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The Republican Crack-Up Revisited

Posted by khalling 8 years ago to Politics
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Very interesting analysis of the struggles within the GOP to stay as a meaningful party. From the article: "Put another way, there has been no basis for Republican unity in principle, except perhaps for a strong national defense. However, on matters of domestic policy, constitutional limitations on government power, economics, immigration, trade, civil liberties, individual rights...on just about everything you can name, Republicans are all over the map. There's no single principle, let alone broader political philosophy, that holds the party factions together."
SOURCE URL: http://bidinotto.blogspot.mx/2016/03/the-republican-crack-up-revisited.html


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    Posted by Zenphamy 8 years ago
    The very definition of political party is nothing more than collectivism, power and influence seeking.
    I doubt that politics and it's parties can ever exist in the same room as individualist Objectivists, free market capitalism, and certainly not with individual natural rights and freedom.
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years ago
      Don't that logic lead to no government is needed, and anarchy can ensue?

      Do not get the wrong Idea, I am big proponent of the individual and free agency. However I think that people also have to come together to make things happen in a republic, or any self rule form of government. How would you propose to do so if a collective cannot exist and individualists at the same time? or perhaps I am reading to much into your statement.
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      • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
        The purpose of government is to defend the rights of the individual within a geographic area, not to "come together to make things happen" through government force. Individuals morally choose to act in relations to others in society through trade and individually shared values without physical coercion, and delegate the use of physical force to government for protection of the rights of the individual under objective law.

        A "collective exists" only as an abstraction referring to a number of individuals in some relationship. It has no priority of any kind -- metaphysical, epistemological, ethical or political -- over the individual thinking and acting himself. Only individuals exist as entities, think, choose, and through immediate self defense and through law protect their rights.
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        • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years ago
          And our current government has far exceeded any of the above parameters. In fact, it is the antithesis of any of the "collective" idea, in that it has no regard for any individual rights or freedoms, it speaks in terms of "groups" which is why the only way the idiots get data is from polls and focus groups that are wildly inaccurate and make things that much worse.
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      • Posted by 8 years ago
        it is recognizing how power and cronyism come to be. In a proper govt, those representing you in govt, would be seen as accountants or trustees/caretakers. They would be picked, not for their ingenuity/cleverness/popular ism, but their honesty and trustee nature. Why would you need parties? I think parties are useful for bringing resources to certain issues, disseminating information. But these things would decline under a proper govt
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years ago
        Why does gov't need political parties? A proper gov't must protect individual natural rights, protect against foreign invasion, and follow the rules for it laid down in the Constitution. The citizens of the republic choose those from within their own ranks to represent them, not professional politicians.

        In a laissez faire capitalist market, to make things happen people and business make things happen or more importantly don't, based on true need or economics through individuals, benevolence associations, partnerships, contracts, and corporations--not political favors or influence.
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        • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years ago
          Proper representation would not include political parties. It would have individuals who want to be representative of a part of the country have to make their positions clear on specific issues, then have all the individual vote for the one they deem best suited. However, that means a large group is not represented, becomes disenchanted, and works against the other group. As they change power, they end up merging each others changes into the horrible mess we call the U.S. today. Our laws are a huge mix of the disenchanted trying to "fix" what the other guys have done, and political parties became the substitutes for the individuals. They assumed the roles of the individuals and now the individuals are no longer needed. Hence the total lack of civility or individual freedom, you don't need to be nice to slaves. My point is this all started before the Constitution was even written, and has been accelerating ever since.
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        • Posted by Dobrien 8 years ago
          They are just actors. Playing a role that is ment to imply that they represent their constituents .

          The shadow govt in their cunning created two parties to give the illusion that your vote means something . So you think you have a choice ,

          One party bends us over and the other provides
          The lube , and they slap hands and change rolls like a tag team wrestling match.
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          • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years ago
            I recommend the following book:
            Glennon, Michael J. (2014-09-10). National Security and Double Government . Oxford University Press.
            I think it provides a very good academic study of the history and implications of "The Double Government", its inevitability arising from the failure of the Madisonians to account for the lack of civic virtue and responsibility in the American populace and the desire of the bureaucracy for efficiency.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 8 years ago
      So long as we are allowed to campaign for less government, doing so makes us a faction. I don't see that forming one, or a party, would make us corrupt; though we would be well advised to keep our eyes on one another.

      For as long as I've been alive, there have always been two groups that "control" the Republican Party -- its small-government base, and those politicians and lobbyists who see it as a vehicle to use to exchange money for political favors. Unfortunately, the inevitable incentive trap means that the latter, corrupt group is always going to have more money, and so is going to control the party unless and until the members can combine to elect an RNC which has higher priorities than raising money. (The Kochs are an exception, big contributors that don't favor the Trump types -- but they've helped the LP before and will again.)

      I believe it is high time to pick this fight right now, winner take all, even though it will probably mean the money interests win. Because the GOP without its base will no longer be a major party. The hard part is getting most of the base to leave it in the same, worthwhile direction; I see the LP as the best of a bad set of choices.

      Face it, whether we do this or not, Hillary Clinton is going to be the next president. But with a Republican Congress she won't be able to do much more harm than Obamination already has. And meanwhile we're going to be building the juggernaut that can move the Overton Window the right way, for the first time in 80+ years.
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    • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years ago
      Clearly "collective" is a truly bad word in objectivist circles. But the word can have many meanings. It can mean collective ownership of the means of production (Ugh), or collective control of individual actions (Ugh), or free individuals collectively collaborating.

      Three objectivists walk into a bar. Can they collectively decide to sit at the same table?
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      • Posted by edweaver 8 years ago
        I wouldn't think they would collectively decide but would objectively decide to sit at the same table if it was in each of their best interests. The decision would be made of their own free will. :)
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        • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years ago
          If each of them wanted to sit with the others of their own free will, they would still have to decide which table to sit at, this would require coordination and collective action.
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          • Posted by edweaver 8 years ago
            Wouldn't it just require one of them to sit down at a table and the others to decide to sit there too. Personally, I don't see a conversation necessary for this to happen. :)
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            • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years ago
              If the same one always sat at the table with no conversation, the others would come to resent not having a conversation. The friendship would quickly be viewed as not in there best interests...

              Conversations over the little things like what table to sit at are required if you wish to have a relationship long term
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              • Posted by edweaver 8 years ago
                The comment didn't say anything about coming to the same bar more than once so I didn't consider it. But really? Not having a conversation about what table to sit at could destroy a relationship. Me and my friends do it any time when we go to a bar. The first person in the door walks to a table and we sit down. No one asks where to sit. And we don't need to discuss it. Of course if someone thought we would be better sitting somewhere else they could do that too. Just move. We do that. Sometimes there is 2 or 3 at one table and a few at another. Never been a big deal to us. If I had to have a conversation on where to sit every time we got together, I may reconsider the friendship. Just not important to me nor was it the point of the comment. :)
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    • Posted by wiggys 8 years ago
      he is wrong. I find it virtually impossible to tell the difference between the parties with respect to the actions that they take. Just don't listen but observe what they do as Ayn Rand did and wrote about years ago. yesterday I believe some one on the forum commented about something Ayn Rand wrote about many years ago which rings true today as does virtually everything she wrote.
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      • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
        When Democrats ran socialist candidates Ayn Rand did see a difference, often advocating voting for an acknowledged bad Republican to stop it, such as her "anti Nixonites for Nixon" to stop McGovern.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
    Without a unified Republican party, there will soon be no place in which one will be able to find a little parcel of paradise. Where I live is still a great place, but very recently, my university is starting to have budget issues because of the economic problems elsewhere in the world. It feels like a balloon that is slowly deflating.
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years ago
      I feel the same way where I live. Its still very good, but given a continues shifting of the Oberon window to the more and more "big government camp" it is only a matter of time till that is no longer the case.

      Maybe the republican party will collapse and something more small government oriented will come into its place, but I really doubt it. A unified republican party is likely the only option to start to move things back towards smaller government.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 8 years ago
    Wow, that's very good. The party is fractured and we certainly need to get back to championing individualism first. My own observation several years ago was that the GOP had become statist. That ended it for me as it goes against everything I believe. Apparently, there are enough like me to have really corroded the party with our departures.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 8 years ago
    Ultimately both the R and D party are based on David Hume's philosophical ideas. The D's diverted along the Hume, Kant, Marx line and the R's along the Hume, Burke, Hayek line. This means that the Rs and Ds ultimately agree about fundamental principles, just not about the details. The key to real change is to eliminate Hume's philosophy from respectable company.

    However this is difficult even here in the gulch.
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years ago
      Question, somewhat related. What books would you recommend reading to better understand Hume, Kant and Burke. I have read some on Hayek and a lot on Marx would would love to understand there origins a bit better.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 8 years ago
        That is not as easy a question as you might think. Stephen Hicks’ Explaining Postmodernism (nothing on Burke in this one) is probably the best. My interest was fairly specific and most books are going to want to give you an overview of these philosophers and were not necessarily going to concentrate on what I was interested in.

        A good source for overviews of these philosophers without getting bogged down in the details are youtubes, often by philosophy professors. You have to search for the good ones, but the goods ones get to the point quickly usually about a specific issue such as Hume on causation. I put together a list of some good youtubes on philosophy while Pirate was here. I can pass along these if you want.

        Then academic/serious papers are my next source. I usually know what I am looking for once I have gotten to this step. Also there are a number of online philosopy wikis that are good. Generally one of these wikis will have a well laid out readable article on the philosopher or the issue, such as causation.
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  • Posted by broskjold22 8 years ago
    The Republicans are stuck with a schizophrenia of the soul. Ask yourself what kind of person runs on the premise of limited federal government at the federal level. Ron Paul and Rand Paul perhaps. Yet these candidates disappear. This is because the Democrats and statist Republicans are glad to take upon themselves the duty of any office they so deem as valid.

    It is the same reason state governments do not form their own laws but simply comply with federal regulation. Texas being a commendable exception. The checks and balances between the branches were primary upon ratification. The Federalists and Anti-Federalist differed in their interpretation of the Constitution. Now we have issue politics with parties as primary with the Constitution as the flickering light in the background.

    A lot of Americans want to return to the Constitution but are tumbled around by wave after wave of issues that easily distract us. We are in effect taught that abortion law is more fundamental than Constitutional separation of powers. We have pragmatists. We have "realists".

    Imagine a party to take over Washington and then divest it. Is it possible? There are buildings, people, processes, rules, regulations, laws, ways of life, all centered around our issue politics. With our fundamental issue, the Constitution, taking a back seat. It is regrettable.

    So what drives issue politics? Lobbyists. Cronies. Etc. Who do not trust the consumers to make the best decision or who boldly defraud people into a favorable position.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years ago
    the Rs are history, and the only question is, IMHO:::
    does their future configuration arise from the inside
    or the outside. . if someone good like Gary Johnson
    can ride up on a white charger ....... -- j
    .
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    • Posted by $ jdg 8 years ago
      He ran as a Republican in 2012, before he ran as a Libertarian. He got some good voter support, but was frozen out by the RNC, as were the Pauls.

      No. The way to win those voters now is as an LP candidate, or maybe an independent. The GOP has ceased to be useful. It just needs to be put out of our misery, the sooner the better.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years ago
    The Founders of the American republic were not fans of political parties, as they served the interest of a powerful elite, rather than the interests of the individuals. Populists often create a disconnect within established parties by running a campaign of ideas that threaten the established leadership. Often, these populists run on a single issue, like William Jennings Bryan, on the evils of the gold standard, but sometimes they run simply in rebellion against the incompetence of the establishment, like Donald Trump.

    The question that has to be asked is whether or not there should be a law against the existence of political parties. Chaos would undoubtedly ensue, for a time, as well as challenges under the 1st amendment, which I think would fail if justices adhered to the original intent. The defense is that people would not have been denied the right to peacefully assemble. There is no constitutional right to form political parties.

    After such an act, candidates for election would still have to have the backing of either a few powerful parties, or a large mass of the people. By depriving the candidate of a mass market label, the reality of their campaign positions would have to stand closer scrutiny.
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  • Posted by richrobinson 8 years ago
    I honestly feel a similar divide is happening on the Democrat side. Each party has has their "base" which is too small to win a general election so they try to buy the rest of the votes they need. After years of this the moochers are now able to control the two parties. A total mess.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 8 years ago
      Yes the environmentalists do not agree with the unions, who do not agree with the feminists, who do not agree with the one world government people.
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      • Posted by richrobinson 8 years ago
        I do think Trump is running a very effective campaign. He is stoking the anger each group is feeling. He'll probably do the same in a general election. Interesting times we live in.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 8 years ago
          All that shows is how stupid people are
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          • Posted by 8 years ago
            they don't want to think. They always tap into feelings. They are taught to do so in school, in church, through patriotism-tribal.
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            • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years ago
              Its an old problem too.

              While I know many here do not have any love of the bible, in 1 Samuel 8 there is a very good example of exactly what is hipping today.

              The people ask for a king, the prophet says no, dumb and provides a long list of all the terrible things that will come about from a king. Paraphrasing the response, it is we want a king, we want to be like other nations and we want someone to think for us.

              It amazes me that we see it today, and that it has gone on for likely as long as humans have lived.

              Give people freedom and prosperity and in enough time they will choose slavery and poverty again in order to not use there own mind.
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          • Posted by lrshultis 8 years ago
            I have been trying to find a better adjective than stupid. I was thinking of Obama as intelligent but stupid but stupid seems to not to include intelligent in it. Trump, if I recall right, has an IQ at a genius level but acts stupidly.
            Here is a dictionary definition of stupid along with synonyms. Maybe dull would work best.

            stu·pid (st›“p¹d, sty›“-) adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est. 1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse. 2. Lacking or marked by a lack of intelligence. 3. In a stupor; stupefied. 4. In a dazed or stunned state. 5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job. --stu·pid n. A person regarded as stupid. [Latin stupidus, from stup¶re, to be stunned.] --stu“pid·ly adv. --stu“pid·ness n.
            ————————————————————
            SYNONYMS: stupid, slow, dumb, dull, obtuse, dense. These adjectives mean lacking or marked by a lack of intellectual acuity. Stupid, the most inclusive, means wanting in intelligence: Despite a lack of formal education, she was far from stupid. Slow and dumb imply chronic sluggishness of perception, reaction, or understanding: The school offers special tutorials for slow learners. It was dumb of him to say yes. Dull suggests a lack of keenness of intellect: “It is the dull man who is always sure” (H.L. Mencken). Obtuse implies a lack of quickness, sensitivity, or perceptiveness: At the time, I was too obtuse to grasp the true implications of her behavior. Dense suggests impenetrability of mind: The woman kept signaling that it was time to leave, but her escort was so dense that he just kept sitting there.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years ago
    There's a lot of interesting stuff here. I strongly agree with most of it. I'll respond to the parts I disagree with.

    What passes for a Democratic philosophy is a hodgepodge of little problems that the gov't can help you with. They are not united under a single philosophy-- a strong federal gov't as an instrument of change. Many of them are deeply distrustful of the federal gov't for the military, drug war / prison-industrial complex, and law enforcement spying on and trying to discredit groups and demonstrations.

    It's odd to hear him say Republicans are united behind military spending right after saying the Democrats are the ones who believe in big gov't. If you exclude Social Security and Medicare (based on the fiction that they're separate insurance programs) and include health and education programs for veterans, war is what the gov't spends most money on. There's a bipartisan consensus in support of huge military spending.

    I agree with the stuff toward the end of the article, esp that it's contradictory to expect individualism to flow from the party to the individual. I agree if individualism becomes more widespread, politicians will respond.

    Somewhere toward the end he says words the effect of "our society is in grave peril." People commenting on gov't, social problems, etc usually feel the need to say things are horrible. I don't know if that view drives them into writing, if that's what gets readers, or that's how their readers see the world. Whatever the reason, I agree with him the need for more individualism and less statism. I don't see we're in immediate peril.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
      Democrat political philosophy is progressive statism, not a "hodgepodge of little problems" to solve. They don't oppose government, they want to completely control it for their own ends of social transformation. They aren't "distrustful" of government; they "distrust" their opponents controlling it. Even with the military, when the Democrats control government the old "anti-war" crowd announces, "They're our planes now".

      Democrats do not oppose government, they deny and evade their coercion and spread false 'narratives' like "the government is us" or is "We the People" -- the standard collectivist dictatorship line. We are the country, not the government, and we are being ruled by government.

      The warped notion of 'only solving problems' as an evasion of acknowledging ideological statism-collectivism is Pragmatism denying principles on principle and as ideology in the name of non-ideology. Pragmatism openly embraces statist methods by adopting the unprincipled "do whatever works": When government coercion is always regarded as a "pragmatic tool" for any end in the name of solving a problem, with no principles allowed to ban the coercion on principle, you have statism as a philosophy of government.

      Pragmatism is a parasitic philosophy relying on unadmitted principles of unacknowledged philosophy to decide the criteria of what works by what standard for whose purposes and how anyone can know if it does "work". Pragmatism itself does not work. It is serving as an evasion of the indefensible altruist and collectivist and statist principles of progressive government, always progressively imposing and promoting more and more statist controls and taxes with no end in sight and no statement of how much would ever satisfy them -- because nothing ever could .

      The military is by far the smallest segment of Federal spending compared with the social programs in the rest of it, and is not "spending on war" -- as national defense it tries to prevent war beyond what we are already suffering. It is wasteful and often misguided for bad foreign policy, but most of the money does not go to active "war". That does not change by artificially excluding most of the social spending in a false comparison. The declining value to Democrat multi-culturalists of the need for national defense of this country is not a compliment.

      This 'Pragmatism as cover' is the meaning of Obama's latest line: "I think for your generation you should be practical and just choose from what works. You don't have to worry about whether it neatly fits into socialist theory or capitalist theory, you just decide what works."

      The Pragmatism with altruist-collectivist unacknowledged ideology is how he and his supporters are "fundamentally changing" the country into neo-Marxist collectivist tyranny and balkanization in the name of non-ideology -- and is why the Republicans, who have swallowed the same century-old Pragmatism with an underlying ideology that amounts to "me too but slower" are ineffective in challenging him. This is where the epistemologically pragmatist "open capitalism" of the "mixed economy" has led.

      Yes the country is in "immediate peril". The country is headed into fascism with communist slogans in the name of "solving practical problems". Only anti-intellectual pragmatism allows the evasion of that. People who are watching what is happening and trying to warn against it are not subjectively motivated by "usually feeling the need to say things are horrible", which accusation is anti-intellectual and gratuitously insulting.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years ago
        Thank you for the detailed response. I'll take them by paragraph.
        1. You reiterate the point I made about a bipartisan consensus for high levels of war spending.
        2. You hit on something related to my point-- the bipartisan consensus is for expensive gov't.
        3,4,6 - I know villains use pragmatism and being practical as an excsue for their actions, but I do not believe all cases of being practical and using what works are part of the evil philosphy of the villains in the book.
        5. I consider it Orwellian sophistry to argue maintaining a huge armaments industry is actually peace spending. The part about it being invalid to consider Social Security and Medicare separate just because they come from separate types of taxes make sense. Note that I called it a "fiction". None of this changes the fact the bipartisan consisent considers it beyond the pale to cut military spending to be equal to that of all current and potential enemies. Spending on military is so enormous reducing it to just a high level of spending is considered radical.
        7.It either hyperbole or going off the deep end with this "neo-Marxist collectivist tyranny".
        8. If things turn to worms, the doom predicitors will be vendicated. I'm confident they're wrong. You're right that there's no point in my guessing the motivations of doomsayers.
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
          You missed the point, just like you missed the point of Ayn Rand's essay "The New Fascism: Rule by Consensus", it is not "useful to your point", and I did not reiterate any of your assertions.

          Pragmatism does not mean being practical, and rejecting it does not mean rejecting being practical. Being practical requires acting in accordance with valid principles. Violating principles results in injustice and destruction. Pragmatism does not work. Democrat political philosophy is in fact progressive statism, not a "hodgepodge of little problems" to solve.

          Accounting gimmicks and a phony, non-existent "trust fund" for social security and medicare do not make spending on national defense most of the Federal budget. The government spent our social security taxes long ago under the ruse of borrowing from itself. All taxes go into the general fund. Most spending and taxes, even spending on defense, is not "war spending", and defense is not a conspiracy for the "armaments industry". Your leftist rhetoric sneering at national defense betrays you.

          Whatever you liked about Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand's novels and philosophy that you don't read have nothing to do with leftist 'narratives' and evasions of what their statism and collectivism, including their misanthropic anti-private property rights eco-fascism, is doing to us.

          Those who, like Ayn Rand for entire life, are warning against the destruction and violation of the rights of the individual by the progression into neo-Marxist collectivist tyrants, like Obama and Clinton, are not "doomsayers", contrary to your continuing smear. The "fundamental change" imposed by the left away from the founding principles of freedom and individualism under constitutional government in this country is not leading to "more individualism and less statism", and like Pragmatism, leftist rhetoric pretending otherwise does not "work".
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  • Posted by term2 8 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Well you have attributed all evils to trump for some reason. I hope you are right about letting Hillary off the hook. She has sworn to raise minimum wage to at least $12, to increase taxes and eliminate capital gains treatment over $250k (,more than doubling the taxes on selling almost any business) she will cripple the gun industry and erode the 2,nd amendment and make obamacare permanent.
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    • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
      You are correct regarding Hillary's stated evil intentions. The "some reason" I attribute bad things to Trump is what he has said so far regarding specific issues. There is precious little meat on those bones. This leaves us to speculate about what his actual political philosophy might be (whether it is consciously or unconsciously held) and then extrapolate to figure out what policies he would attempt to implement. I don't like what I'm hearing from him on 1st Amendment, tax and general economic issues. On most other issues I don't trust him because he has reversed positions so many times in the past and seems like a generally unpleasant fellow. That shouldn't be the test for president but he leaves us little choice.
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      • Posted by term2 8 years ago
        I think that since trump has no contributors he has to pander to, I think you haven't heard a lot of specifics because he is interviewing for the job by showing his capabilities and general directions. If elected we will see him pick very qualified subordinates and advisors to give him specific and timely information upon which to make decisions. We have had 8 years of a pretty incompetent historically black president who hired pretty incompetent advisors. If we get Hillary, it will be more of the same plus she will attempt to hide what she does. Foreign affairs will remain the mess it has been. She will be the historic woman president. Neither black skin not female gender are qualifications for president. Trump will get respect from foreign countries. To that extent he probably can make America great again. Internally all he can do is get government out of the way of business and perhaps be some sort of inspiration to businessmen to keep on trucking until you overcome adversarial events. I don't know if he can do that, but I can tell you Hillary will do the opposite.
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        • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
          Wow. You certainly are optimistic regarding the Trumpster. He certainly is pandering to the anti-imiigratiion build a wall crowd, that's for sure. He also is pandering generally to the anti-corporate impulses with his cries to stop companies from moving and the economically ignorant with his calls for tariffs on foreign goods. I, for one, would like to hear specifics during a job interview of a candidate who cannot set forth any political philosophy or set of guiding principles. By the way, who are these "subordinates and advisors" and what do they believe? Any names and ideas? Trump respected by foreign countries? You must be joking. He is universally regarded by our allies as an idiot or outright dangerous. If you want to get a taste of how up to speed Trump is on foreign affairs, check out the transcript of his interview with the Washington Post editorial board this past week. His ignorance is breathtaking for someone who has been running for over six months. Having said all that, I really don't think we have much to worry about. I think Trump will get the nomination and then be beaten badly by Hillary, but the GOP will hold on to both houses of Congress. That equals gridlock.
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          • Posted by term2 8 years ago
            I think Hillary is bought and paid for. She is promising literally everything to the stupid people who will vote her in. She will do almost nothing of what she promises except increase government powers and taxes and hand favors to the establishment. Big favors like Obama have. Expansion of obamacare with favors for insurance companies. Foreign aid and help for refugees who hate us.

            I think GOP. Will hold onto one of the houses but prob not the Senate.

            If trump gets in , I think the wall will get delayed because illegal immigration slowed on its own, taxes will go down on us, companies will get either no taxes or lower taxes on overseas earnings, corporate taxes will decrease, and there will be some increases in economic activity due not to trump himself but the "make America great again" psychological boost. I do think he would cut back on foreign aid and fighting nonproductive wars.

            Most of what you fear from trump would never happen because the GOP. hates him and they will have only one chamber of congress
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            • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
              Well, I agree with all you say about Clinton. That's why I'm hoping for gridlock as the best option. Much of what Trump talks about so incessantly won't happen either (e.g. there will not be a national door to door search for illegal aliens and Mexico won't pay for his wall) but I fear what he will actually come up with in the future because he has no discernible political philosophy. I guess this conversation has convinced me more to vote for Johnson.
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              • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                If it's fear of what trump might do vs what we know about hillary and what she will do to continue the run towards socialism, I think far more damage would be done by Hillary. A 4 way race decided by the house would be a good thing this time
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                • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
                  Nobody other than the Republican or Democrat will win an electoral vote so House will play no part.
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                  • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                    Oh. Crazy rules. Well it's trump or we are stuck with the evil witch woman
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                    • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
                      So you choose the devil we don't know over the devil we know. Got it.
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                      • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                        actually, wouldnt the house make the call if the repubs trashed Trump and he went independent and took enough voters to win some electoral votes- making it unlikely either Cruz or Hillary would get 270?
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                        • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
                          Are you asking what would happen if Trump lost at the convention and he then whined that the outcome was "unfair," breached his written agreement to support the nominee and then tried to run on a new party or as an independent? The answer is that he would be much too late to get on the ballot virtually anywhere. He would never get an electoral vote, but would ensure a landslide victory for Hillary if he magically did get widespread ballot status. The House would have nothing to do with it. If you don't believe me, try this thought experiment: Try to name a state where Trump wins as an independent agains Clinton and Cruz. There is no such state.
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                          • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                            So I guess we are stuck with the wicked witch. So much for small business with her $12-$15/hour minimum wages. So much for the economy with the unemployment that will cause. So much for the disincentives to start and then sell a small business (no capital gains treatment as she has proposed). Forget respect from foreign countries as they would look no further than her dismal performance as sec of state. I am pretty disgusted and losing interest in riding down with this country. There are other places.
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      • Posted by term2 8 years ago
        I think that since trump has no contributors he has to pander to, I think you haven't heard a lot of specifics because he is interviewing for the job by showing his capabilities and general directions. If elected we will see him pick very qualified subordinates and advisors to give him specific and timely information upon which to make decisions. We have had 8 years of a pretty incompetent historically black president who hired pretty incompetent advisors. If we get Hillary, it will be more of the same plus she will attempt to hide what she does. Foreign affairs will remain the mess it has been. She will be the historic woman president. Neither black skin not female gender are qualifications for president. Trump will get respect from foreign countries. To that extent he probably can make America great again. Internally all he can do is get government out of the way of business and perhaps be some sort of inspiration to businessmen to keep on trucking until you overcome adversarial events. I don't know if he can do that, but I can tell you Hillary will do the opposite.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 8 years ago
    the party has become a collection of "me-tooers" ...the other side of the counterfeit coin called "democracy in america" with the democrats on the other side...
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years ago
    What I have asserted for nearly a year is that the problem of the Republican Party is one of classical marketing: their failure results from the attempt to be something ideologically to everyone. The Democrats have shifted ideologically further left with each decade so that now they are indistinguishable from socialists (neither Hillary Clinton nor Debbie Wasserman-Shultz has been able to differentiate). One of the results (intentional or not) is that they have a very targeted message, a very defined ideology, and can therefore rely on a loyal base while they seek to persuade others.

    What that has done is left much of the rest of the country looking for representation. Instead of focusing on their core constituency (conservatives), however, the Republicans have attempted to mold an ideological message which appeals to many ideologically separate groups. And this has utterly failed. In marketing, focusing one's message is key to driving both retention of existing customers and the development of new ones. If one wants to attract a new market, one creates a new product line (see for example Toyota and Lexus).

    Take the appellation "RINO" for instance. That term only started to appear after Bill Clinton assumed office and began driving the Democratic Party towards the Progressive/Socialist mantra, disenfranchising the socially liberal but fiscally conservative base which used to form the backbone of the Democratic Party. Because there was still a sizeable contingent of voters with these values, prospective representatives of these districts adopted these same values. Because they weren't Progressive enough for the Democrats, however, they couldn't get funding in these areas from the Democratic Party so they appealed to the Republicans, who saw only a chance to finally compete in areas they had not been able to get a foothold in previously. The problem is that the Republicans failed to see the common marketing problem of "brand dilution" which results when a company tries to be everything to everyone (see Microsoft) and the resulting product problems which result. I would also point out that in times when the conservative base of the Republican Party has risen up (Contract with America, Paul Ryan's budget proposals, etc.) that they have been tremendously popular and been supported by an energetic base.

    This still, however, only accounts for between 30-40% of Americans today, with a similar quotient on the Progressive side, which leaves a not-insubstantial "moderate" or "independent" middle ground that are largely the ones who determine election outcomes. What I'd like to see is the Republican Party split and either assume the mantle of the Libertarians or take back up the mantle now largely seen as the Tea Party movement. If the Republican Party does not focus on a platform, however, they will merely continue to hemorrhage voter support because of their lack of consistent core principles.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
      The fundamental problem of the Republican Party is not "marketing". They have nothing to market. Telling them to better sell something they don't have does not address the lack of a coherent philosophy of reason and individualism. That is why it has just collapsed into the likes of a Trump with no principles other than pragmatist statism marketed very well as another "Deal" to save the frustrated.
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      • Posted by conscious1978 8 years ago
        Just as better marketing is not the answer for the GOP, neither is Trump "changing his tone" the solution to his candidacy. That both of these are popularly suggested is another example of the deeper Pragmatism oozing to the surface.
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
          I noticed that in blatant form with Mark Levin publicly urging Trump to modify his campaign tactics. He didn't realize not only that it is his campaign, anyone watching it from the beginning could see that it is Trump -- and that Trump is a screwier candidate than Perot, who became the same kind of populist candidate. The difference is that more people caught on to Perot sooner, Trump is a slicker pied piper salesman, and people who lack principled understanding are more desperately frustrated.
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  • Posted by UncommonSense 8 years ago
    I believe we are witnessing the old 'divide & conquer' tactic. The question is, who's directing it? And why are the people voting in spineless, lily-livered squabs in office to begin with? (Boener, McConnell...)
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    • Posted by Dobrien 8 years ago
      The large non profit foundations! Carnegie, Rockefeller, Guggenheim, Ford . They control the media, the Universities , the diplomatic Corp.

      They vote them in because the alternative is even worse.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
    Objectivism, unlike Republicanism, has the principles around which like-minded individuals could coalesce, but such individuals have decided that such coalescence is not in their own best interest.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 8 years ago
      Objectivism is a philosophy not a political party. The goal of objectivist should not be too closely aligned with any political party or movement. The goal is to change the underlying philosophy and the politics will follow.

      This quote from John Maynard Keynes of all people explains it.
      “The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed, the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually slaves of some defunct economist (philosopher).”

      I see this in the gulch everyday. People think they are coming up with an original position, when in fact they are just repeating a (long dead) philosopher's position and usually not as well as it was originally stated.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
        You made a very intriguing statement: "The goal is to change the underlying philosophy and the politics will follow." But who will make such a change? Is it one or more of us? Certainly such a person would have to see such a change as so much in his/her best interest that he/she would do this as a lifelong endeavor. I don't see that as happening, precisely because Objectivism is not a political party. Such a change would consequently require a silent coup of university philosophy departments. I can see that at some, but not many, universities. The tenure system could be either very positive or very negative in the success of such a silent coup. One serious constraint on such a coup is that the time to reach success would be long enough that even Objectivist philosophers might have a hard time justifying it as in their best interest.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
        I didn't say that Objectivism was a political party. Political parties, however, should have a philosophical core set of values.

        Keynes was way off base on this quote, as he was with most of his philosophy and economics. The world is largely ruled by dictators and demagogues, rather than the ideas of economists and political philosophers. If the world were largely ruled by economists and political philosophers, it might be a better place, depending on the economist and/or political philosopher.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 8 years ago
          J what is amazing is that you work with ideas every day and you see the power of those ideas to create things. Then you make statements like the one above denying the power of ideas.

          What allowed Lenin to start a revolution in Russia? Marx. What allowed Marx to get away with his philosophy? Kant. Who provided the ideas that allowed a Kant? Hume.

          You are also the product of ideas (philosophy) at least at work. You are the direct product of Aristotle, Galileo, Newton, and Locke. Of course that is not to say that you have not accomplished amazing things in engineering (not philosophy), but a Newton could never have existed if he had be born and grew up in China or Africa.

          Dictators and Demagogues are not leaders, they are followers. They require a world in which many people have accepted the underlying ideas even if they have never hear of Kant, Hume, Aristotle or Locke.
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          • Posted by term2 8 years ago
            When the people are ready, the leaders will emerge. I am hoping that Trump is responding to at least some people seeing the cracks in our governmental system and will expose them to the light of day. Perhaps not in a principled way, but at least we get to see whats going on without political correctness getting in the way.

            If John Galt ran for president today, he would be soundly defeated as the people are not ready for him and probably wont be during our lifetimes (at least mine).
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            • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
              Galt would not want to be President. As for Trump, you can always hope, but the chance that he will suddenly adopt any philosophical principles and apply them to politics is dim at best.
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              • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
                Galt very explicitly refused in the novel try to help save the statist system, which would have been futile. There is no way to save such a system from within. The 'strike' was only to accelerate the inevitable. He told them that if they wanted to save the country to get out of the way and they refused. The President today cannot govern other than by the statism enshrined in law and fiercely protected. What "Galt" would try to function under those terms?

                Ayn Rand, who wrote what Galt was to say, emphasized that there can be no political solution -- with a futile "Objectivist Party" or anything else -- without a major shift in explicit philosophy to reason and individualism in the culture:

                'We cannot fight against collectivism, unless we fight against its moral base: altruism. We cannot fight against altruism, unless we fight against its epistemological base: irrationalism. We cannot fight against anything, unless we fight for something—and what we must fight for is the supremacy of reason, and a view of man as a rational being."

                Politically, the best that can be expected are political candidates able to draw popular support with an articulate defense more in favor of freedom in some way than the current crop: "Will he protect freedom or destroy the last of it? Will he accelerate, delay or stop the march toward statism?"

                Today we are running off the end of even that possibility. It requires an appeal to the American sense of life that used to prevail despite the contradictions of the altruist-collectivist ideology widely paid lip service to, and that is running out as the explicit ideology progressively takes over across the culture. It is still not at the level of the European statist mentality, but is more acquiescent and larger portions of the population are explicitly collectivist, mindless, and being stoked.
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              • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                I am not hoping that somehow objectivist principles will be adopted by Trump or any of the other remotely electable candidates actually.

                It will take a lot of education of a LOT of people before that would could happen. BUT, in the meantime all we can do is use our votes to pick the least bad politicians, and perhaps ones who would cut down the use of government to further the aims of the misguided socialist types
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                • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
                  Gary Johnson
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                  • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                    NOT REMOTELY ELECTABLE
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                    • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years ago
                      A new poll shows Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson at 11 percent!
                      http://patch.com/new-hampshire/concor...

                      In every presidential election, people are told that they are “wasting their vote” if they vote for the Libertarian candidate.

                      As one who has voted for every Libertarian presidential candidate since 1972, I think the exact opposite is true. By voting for my principles, my votes over the years have had far more impact than if I had allowed the two “establishment” parties to dictate my choices.

                      No matter how you have voted for President in the past, your vote has never made a difference in the outcome. Nor will it do so in the future. Even if you live in a “swing state” that could go either way, your lone vote will not spell the difference between victory and defeat for either establishment party candidate.

                      So if you can’t change the election outcome, why vote at all? The answer is that by voting Libertarian, you will be adding to the vote totals of the only party that consistently supports individual freedom. And those vote totals matter – the establishment parties pay close attention when a significant number of voters break with the two-party system, and they will often modify their stands on certain issues to protect their base and prevent further defections.

                      On the other hand, if you vote for the “lesser of two evils,” you are saying in effect, “I support the political status quo. I have faith in the two-party system, and I’m not interested in supporting candidates from other parties, even if they have fresh ideas that I agree with. I don’t like either of the two establishment party candidates, but I will vote for Establishment Party Candidate X because he or she is not quite as bad as Establishment Party Candidate Y.” This truly is a waste of your vote, and does nothing to advance the cause of freedom.
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                      • Posted by Dobrien 8 years ago
                        Thanks for your rational
                        explanation of our votes
                        value . It does show we
                        are committed to
                        our unalienable right to
                        Liberty and the pursuit
                        of happiness , using the
                        tool afforded us as
                        Citizens.
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                      • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                        It's a good argument. But my interest in saving this country is definitely waning. Before enough people can educate themselves enough, the country will have to go through the venezuelan cycle. I really think trump could slow down the destructive process (which is why the establishment hates him so). I will vote for him to voice my intense dislike for the establishment in the hopes that in the quiet of the voting booth enough others will do the same.

                        There are a few things that might change my vote. What if the repubs are stupid and force trump out and the dems do the same with sanders- and they both go independent?. That might end our two party stranglehold !!!. I would abandon the repubs party and vote independent to force nebulizer pick the president.,(bye bye evil witch woman Hillary,). Gary Johnson still would have no chance of winning but he might enough electoral college votes to keep Hillary from winning
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                    • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
                      So what? You are not buying a win ticket at the race course. Vote for the best candidate for a change.
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                      • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                        We each get a vote, and rather than vote for someone who isnt going to even remotely win, I will vote for the best choice of the ones that CAN win. I have done the "principle" vote before, but its gone nowhere. And right now, a principled candidate has no chance of actually being elected in a philosophically challenged election.
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                        • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
                          When was the last presidential election where your vote decided the contest? Oh, never you say. You say you have done the principled vote before and it went "nowhere." Where did your unprincipled votes go? Where will it "go" this time after you vote for Clinton, Cruz or Trump? Think about this please.
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                          • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                            This is the problem with mob rule especially when one is selecting an overlord. In a real republic with a fixed constitution we would be selecting an administrator not an overlord. One vote out of 100 million doesn't decide these contests. But some overlord choices are definitely worse than others

                            In our system of two major parties, there are 2 candidates who win by just a few percent of votes however. Independents have little chance to get the 270 electoral college credits required for election, so the best an independent can do is throw the election into the house of representatives where one of the major party candidates would be picked anyway.

                            In this election trump is THE anti establishment, shake em up, and speak your mind presidential candidate that has a chance to get those 270 electoral college votes from actual voters, not cronies.,4 years of blowing apart cronyism can't be bad for us. I don't expect objectivist principles to magically be popular and make their way into politics instantly. The cultural thinking is just too statist right now. But it's a bankrupt culture and forcing its faults out into the light of day is an essential part of changing it.
                            That's why I think a vote for trump is a good thing this election, where 100,000 votes or less could mean keeping the evil witch woman from doing her wall street crony thing on us
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                            • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
                              The two party "system" you refer to is not in the Constitution. It has been created by the two parties themselves to hold power between them in perpetuity. Don't give in to it by supporting their cronies. As to Benito Trump, I think he is more dangerous than Clinton if for no other reason than he will likely have a Republican Congress. They may cave to his brand of neo-fascist authoritinarism. Where that will lead, who knows, but it won't be pro-freedom, that's for sure. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be water boarded ("or worse") while being forced to reveal the identities of my objectivist/terrorist acquaintances.
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                              • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                                The trump haters just bring up all sorts of horrible possibilities to denigrate him and keep people from voting for him. Compared with the other alternatives that have a chance of actual election, Trump is not a bad choice. He speaks his mind and will take down some of the insanity like Obamacare and political correctness. Its so unlikely he is going to "waterboard" YOU compared with things Hillary would actually do that its not worth worrying about. Hillary will take a lot of your money, and probabaly bail out wall street again with it, destroying the currency in the meantime.
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                                • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years ago
                                  You are right. Trump "speaks his mind" all right. Obamacare? What exactly would he "replace" it with? Oh, that's right, HSAs and cross boarder insurance. That's all he has spoken his mind about. He has, indeed, labelled any ideas other than his own as "politically correct." Stripped of any content that is just a smear. You are correct that it is unlikely I will be water boarded. Much more likely Trump will attempt to "open up" the libel laws as he has threatened in order to close down forums like this. As to Hillary, you seem to be sure that she will tax me more than Trump. I'm not so sure at all. Remember Trump has the 45% tariff (tax) ready to go. I happen to like some foreign goods.
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                        • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
                          I have done the "principle vote", and I have done the pragmatic vote (albeit only once). The one pragmatic vote was so that John Kerry would not get elected. I did not want GW Bush to win either. In the end, my pragmatic vote in 2004 was a mistake.
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                • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
                  The least bad politicians in today's context are those who, in Ayn Rand's words, "Will ... protect freedom [and and] destroy the last of it" and who will "delay or stop the march toward statism", not "accelerate" it.

                  That is not Donald Trump. A strong-arm, self-proclaimed "man on the white horse" Pragmatist promising to use "magnificent" and "wonderful" government power to make statist "Deals", with no concern for freedom and the rights of the individual, is the wrong direction. Please don't repeat the mantra of the idolatry claiming that Pied Piper Trump the Great is the only one who can save us. He cannot and will not, does not want to, and by present indications is so self-destructive that he can't even beat Hillary.
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                  • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                    I care less about who beats Hillary and Sanders. They are the evil twins- not trump. They WILL do considerable evil; you are only proposing trump will do evil. They are proposing huge minimum wage hikes and large scale tax increases. Trump is at least proposing tax decreases. ( discount the,,45% China tax-would never happen). The trump haters would complain about anything he said or did in offertory Hillary elected
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                    • Posted by conscious1978 8 years ago
                      There are no bounds to the lack of substance you offer in response to real, identified, characteristics that make Trump unfit for the Presidency. Deflecting significant, legitimate criticism using Trump's empty rhetoric, or railing against other unacceptable candidates, is a weak argument.

                      (cue the mantra)
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                      • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                        You are going to get Hillary OR Trump this time, no matter how much you ignore that. I guess you would rather Hillary. NONE of the other candidates have a snowball's chance in hell of actually being elected. EXCEPT...

                        I will grant you that if Sanders and Trump go independent after getting ignominiously dumped by their respective parties, we might get rid of Hillary after all, since she wouldnt get 270 electoral votes with 4 candidates sharing votes and the republican house would have to pick a president.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
            The vast majority of the world is still quite primitive and ruled by those using force rather than ideas. If the converse was true, woudn't the world be a more peaceful, productive place?

            Newton couldn't have existed in China or Africa. That is correct. As it was, both he and Galileo were persecuted. Galileo's persecution is infamous. Rand was correct in saying that the one commonality of new ideas is that they are ... opposed.

            Interestingly, Newton's persecution still happens to this day, particularly here in the Gulch over his "mysticism". He called it science, or at least discovery. Now it is derided as "alchemy".

            I do not deny the power of ideas. Ideas resulting in positive reality changes only occur in cultures that are prepared for them. You yourself have asked, db, "Why has inventing been concentrated in the last two centuries in relatively small populations of the U.S. and western countries?"

            Rand was right, and you were in a different thread. As you say in your own blog:
            http://hallingblog.com/2011/07/30/atl...

            "51) Loc 22594 “…when I worked in your world, I was an inventor. I was one of a profession that came last in human history and will be first to vanish on the way back to the sub-human. An inventor is a man who asks ‘Why?’ of the universe and lets nothing stand between the answer and his mind.”

            It is interesting that Rand points out that being an “inventor” was one of the last professions in human history. Perhaps the first person to take on the profession of a being an inventor was Galileo, who lived in Venice. Venice passed the first modern patent laws in 1474. The U.S. has been the preeminent producer of people who made their living as inventors. The America Invents Act is another step along the path of ensuring that no one will make a living as an inventor in the U.S. anymore.

            In fact, whenever you see great periods of prosperity, you see large numbers of new inventions. Whenever you see a lack of inventors inventing, you can be assured we are stagnating economically."

            We will continue to disagree about dictators and demagogues. They ARE leaders, but only in places DEVOID of ideas and full of ANTI-IDEAS.

            What allowed Lenin to start a revolution in Russia?
            1) Financial backing of JP Morgan et al, the Rothschild heirs, etc., all of whom were heavily invested in the perpetuation of war;
            2) the "ideas" of Karl Marx, which should properly be characterized as "anti-ideas" because they REQUIRE envy of achievement and subjugation of would be inventors; and
            3) the presence of an existing war (WW1) that the Russian serfs cared nothing about.

            You and many in the Gulch underestimate the power of those who use force to accomplish their objectives. While I am not endorsing a Star Wars philosophy, you and others underestimate "the power of the Dark Side".

            The fact that so many of us are here is testimony to the fact that I have "vanished" from the world of invention and that the world has once again become "subhuman".

            Know that I am working on inventions, but that they will not be seen by the outside world until that world is once again fit for me to exist.
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            • Posted by term2 8 years ago
              I am an inventor and I love to find new solutions to problems of living. But, I fantasize winning the lottery and just doing inventions for the fun of it and NOT commercializing them any more for the benefit of the statists who tax me and stand in my way. Its hard to be an inventor and "shrug" unless you are already wealthy. Inventing these days often involves buying advanced equipment, hiring assistants, and such.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
                I am just wealthy enough to be able to shrug. I likewise enjoy the invention process, but it is a costly endeavor as you correctly say.
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                • Posted by term2 8 years ago
                  I am doing my LAST business now. It gives me the cash and time to invent things, but I wont commercialize any more of them just to feed the statists. I resent heavily having to pay taxes already, just to support the 1 out of 7 in Nevada on food stamps, to support the government indoctrination centers (schools) that are the worst in the country and dont educate any of my children, to support god knows what with my $700 DMV tag fees and the $650 state business license fees for which I get NOTHING. I am one of the angry people that Trump talks about for sure. We are getting fleeced by these government types and all we get is one lousy vote in a few elections that gets diluted and discounted by millions of unwashed intellectually bankrupt votes. So there, I ranted and got it off my chest. I will say that Trump has done one thing for all of us- he has freed us from the shackles of political correctness. I say what I think nowadays.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
                    I am glad to provide you an opportunity to vent your frustration. It certainly is in your best interest, and it provided me enough entertainment to be in mine as well.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
            The error in your logic is that you have much too positive a view of humanity. The world has once again become subhuman, or at least unfit for invention.
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            • Posted by dbhalling 8 years ago
              Yes you Catholic upbringing coming through - original sin. We are all inherently evil
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              • -1
                Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
                I do not believe that all humans are inherently evil. The original sin argument is the weakest of all Catholic doctrine. That being said, I have yet to meet anyone who has lived a perfect life. My opinion of humanity is that humans are capable of being heroic as Rand defined in her definition of Objectivism, but that humans typically fail to consistently live up to their own ethical codes, let alone anyone else's. Humans live up to their own ethical codes the vast majority of the time, but the cases people remember are the cases in which humans do not live up to their own ethical codes. I think that my view of humanity is neither optimistic nor pessimistic, but rather realistic.
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                • Posted by dbhalling 8 years ago
                  Altruism sets a goal which is impossible to meet, thus those who accept it will fail by definition. Then the church or government can tell them they are evil and they accept it and become submissive.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
                    Your altruism argument is a non sequitur. Even though it is true, it is not relevant to the discussion at hand.
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                    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years ago
                      ah but it is....
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                        Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
                        I reiterate that db's altruism argument is not germane to my argument. It is an obvious fact that most people do not always live up to their own ethical codes. Arguments regarding altruism rely on acceptance of a false guilt, whereas people who do not live up to their own ethical codes should rightly feel shame for not living up to such codes. Those who do not feel shame for not living up to their own moral codes by definition have no moral code. Such people are not worthy of my association.
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