a desolate wilderness, woods, or forest, with nothing but logging roads, dark forests, and maybe the occasional hunting cabin every few miles, in an area known for conservative values, survival instincts, and no predisposition to fear firearms, ... where would you rather go loot? <br /><br />By the time the trouble came out as far as you on a gamble they *might find something* they would be weakened by lack of food, possibly by being on foot for some hundred plusmile trek to the unknown, if something closer to their homes didn't pick them off first. And then they'd be going into a land of strangers... strangers wary of those people coming out from the cities... <br /><br />I could be wrong, but then again, knowing that as someone has less (or no) food and water, they will get weaker the further they travel. It's why the Bug Out bag is generally not a good idea - tho people can last a little while on this "enforced campout", not many people really *can* live off the land, out of a pack, and stay healthy and retain their body mass and strength. It's why "bugging in" is usually a better option. <br />
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Once again you fail the "read and comprehend" test. <br /><br />But this time it's probably intentional. <br /><br />When I demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about, you change the subject! There's no "ionizing radiation" in an EMP any more than there's ionizing radiation in a NMR scanner. <br /><br />I take back what I said about you maybe having a better graph of physics than you are displaying. What I want to know is who you bribed for your degree? (Or does U Texas just have a "no fail" policy in their physics department?)
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Bam, your knowledge of physics is lacking. A semiconductor device can not only be affected by the induced voltage and current, but the ionizing radiation can destroy the device without any connected conductors.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is definitely ionizing radiation in an Nuclear EMP. The highest frequencies are present in Nuclear EMP (NEMP) bursts. These continue up into the optical and ionizing ranges. <br />
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I guess the question comes down to whether the damage done to a semiconductor is a result of current flow or the application of a voltage with no current flow. <br /><br />Picture a voltage source connected to a diode with one voltage source lead and one diode lead disconnected. Now vary that voltage. The voltage source represents the voltage from an EMP into an OPEN circuit, you're saying the diode would be damaged (because of the voltage), I'm saying it would not (because there's no current flow). <br /><br />In fact, if you think about it, all the the connecting wires between the individual cells would be voltage sources separated by diodes. If there's NO CIRCUIT, all of these voltages represent parts of a zero-current OPEN circuit. Does voltage alone damage the semiconductors? I don't think so. You apparently do. <br /><br />Now once you connect the solar panel for use, then it forms a circuit and current can flow. At that point it becomes susceptible to damage. The next question is, how susceptible. As I said, I don't know much about antennae, but EMP is mostly long-wave EMR, and I would think that the most vulnerable "antenna" would be the connection from the solar panel to whatever it's driving. If you use shielded cable, and shield the load, then you get back to relatively short wavelengths - the 6" of wire between cells.
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Who said anything about nuclear? The subject under discussion is the effect of EMP. <br /><br />Clearly a nuclear detonation produces ionizing radiation, and that ionizing radiation can produce an EMP - but the EMP itself does not damage semiconductor material outside of a circuit and the presence of an EMP does not imply a nuclear detonation. <br /><br />Really, Dale. Work on that "read and comprehend" thing. (Your logic needs work too.) I hope for your sake that none of your potential clients are witnessing this breakdown in your reasoning skills. Could make for a lean Summer.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Bambi will be happy to hear you think he's a girl. Bambi would like to repeal women's right to vote.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    See These videos are instructive for showing what will happen to metal if struck by an EMP <br />Aluminum foil in Microwave <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcUsutyTM" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcUsutyTM...</a>... <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx7IZ4WBd" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx7IZ4WBd...</a>... <br />Read more at <a href="http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/591df78/will-solar-panels-survive-an-emp-backdoor-survival~q4vdm6b2xnef3p7y73xgwccyl4#5ZRAQwCpei0gKPUE.99" rel="nofollow">http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/59...</a>
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Bam, there were no errors. I was not trying to give a complete lecture to people who do not understand EM theory. People who understand EM, know that any wire can act as an antenna, especially for an EM pulse. Your right, the array does not need to be grounded (however see articles on crystal radio sets) , but that was never my point, it was to help you understand there could be induced current flow and voltages. <br /><br />Ionizing radiation still occurs in Nuclear EMP, which is the only kind of EMP worth worrying about with respect to solar panels. But I believe you are right that the distance of this EM radiation is less than other waves. This would be consistent with the general propagation of EM waves, where longer wavelengths are able to deffract (and reflect) around objects more easily than shorter wavelengths. <br /><br />The situation is clearly very fact specific. DrZ is the only one on here who has probably studied the specific circumstances. I read a book on the effects of Nuclear Weapons and the distance at which different effects occurred, but nothing about EMP. Near the blast zone, it didn't matter what you did, but at farther distances small things like the terrain could make all the difference between you and your neighbors. I am not a survivalist expert either. My belief, not fact, is that if your solar panel is destroyed by an EMP you probably are going to have much bigger problems. That said my reading led me to believe that Churchill and others have overstated the damage of Nukes, which maybe kept countries from using them. Certainly, Carl Sagan's nuclear winter made about as much sense as AGW (Global Warming). Calculating likely risks, I think the march of socialism is a much bigger concern than EMPs. <br /><br />Can we put this to bed now?
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    With regard to antennae, you're right. I have limited knowledge. But you were the one that came up with the "grounded" solar array. How is an solar panel in a box under your bed "grounded"? Oh, don't bother. You never even try to answer the challenges to your errors. You just wave your (phony?) degrees around and claim I don't know what I'm saying. But the truth is, you rarely make a technical contribution and despite the fact that you are often wrong, you never address it. <br /><br />So now it's not ionizing radiation. Instead, it's kilowatt per square foot EM fields? <br /><br />Wouldn't that mean that the A-bomb you're fabricated would have to be on your block? (/sarcasm). <br /><br />
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Bambi you are RUDE and IGNORANT. You know nothing about electromagnetics and antennas. An EMP pulse is a large impulse of electric and magnetic energy. Kirkoff’s law states that the electric field E in a ‘perfect’ conductor is always zero, 0. When an impulse of electric energy impinges on a ‘perfect’ conductor the electrons immediately rearrange (small current) themselves to cancel out the field and this results in a reflected wave. But real conductors such as copper and aluminum are not perfect conductors as a result, the electrons do not immediately rearrange themselves and this results in the build up off charges (i.e., voltage difference for Bambi). To see this in action take a look at the YouTube videos below. <br /><br />Bambi here is some reading for you so you can learn something about antennas and electromagnetics. <br />Here is a paper on Antenna theory that is relevant. <a href="http://wirelessu.org/uploads/units/2008/08/12/39/5Anten_theor_basics.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://wirelessu.org/uploads/units/2008/...</a>. Pay particular attention to Slides 4, 5 and 21. <br /><br />This paper explains why charge builds up at boundary interfaces, including between metal and air. <a href="http://www.antenna-theory.com/tutorial/electromagnetics/electric-field-boundary-conditions.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.antenna-theory.com/tutorial/e...</a><br /><br /><br /><br />These videos are instructive for showing what will happen to metal if struck by an EMP <br />Aluminum foil in Microwave <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcUsutyTMOk" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcUsutyTM...</a><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx7IZ4WBdy4" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx7IZ4WBd...</a><br />Bambi, note that the aluminum is not connected to anything – IT IS AN OPEN CIRCUIT, but those sparks are the result voltage differences. NOW QUIT PROVING YOUR IGNORANCE. <br /><br /><br />This video gives you a good idea of how an EMP will affect semiconductor circuits. <br />Here is a DVD in a microwave <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5i8jgk1H6I" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5i8jgk1H...</a><br />
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    2. <br />Can't you read and understand ANYTHING? <br />Earlier Post ==>> "If they're part of an OPEN circuit (sitting in a box under your bed), odds are much, much lower (practically zero) they'll be affected." <br /><br />Where's the damned "antenna"? <br /><br />You keep coming up with all sorts of add on excuses to try to justify your failure to read and comprehend. <br /><br />3. Wait. You're in a SHELTER!?? Is that because whoever set off the nuclear BOMB called ahead and said, "Please be in your shelter by noon today. The bomb goes off at 12:05"??? <br /><br />Criminey. First you assert there's no such thing as an open circuit with semiconductors - which is patently false. Then you say that ionizing radiation can destroy semiconductors - which it can, but which is TOTALLY irrelevant because if the blast is that close, you're not likely to be around to use the solar panels, THEN you make up something about how disconnected solar panels would still be grounded (really? In a box? Under your bed?) and act like an antenna - which is true IF you've grounded them - which would be pretty asinine. I mean, why would anyone connect JUST the ground? And now people are getting notification to go into their shelter before the nuclear attack? Really? <br /><br />Yeah, EMP could cause a surge - but if your solar system is not connected to the grid, it's IRRELEVANT. "This is your friendly neighborhood terrorist reminding you of today's nuclear attack." <br /><br />You seem to have the idea that a nuclear blast will bring ionizing radiation and EMP, or neither. Of course, that's pure ignorance. You think the military nuked Hawaii with ionizing radiation in 1962? Or you think the reports of EMP effect are false? <br /><br />Bah! <br /><br />You're clueless! <br />
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    1. This post is about whether solar panels will survive an EMP pulse. The very first comment talks about EMP pulses being created by nuclear weapons. In fact, non-nuclear EMP pulses are small and targeted so they are irrelevant to solar panels. <br /><br />2. Solar panels are made of solid state devices. If they are photovoltaic then the collection device is solid state as is the inverter and probably other parts. Solid state devices are never off in the sense of physically disconnected. If power is on then they have leakage currents and they are small which makes them more vulnerable to EMPs. <br /><br />3. If a solid state is not connected to power they are connected to various electrical conductors, which will act as an antenna allowing voltage and current to build across the solid state device. Even without this the only EMP that matters here is a nuclear one and then you do have ionizing radiation that will also damage solid state devices. <br /><br />This all relevant to the discussion and technically correct and I have a MS in Physics and BSEE <br />
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  • Posted by MiJo 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I've been following this thread and while Bambi's postings have been somewhat abrasive she is undoubtedly more correct than dbhalling. (I hold Masters in both EE and Physics) <br />The latter keeps posting about Bambi's lack of knowledge which is surprising because Bambi is basically correct in her technical statements. It also seems to be true that what dbhalling does is "make an incorrect statement... abandon the statement and come up with another incorrect (or irrelevant) statement". He then claims that Bambi is ignorant. <br />In the name of civility, Bambi, could you be a little less caustic? And dbhalling, could you at least try to address the subject at hand, post something relevant and stop saying that Bambi doesn't know anything even though she's demonstrated more technical knowledge than you?
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Focus, Dale, Focus! <br />The discussion was about EMP. Not nukes. <br /><br />The source, is irrelevant… as are most of your comments.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You don't have the faintest idea what logic is, The reality is that non-nuclear EMP devices are very short range and cannot take out the power grid and would not be aimed at your solar panel, so are basically irrelevant to this discussion. <br /><br />From Wikipedia <br />"The range of NNEMP weapons (non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse bombs) is much less than nuclear EMP. Nearly all NNEMP devices used as weapons require chemical explosives as their initial energy source, producing only 10−6 (one millionth) the energy of nuclear explosives of similar weight.[4"
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Again, your logic sucks. <br /><br />Milk comes from cows. <br /><br />By your reasoning, it can't come from goats and if we're talking about milk, we MUST talk about cows.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think that legal arguments have corrupted the physical reality of his understanding of the world.
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Right, Robbie. Dale doesn't seem to understand that. He allegedly has a Masters in Physics from U Texas, but clearly he's either forgotten most of what he learned, or UT has incredibly lax standards for awarding the degree. A third possibility is that he has no such degree and has been forging his bona fides. Whatever the case, I'd expect anyone with a degree in physics to have a better handle on the issue of EMP than poor Dale. <br /><br />His comment that ionizing radiation can kill semiconductors, while correct, only points out that he's clueless. Any ionizing radiation strong enough to do that would almost certainly kill the PEOPLE who would want to use the semiconductors. And aside from the fact that ionizing radiation can create an EMP, it's completely irrelevant to the conversation.
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