Galt's Gulch citizens

Posted by Dobrien 10 years, 4 months ago to Ask the Gulch
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Had Cheryl Taggert not been murdered would there have been a place for her in Galt's Gulch?


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  • Posted by philosophercat 10 years, 4 months ago
    She and Eddie would have married and named their kids John and Dagny
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    • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 4 months ago
      Yes, if Eddie had had the good sense to go on strike when he had the chance.

      I came up with two alternative destinies for Eddie. One would frankly have cut the story short: Eddie sees Dagny off on the comet, then goes to find John Galt ("the worker") waiting for him in the commissary. This time, Eddie opens by saying he is at last ready to quit--on the strength of having figured out how the authorities got Henry Rearden to give in. He has just then decided to walk out. Knowing nothing about the Gulch, he hopes to recruit his friendly worker to join him and a few members of Dagny's office staff to occupy the Taggart Lodge and try to get a self-sufficient community going there. John immediately stops him and suggests the conversation is better left for safer quarters. Eddie suggests going to the place in the Terminal underground where Dagny hid away the prototype electrostatic motor she had recovered from the Twentieth Century Engine Company. John recognizes his old prototype at once and says so. The rest logically follows from this.

      The second has Eddie making his escape much later. When he flies out to San Francisco, to deal with the San Francisco terminal manager quitting in the middle of the California Civil War, he sets a goal of getting an eastbound Comet started as his escape route. When the Comet breaks down east of Flagstaff, and the wagon train comes lumbering by, Eddie suggests they all drive toward Phoenix, Arizona--and the Dan Conway ranch. There Eddie encourages Dan to reopen the Phoenix-Durango Railroad, and drive into the Red Mountains. For he thinks he knows where to find the Gulch. And in fact, the real-life Durango Railroad served the town of Ouray in the Uncompaghre River Valley, the most likely Gulch location.

      None of this would have helped Cheryl any. For that, someone would have had to look out for her to break--if not John Galt himself, then maybe one of Ragnar's spies.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 4 months ago
    she was the "salt of the earth" producer whom Rand
    praised in so many ways -- from Eddie Willers to the
    "bum" on the train, from the "fish wife" to the technicians
    in Hank's mills -- they belong in the gulch! . I would dare
    to suggest that the gulch should be the u.s.! -- j
    .
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  • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 4 months ago
    Lets not call them citizens.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 4 months ago
      Right. Lawful residents, that's what they were. Or if you like, invited guests.
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      • Posted by lrshultis 10 years, 4 months ago
        That is why one should be careful for what one wishes. I do not see that living in what is a gated village is any better than living in a country with a wall around it with need to ask permission to leave and return. As one who hates being forced to have background music, as I have for years from a resort business several blocks away, I could not choose to live in the Gulch with Richart Halley's concertos blasting through the valley. In my case, the noise law is written in terms of 'public peace' which seems to mean that unless the public as a whole does not riot about the noise, then all you can do is sell you property and move. There is no way that the resort need pay for its economic externalizations. In the Gulch it would appear that it would be best to get out of there. Even like minded individuals have ideas about behavior of others and will have Gulch rules or laws and councils about conduct, fees or taxes, etc. The Gulch would become like religious enclaves but with philosophy rather that religion as the enslaving agent.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 4 months ago
    I thought she committed suicide? If so probably not. If yes. then yes. IMHO. Gulchers never give up and are not weak willed.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
      You are right, My mistake. I thought she was murdered by a social worker that fateful night.
      Have only read AS once just 6 mos ago. I certainly plan on the second time soon.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 4 months ago
        Not to be overly pedantic I read it the first time in 8th Grade or 9th grade and read it once a year. I still find new parts to ponder and consider.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
          I read Atlas Shrugged , then Anthem and then The Fountainhead all very recently .
          I feel very fortunate to have found this forum. Many members , including you Michael contribute to my vocabulary as well educating me about Objectivity , who have with curtesy shared their reasoned thoughts and perspective . Thank you.
          Also Thanks for your military service also.

          I wish I had found Ayn Rand in Eight Grade.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 4 months ago
            I am by no means perfect.

            I was presented a copy from a neighbor.
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            • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
              I have recommended Atlas Shrugged to numerous people and have received varied excuses why they won't read it . The most troubling excuse was stated "Ayn Rand she is the enemy" I no longer have any respect for that person by the way he has never read any of her books.
              Almost as frustrating is the response "I don't read books"
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              • Posted by $ root1657 10 years, 4 months ago
                I wonder how many of those same would digest and love some 'similar story' written by someone they didn't associate with Rand, thus circumventing their preconceived notions of her work.
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          • Posted by term2 10 years, 4 months ago
            Without forums like this and the works of Ayn Rand and others- what would we have but MSNBC and CNN and FOX to just make us more and more depressed. I dont want to be totally isolated from things, but its really bad to listen to the crap that gets put out by the media and the socialists. They lie, distort, pander, andmanipulate- anything but present reason.
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            • Posted by LibertyBelle 10 years, 4 months ago
              In the 60's it was worse. People just smugly ac-
              cepted that the leftist argument was the only one.
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              • Posted by term2 10 years, 4 months ago
                What concerns me a lot lately is the popularity of the Bernie Sanders ideas (plain out socialism) among the young people (the product of our schools and universities). He claims to be a socialist, which used to be a bad thing, but is now OK and even praised openly. If it were 4 years from now, he would win handily against Hildebeast. But HE will be too old by next election. I think however socialism will take over officially by then.
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                • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 4 months ago
                  Logically the young accept socialism. They spend an increasing amount of their lives as students. With minimum wages, many of the old jobs that kids used to take are unavailable so many of them haven't worked. They get everything they need from their parents, or government grants or even borrowed money that they have no sense of how hard it is going to be to pay back when they finally have to get work.

                  And some of them, at the end of this education become teachers where the product of their labor is unmeasured and their success does not depend on producing anything. These are the ones who communicate to children how society should work.

                  So at 20 something, they've spent their entire lives in a socialist system taught by people who spent even longer in one.
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  • Posted by ohiocrossroads 10 years, 4 months ago
    And why was there not a place in the Gulch for Eddie Willers? His fate in the book is unknown, as he was left stranded on a remote prairie trying to fix a locomotive.
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    • Posted by ewv 10 years, 4 months ago
      The fate of good people like Eddie Willers and Cheryl was the logic of the plot. Likewise for her We the Living. Ayn Rand said she wrote it that way because the plot had to show what happens to good but not exceptional people in that kind of society. She said that
      Eddie Willers was one of her favorite characters.
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    • -1
      Posted by IamThereforeIThink 10 years, 4 months ago
      The role of Eddie Willers is to illustrate the fate of what is modern day libertarianism. If you recall an earlier scene speaking to Dagny in their adolescent(formative) years Eddie responds, "Whatever is right." as his standard answer when questioned as to the outcome, fate, or destiny in all/any situation. He doesn't see (or has never learned) that it takes human volition to 'make things right' and rational ideas to even conceive of what is right. Galt understands that, if admitted Eddie brings with him baggage that says that a John Galt(genius) doesn't exist and doesn't have to exist because everything works out and falls into place automatically, naturally i.e., if Edison didn't invent electric light, someone else would have. Which is true only in a very shallow sense. In the case of the motor in Atlas Shrugged its a paradigm shift in civilized man. Dagny expresses it best when she discovers the remnant in the factory; "Don't you see Hank? This changes everything!" Uh, while we're on the subject of "the factory remnant" take a look at the header image on this page:
      http://www.GaltsGulchPortal.blogspot.ca
      & son of a b---- you know what this means? It means someone has done gone and invented that godamn motor!
      Don't believe it? Ya think that anyone could have? or it would have been done eventually anyway - no need for Ayn Rand or any such thing as a 'tremendous feat of abstract science' to even conceive or invent it!? Well folks for a million years since the birth of the idea of fire man has been on the wrong track and has never had a moments peace or harmony with living on earth then or since. Ayn Rand solved the anomally and expressed it in theory - what you see in that header image of that link-page is your key to putting together the concept of the motor in concrete form. If you can appreciate the thought and effort that went into its creation you're welcome to come and attend Atlantis/Galt'sGulch in June - if not, you don't understand the enormity of what this solves and the fate of Eddie awaits you.
      And I mean it.

      JohnGalt Iamoura
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      • Posted by GaltsGulch 10 years, 4 months ago
        Thank you for participating in Gulch discussions IamThereforeIThink. Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the Gulch Code of Conduct which states explicitly, Please do not… Spam the Gulch by injecting links to your website, products, or services, repeatedly in comments or posts.”

        https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/faq#10

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      • Posted by ohiocrossroads 10 years, 4 months ago
        I have never associated Eddie Willers with libertarianism. I have always regarded him as an earnest man who wants to do the right thing, but not necessarily with the intellectual power to discern the good from the bad. But once he has been shown what is good, he has the character to stand up for it. Such as the scene in his office when James Taggart was trying to force him to tell where Dagny was in the wake of the tunnel disaster. He refused, and would have held out against all punishment to protect Dagny.
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 10 years, 4 months ago
    Hmm? She committed suicide. She had a heroic spirit but found no way to live it and thought there was no way. So no, I don't think that was good enough for admission.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 10 years, 4 months ago
    Despite her assigned intelligence, She was on the edge of mental illness. It would be hard to say what caused her deterioration into a psychotic break without knowing her back story.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
      "it would be hard to say what caused her deterioration into a psychotic break"

      How about being married to James Taggert an
      enigma pushing the collectivist agenda with no morals and a deep seated resentment to reasoning producers.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 4 months ago
    Was taking the oath and keeping it a necessary or sufficient condition for residence in the Gulch? If it was not sufficient, what other criteria were there?
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 10 years, 4 months ago
    "Murdered"? She committed suicide.--Of course,that could have been a sort of murder, see-
    ing how she was driven to it.--Yes, I think there
    would definitely have been a place for her in Galt's
    Gulch if she could have gotten there. She was not a great industrialist, nor a genius, but one
    guy there told Dagny that outside he had been
    a truck driver, but that that was not what he had
    wanted to remain.--I think she was kind of
    like Eddie Willers.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 4 months ago
    Whether it is Cheryl Taggert, or Elmer Fudd, I think that a person should be welcomed into the Gulch, which is, after all, a virtual geographical location. The person(s) will soon realize if they fit in or not. If they are in the Gulch merely to be antagonistic, or to proselytize, they will quickly find themselves surrounded by various residents only too happy to grind them into a fine powder. Not that I recommend that, being a calm, wise, old gentleman.
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    • Posted by philosophercat 10 years, 4 months ago
      Remember to be in the gulch you had to take the oath and accept the rules plus not hide from one's contradictions. It demanded reason, morality, and productivity. That would keep most people out.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 4 months ago
        It would if the people the Gulch would want out, took it seriously. On the other hand, many people think they conform to the oath, when actually they don't. Would Cheryl be sincere when she took the oath and if someone knew her background, would she be accepted? I in effect said yes. Elmer would likely be OK as well, but probably not that "Wascally Wabbit."
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  • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 4 months ago
    Yes. In any of a number of minor roles. Galt's Gulch had two classes of residents: the big job creators, and those who worked for them, and not necessarily in their former professions. Consider the economics professor who became a lineman for Richard McNamara's utility contracting operation. Perhaps Cheryl might have become Midas Mulligan's private secretary. Who can tell?
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  • Posted by IamThereforeIThink 10 years, 4 months ago
    Atlantis is established as the refuge that is made available for the good people to escape to.
    Cheryl, represents the innocent that are awakened to the evil(her last discussion with Dagny) however, as many of you on this forum, she makes the fatal error to go back to confront it(James) and in so doing sees no alternative but to jump into the abyss.
    There still remain many of you out there in this exact situation.
    Ayn Rand solved this dil'emma' through the concept of Galt's Gulch - here it is in words(theory) - where we are it is in actions(practice) --- veeeery soothing to the soul.
    If you're going to comment on something named for this place you should at least place it in its proper context.
    Cheryl should have withdrawn(walked out on James) but where to go to?
    You, on the other hand now have this:
    http://www.GaltsGulchPortal.blogspot.ca
    Cherly, as innocent as she is, shows the importance of having an actual place where all this inner conflict is resolved. All of you now living through this dil*emma - shouldn't suck others into that mixed/mystic/altruist/collectivist maelstrom - it no longer has any rrelevance(and now would be classified as self-torture) the refuge now exists.
    Complete, consistent, compatible with living on earth.
    And I mean it.

    JohnGalt Iamoura
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