Then I'm in good company :)

My wife says that cantankerous is my middle name! 8-)

I understand what you're saying and was just being cantankerous. :)

All I can say is that anything on earth is God's to give to whom he pleases so it hasn't been taken (stolen) from the owner (Himself). Joshua was following God's instructions to wipe out certain cities with all their people for reasons many people don't understand, mainly the Nephilim which also was the reason for the flood. I'd love to discuss this further but I don't think others would like it and I don't want to sidetrack your thread. PM me if you want to chat. 8-)

yeah but lets not mention what God told Moses to do or how Joshua went about it? :) I'm all for private property don't get me wrong.

Imagine what a real Galt's Gulch would be like if it had to take people in regardless of their beliefs. Additionally, private property goes all the way back to biblical times with the 10 commandments. "Thou shalt not steal" implies a right to private property and that it shouldn't be stolen. I'll leave it there.

Maybe they should get a Mastercard instead! 8-)

My ancestors all came in legally with my dad having a green card until he passed. I guess it helps that my mom was a born here but was brought up in Spain.

Understandable. I can't really argue with that premise. I do feel that America has a better history and appreciation of individualism and thus a better chance, slim as it may be, to overthrow the elitists and take back our nation.
O.A.

...wait a second, a particular group with a long history of violent behavior? I get it is OK to suspect some people based on statistical analysis, but if they can prove their own individual merits why should they suffer for the sins of the collective?

I used to believe that nations were important, too. Now I believe that the most important division is not Americans vs. other nationalities, but individuals vs. the power elites (and their puppets and enforcers in government). I think nationalism is one of the elite's strategies of divide and conquer.

Depending on the type of Visa that is granted, there are different quotas, there are employment visas, family temporary (tourism) visas that do not allow you to work, student visas, and then there is a green card (you get a SSN, and legal status to do pretty much everything except for vote) and then once you get a green card you can apply for citizenship (typically there is at least a 3 year wait from one status to the next) and you only take the test when you go for citizenship.

I don't think they need to take a test. I know that legally once inside the US should they want to become a citizen they need to take a test.

Exactly. The only reform needed is in the process, not the quota. A smarter externally accounting of those who wish to come in, provided with legitimate paperwork by their governments would help immensely.

I see. I don't know much about immigration law. Don't they have to take a test on American history? And I think I heard somewhere that there is a limit on how many we allow in. Is that correct?

I hear you. I too voted for Perot. Twice.

Hello Kittyhawk,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I believe we are generally on the same page. I would not obey laws which forced me to do something immoral. That being said: I believe a nation has sovereignty and the right to set its immigration policy. I do not find that immoral. A lot has changed since the Statue of Liberty was erected. Perhaps if there were not 46% of all Mexicans (and who knows what the other nation's percentages are) wanting to come to America, terrorist elements trying to get in and a welfare magnet, more could be done to ease the access. But, that is the world we live in.

I want to see foreign nationals improve their own lot and their own nations. If that means they must have a revolution as we did, so be it. I believe it is not feasible to open the floodgates of the world. Some of my ancestors (paternal) came in so far back I cannot find records. Others (maternal) came in and were processed legally a century ago. They were happy to do so. The country was young and needed people to settle the land and build a nation.

Open borders and no control, means no security and a flood of foreign ideologies that would destroy the foundations of liberty and capitalism that elevated the masses like no other system devised. It is plain to me that many of today's illegal immigrants are not as interested in assimilating and joining in the melting pot as the legal immigrants. I am for legal immigration and in truth believe it necessary and profitable for our nation, but we must know who and how many or else we, the documented, will pay dearly in many ways. Perhaps if we didn't have so many who's first action in coming here was to break the law, we could redirect our resources, increase the number of legal immigrants and reduce the delays.... If our government had done its job in the first place...
Respectfully,
O.A.

You're for legal immigration right? Maybe we should go into the details on that. Why are people coming here illegally if there is a legal way?

Robbie, Maph's personal philosophy appears to differ from mine and Ragnar's -- there needs be no initial offense to warrant retribution.

you also want to give away my national and private property? well, I happen to think that eminent domain has some very tight limits -- not just willy-nilly-whoever-knocks-on-the-door.

LOL...

I think you mistake the tenor of my reply. Do you disagree that emigration should be legal (providing that the emigre can find somewhere to go that is willing to accept him)? This is a freedom that I think is important. It is not the same freedom as the ability to move 'into' a country. I regard borders as semipermiable membranes: they do not necessarily allow substances to move in one direction as easily as they move in another.

We are speaking in different terms, I think: you are postulating a non-existent reality (ie 'the free market fixes' - we do not, alas, have that society); I am commenting on an observed reality that is different than yours. I too live in a largely Latino neighborhood...at least some of whom are here legally. I have had interactions with some who I suspect are not here legally and they are hard working and pleasant folk. On the other hand, the company I work for has placed open positions with a local trade school but had only one response - who expected $20/hr for an entry level clerical job.

Jan