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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
    Thanks for posting this, k. While I certainly agree in the main with the general tenor and thrust of ITOE, I have many questions about specifics. Perhaps you can offer some insight.

    Rand says, "Percepts, not sensations, are the given, the self-evident." But she seems to contradict that when she continues: "The knowledge of sensations as component of percepts it not direct, it is acquired by man much later; it is a scientific, conceptual discovery."

    I understand the second part. I understand the first part. I do not perceive an empirical link between the two.

    Nothing is more directly perceptible than a pin-prick. You do not need to conceptualize "pins" in order to accept the perception as real.

    It is true that much later along the perceptual chain, it can be done to understand that percepts are the abstraction of sensations. But that is a very deep and conceptual identification itself.

    Can you clarify?
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
      She didn't say that you have to conceptualize entities in order to perceive them or to accept the perception as real. You have to perceive individual entities before you can isolate their similarities and differences in a field of other entities in order to classify and conceptualize them. Perceptual awareness is the base of all knowledge and is required before forming concepts.

      Perception, not sensation, is the conscious starting point of your conceptual awareness grasping the world: It is an automatic integration of sensations you are not aware of in isolation; you are not aware in the form of isolated, unintegrated sensations, each unretained beyond the immediate moment.

      Immediately before the sentence you quoted as a seeming contradiction of perception as the self evident base, "The knowledge of sensations as component of percepts it not direct, it is acquired by man much later; it is a scientific, conceptual discovery", she wrote:

      "Although, chronologically, man's consciousness develops in three stages: the stage of sensations, the perceptual, the conceptual—epistemologically, the base of all of man's knowledge is the perceptual stage."

      "Sensations, as such, are not retained in man's memory, nor is man able to experience a pure isolated sensation... Discriminated awareness begins on the level of percepts."

      "A percept is a group of sensations automatically retained and integrated by the brain of a living organism. It is in the form of percepts that man grasps the evidence of his senses and apprehends reality. When we speak of 'direct perception' or 'direct awareness,' we mean the perceptual level. Percepts, not sensations, are the given, the self-evident."

      There is no contradiction. Starting with perceptions you build up a hierarchy of concepts through a process of further abstraction (see for example chapter 3, "Abstractions from Abstractions"), building concepts on top of concepts in accordance with essential facts in order to understand ever increasing distinctions as you increase the scope and depth of your knowledge in the form of conceptual awareness. Perception is the conscious base of the whole hierarchy of concepts. That is the structure of conceptual knowledge, not a "perceptual chain".

      To observe that "percepts, not sensations, are the given, the self-evident" does not contradict the necessity of later discovering as, scientific conceptual knowledge "sensations as components of percepts":

      Once you have sufficient conceptual knowledge and have begun to think scientifically you can discover the physical and biological components and causes of the perceptions themselves and conceptualize the underlying nature of perception as composed of stimuli of the sense organs in the form of sensations that are integrated into perception.

      The perception of something as elementary as a pin prick is not, without further observation, enough to perceive the pin as the entity. Restricted to touch alone, you would have to at least feel the rest of the object or you could not distinguish it from needles, staples, etc. If it were your first experience of that kind you wouldn't know what the object is. You only perceive one aspect of the object from the prick alone and that isn't enough to identify a pin in contrast to other similar entities. But it is more than a pre-conceptual sensation because the sequence of a sustained prick across time is automatically integrated into a perception of the unknown entity in terms of one characteristic.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 1 month ago
    I got a glimpse of this entity to unit process when we took our toddler to the zoo. He had been to the zoo before, but he was starting to put things into categories. He saw an orangutan. He said with confusion in his voice, "Cat?" With even more confusion in his voice he asked "Bird!???" All animals in his mind could be classified as people, cats, or birds. It was funny and a little glimpse into this cognitive process.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
      He was trying to apply his knowledge by classifying the orangutan in terms of his existing concepts of living beings, not yet realizing that there are more than the three. He seems to have been guessing that it was more similar in some way to a bird than cats or people (maybe by being in a tree). Yet he wasn't sure, showing that he saw something was wrong, implicitly recognizing that something essential was missing but not yet quite aware of the need for further subdivision of his preliminary concept of animal or living thing.

      Chapter 3 in IOE describes how abstractions from abstractions are formed through subdivision and chapter 5 describes how definitions change as new knowledge of more facts requires changing definitions in order isolate essential characteristics within a wider field of knowledge.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
    All of what we know in science is based upon our ability to perceive the universe. Happily, our perceptions are not limited to those in the human sensory toolbox - as our scientific tools improve, we change our concept of the physical reality around us.

    Jan
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
      Perception means through your sense organs.

      Some measurement tools enhance what we can perceive directly, as in seeing through a microscope. Others provide information indirectly, which allows us to infer the existence of things that we cannot perceive, like electrons or electromagnetic waves in the non-visible spectrum, and which we conceptualize with theoretical concepts based on all the evidence that can be accumulated.

      The concept of physical reality does not change, we learn more about it and form new concepts for new aspects that are discovered. The referents of a concept are everything it refers to in the present, past and future, known and unknown at the time.
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      • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
        The mental metaphor I use is of one of those maps with cutout sections that expand, and then a cutout section of that expanding even further. Newtons Laws are not incorrect, but now they are a cutout-within-a-cutout in relation to quantum mechanics and relativity. They are still correct - but now our 'perceptions' (which, as you point out ewv) are really perceptions of measurements) have them in a broader context.

        Jan
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
          I don't know what the point of the maps is. Ayn Rand's epistemology is about how to think in concepts, not metaphors. There are a lot of metaphors about going into more detail, like 'peeling the onion', but they aren't epistemology.

          We don't perceive measurements, we perceive entities. A measurement is a relation between an entity and a unit regarded as a standard. You have to perceive entities and abstract their characteristics and relationships to be able to do that.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 1 month ago
    It is important to realize that scientists "understand" reality in terms of models and that most of these models are behavioral rather than existential. By this I mean that these models describe how things behave not what things are. Newton described the behavior of gravity with extraordinary accuracy and clarity but he admitted that he did not know the true nature of the underlying mechanism. Newtonian dynamics works well enough to enable the navigation of spacecraft from one planet to another so we can conclude that it bears a useful relationship to reality.
    Einstein pointed out that Newton's model is incomplete. He showed that under extreme conditions of velocity or matter density Newtonian dynamics becomes increasingly inaccurate. Einstein's formulation of general relativity was an attempt to resolve the inadequacies of Newton. He did this by showing that gravitation can be thought of as a distortion in space and time that is caused by the presence of mass. This model satisfactorily resolved the issue of the anomalous behavior of the orbit of Mercury and was further verified by observations of gravitational bending of light rays during an eclipse. However, Einstein him self realized that his theories were also incomplete and this was the motivation of his quest for a unified field theory. We now realize that special and general relativity have boundaries where, like Newton, they begin to break down. These boundaries are the very small and the very large. Relativity theories, being examples of classical physics models, are difficult to reconcile with quantum mechanics. This is because when things get very small or very large the classical theories fail to predict behavior. Thus the search for a "Theory Of Everything" or TOE, that unifies classical and quantum physics. The problem is that while both theories predict behavior with exceptional accuracy they appear to be in conflict with one another. The key word here is "behavior". These theories describes how reality behaves they shed little light on what reality is! In this sense, there is a barrier between physics and philosophy. It may be that the question "what is it?" is meaningless and the only valid question is "what does it do?"
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 1 month ago
      Would not a Universal Field Theory or a Theory of Everything include as it's sub theories the best formula for different parts. Why throw out the baby with the bath water when it serves a purpose. I give you land navigation, ocean or world navigation and astrogation as an example. Why stop there or discard what is useful at each major change? Why discard the old system of 24 hour days instead of saying Planet X the arrival point had an earth hour of 1.1 or 2.0 and an adjusted weight of 1.1 or 2.0 times? The rest is just a matter of decimals. More important would be which way will be designated North and which South. A matter swiftly decided by the rotation being to the east and that depends on which hemisphere held the first land fall.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 1 month ago
      "what is it?" might be asking for an explanation of something the e-prime folks try to avoid --- existence--- by removing any form of 'to be' from English. Perhaps the best that can be done is to recognize that which exists and discover the identities and interactions. 'what is it?' for an existent would be as hard to discover as is the 'what is it?' for consciousness. Might be best to just stick with 'what it is' as with discovering the identities of that which exists in terms of attributes and laws of action.
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    • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 1 month ago
      We observe behavior and from that we can conjecture what is responsible for that behavior. In normal experience water behaves like a true fluid but when we look closely enough we see that water is made up of tiny particles called molecules. If we break these molecules up into their constituent elements we no longer have water. If we are designing a pump viewing water as a smooth fluid is not only acceptable it is preferable. However, if we are designing an electrolysis vessel we must employ a different model. Neither of these models tell us what water is but they do tell us how water behaves under different circumstances. We can gain some understanding of reality by observing behavior and then by constructing a testable model of what the underlying mechanism might be that is responsible for that behavior. If the test of the model produces the expected results then we can say that the model is strengthened. That does not mean that we have gained understanding of the underlying mechanism but that we have obtained a more complete understanding of its behavior. In that way the model bears a useful relationship to reality. But it is not reality, it is only a model.
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      • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
        This is where your philosophy has led you: in the name of what you insist is "science" you don't know what water is. There are no conflicting "models" of water preventing us from knowing what water is. There is no identityless unknowable nothing-in-particular mysteriously exhibiting "behaviors" for mental "models" and nothing to behave. Water is made of molecules which viscously flow together as an aggregate fluid as an instance of what we call "liquid". A liquid is in contrast to molecular structures forming other states such as a solid. See for example Batchelor, An Introduction to Fluid Mechanics. Mechanically constrain it and the flow or motion is different. Freeze or boil the water and the high temperature causes the molecules to more tightly bond or separate into a solid or gas. Both the molecular and macroscopic states and properties are characteristics of water. It is the sum of all its characteristics. It is not an unknowable thing with incompatible behaviors stuck to a core with no identity, with a parallel disintegrated collection of free-floating conflicting mental models in the Kantian phenomenal world cut off from the real one. The characteristics do not contradict each other. Some of them explain others in the scientific theory conceptually integrating facts as knowledge of the world. When you know its characteristics distinguishing it from other liquids and states of matter you know what it is.
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        • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 1 month ago
          If I understand you correctly you are saying that what water IS and the sum of its observable properties are the same thing. Do you mean that what something IS is completely described by what we see when we examine it closely? If that's the case this whole discussion is just about semantics.
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      • Posted by Dobrien 8 years, 1 month ago
        I have read that our consciousness can influence an experiments results .I have no experience or proof of this .But if that is true then does our consciousness create or shape reality?
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        • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 1 month ago
          While there is no evidence that our consciousness creates or shapes reality it does shape how we interpret our perception of that reality. The act of observing does affect the thing being observed but the classical and quantum physics descriptions of this are quite different. In classical physics observation requires a transfer of information from the thing being observed to the observer. This typically involves a transfer of energy which must influence both participants. This is fairly easy to understand and consistent with conventional logic. However, there are instances involving quantum physics that are far more bizarre. One of these involves the behavior of entangled conjugate pairs of particles. It is known that certain reactions produce particles in pairs and that these particle pairs bear a predictable relationship to one another. PET or Positron Emission Tomography takes advantage of this so the phenomena is demonstrably real. this conjugation can take many different forms. For photons it is polarization and for electrons it is spin. Now the polarization of a photon or the spin of an electron cannot be determined in advance of performing a measurement. There is an equal probability that it will be right or left or up or down as the case may be. However, in the case of conjugate pair particles measurement of one immediately reveals the state of its partner. This occurs independently of the separation of the paired particles. Einstein struggled with this and the EPR paradox describes his concerns. If the standard model of quantum mechanics is correct then prior to measurement the quantum state of a particle can only be described as a spectrum of probabilities. It is the act of measurement that collapses that spectrum to a single point. Well, so far so good. However, the act of measurement also collapses the probability of the particles entangled pair and it does this instantly and regardless of the separation distance between the two particles. It is argued that this implies some form of instantaneous communication between the two particles which is in violation of special relativity. From this Einstein and his associates argued that the standard model is incomplete. Now it is acknowledged that the standard model is incomplete when it comes to gravitation but the EPR paradox suggests that it may be incomplete in other ways as well. The problem is that quantum electrodynamics and quantum chromodynamics are exceptionally precise in predicting the observable behavior of quantum-mechanical events. This is not likely to be coincidental. These theories, which are critical components of the standard model, must bear some close relationship to the underlying reality. I am left with two possibilities; the complexity of reality is infinite which means that no finite theory can ever encompass it, or, the complexity of reality is finite which means, at least in principal, total omniscience is possible. Either way, it's a mighty sobering thought.
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          • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
            You keep repeating the same lecture over and over promoting nonsensical philosophical interpretation as if it were science. It isn't.
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            • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 1 month ago
              That is a rather remarkable blanket statement. What is your understanding of how scientific experiments are designed and their resulting data interpreted?
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              • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
                It is a statement about your repetitious posts preaching bad conventional philosophy in the name of "science" in threads on this forum about Ayn Rand's epistemology. You have done this ranging from denials that one can rationally understand "what is it" to undermining simple statements of certainty that 2+2 is 4 to claiming that consciousness changes reality just by knowing. You don't discuss the topics, you just counter with the same speeches undermining certainty and understanding in the name of what you claim is science, as if that is all that needs to be said to justify the conventional cognitively nihilistic Kantian-inspired dogmas.

                Changing the topic to how experiments are designed and conducted, as you wrap yourself in the virtue of experiment and condescendingly write off anyone else as opposed to it, is not a defense of your philosophical pronouncements. It's a bad package deal. My understanding of science, mathematics and engineering, which is considerable, is not your philosophy.
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              • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 1 month ago
                The Copenhagen Interpretation throws out the law of identity and the law of causality. There was no real justification for this position and many physicists have pointed this out. This has lead to a number of problems and nonsensical projections.

                Unraveling the problem is not going to be done overnight especially because of the physics police who are worse that the PC speech police. But a good start would be to take Schrodinger's equation seriously and treat electrons etc as waves and not point particles.
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                • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
                  A common error is believing that subatomic "particles" like electrons must be either entities or wave motion in a medium like we experience them on the macroscopic, perceptual level. We cannot prescribe what reality must be. The fact is that in the quantum mechanical realm things have characteristics of both wave and particle properties under different circumstances, as experimentally verified since the beginning of quantum physics. See Bruce Wheaton's very interesting The Tiger and the Shark: The Empirical Roots of Wave-Particle Dualism covering the first 30 years of the science.

                  If we think everything in that realm must be either a "particle" or a "wave" as known in the macroscopic world, then we have a contradiction. But if you recognize that in new realms outside our perception they need not be like what we experience in the macroscopic world, and that a thing is the totality of its characteristics, then there is no contradiction as long as it is not something and its opposite in the same respect at the same time, which has not and cannot occur. There is no clash with the law of identity or non-contradiction -- unless we create a false one by trying to dictate what reality must be.
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                • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 1 month ago
                  Yes, the Copenhagen Interpretation has problems that are becoming more evident as work proceeds with high energy particle accelerators. Like all theories or models, and the CI is a model, they are or at least should be open to modification. You are correct that at the quantum level, especially within the atom the wave properties of the electron must be the dominant view. There is no way to accommodate the Pauli Exclusion principal if you stick to the particle perspective.
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        • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 1 month ago
          One of the interpretations of the Heisenberg uncertainty principal is that the act of observing affects the thing being observed. In classical physics one can think in terms of a micrometer altering the dimensions of the thing being measured because it touches and therefore slightly deforms the object being measured. In the case of quantum physics knowing something accurately collapses the probability distribution of the thing you discover. This occurs regardless of how one comes by the information. This has some profound implications including conjugate pair entanglement. It would appear that reality is vastly more complex than even our most sophisticated models would indicate.
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          • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
            Mental "models" are not reality and not awareness of it. The subjectivist model mentality leads to all kinds of floating abstractions and nonsense, including reifying abstractions like probability and claims that knowing something changes the thing you know regardless of how you know it. It is bad philosophy, not science.
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            • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 1 month ago
              "Mental "models" are not reality and not awareness of it." That is precisely the point. Models provide a way to think about something. To the extent that they point a way to gain more information they are useful but they should not be confused with "reality". They may bear a useful relationship to reality but in and of them selves they are, at best, partial analogs of the underlying mechanism that produces what we are able to observe.
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              • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
                Attempting to reduce scientific thinking to "models" under the Pragmatist mantra of "useful" is bad epistemology, with the expected consequences that you repeat in non-answers to posts on Objectivist epistemology. You can't "think about something" that isn't an awareness of it.

                You claimed "that scientists 'understand' reality in terms of models and that most of these models are behavioral rather than existential. By this I mean that these models describe how things behave not what things are" and "It may be that the question 'what is it?' is meaningless and the only valid question is 'what does it do?'"

                That is not science, it is what some people echo from the conventional bad Kantian philosophy. Repeating conventional, stale bromides is not an answer to Ayn Rand.
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                • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 1 month ago
                  You're presenting a denial of a key attribute of man. That being his ability to manipulate his environment to solve his life's needs. Man as he exists, has only 5 senses limited to ranges that results in aspects of reality that effect his life that are not directly perceptible. But man also has the ability to reason from what he can sense directly, that for every effect there must be a cause. Man cannot 'see' the infra-red spectrum of sunlight that sunburns his skin, but he can see the burns. He can know from what he can observe that hot things and heat burns as well as witness that really hot things and fire produce light and can then reason that there is something in sunlight that can burn. From that reasoning, he can then 'invent', using already known components and concepts, instruments that can detect more aspects of sunlight than he's able to directly observe. And from there, invent ways to prevent sunburn.

                  To get there, he had to 'model' what he couldn't directly perceive with his senses, and from that 'model' invent both the means and the experiments to determine the 'cause' of the effect that he knew happened to him, and must exist by reason. There are countless examples of this throughout the history of mankind.

                  Einstein utilized 'mental models' exclusively to provide his theories that explained various phenomena that were effects of not directly observable causes. That led to a hundred years of examination, invention, and experiments to prove/disprove the predictions of those 'models', and countless improvements of mankind's understanding of the Universe. It's also pointed to many other things to be identified, conceptualized, 'modeled'/theorized, examined/experimented, invented, and knowledge of gained.

                  This is science. This is man's uniqueness over all other known life.
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                  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
                    The "model" mentality is not science. I did not deny man's "ability to manipulate his environment to solve his life's needs" or that he "has only 5 senses limited" to what they are. Please don't make things up. I did not say anything remotely like that. It is the opposite of what we know and the opposite of Ayn Rand's philosophy.

                    We think in concepts to expand knowledge beyond the perceptual level. The hierarchy of concepts is based on perception. That has already been discussed in this thread. The thread links to the first chapter of Ayn Rand's Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, which book cannot be ignored for this discussion, but is being replaced here by conventional academic slogans about "models".

                    Thinking in concepts is not the "model" mentality concocting mental images in parallel with a reality in which you can't ask "what is it", only imagine "models" that are somehow "useful" in "behavior". That is thoroughly Kantian, of the Pragmatist variety. It is not Objectivism. It is not and does not explain knowledge of the world, including science. Concepts are our means of grasping reality, not "modeling" it inside a subjective universe.

                    This could not be clearer in Objectivist epistemology (or Aristotle's), which shows what concepts are and how they are formed, in particular higher level abstract concepts. Ayn Rand's philosophy does not mean echoing Kant in the name of "reason". Rejecting the conventional bad epistemology does not mean denying man's nature and science, proclaimed in dramatic accusations employing floating abstractions with terminology stolen from Objectivism.
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                    • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 1 month ago
                      ewv; I think I get what you're arguing for, but it strikes me that you're jumping from a percept to a concept without trying to understand or include the process in between. I agree that many theoretical scientists take their 'models' beyond the necessary limits and constraints. But I think that the 'modeling' or theorizing to develop what can be applied to an experiment and measurement is an extremely important part of getting to concept and integration.

                      Without that step, I doubt we would have progressed in our understanding and knowledge of our Universe, much less our environmental reality.

                      Those thoughts are not Kantian, nor do they represent 'floating abstractions with terminology "stolen" from Objectivism'. Maybe we're discussing more the definition of 'knowledge' and how we obtain or integrate it, or the limits of what our knowledge can be at a certain point in time or development.

                      Are we seeking perfect knowledge similar to db's example of perfect competition in economics or are we seeking knowledge of reality through the best tools we know at this point understanding constraints and limitations and open to additions or subtractions as the process is carried out?
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                      • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
                        I have not jumped from perception to concepts without understanding the process. The whole book that is the subject of this thread is about how concepts are formed -- not just first level concepts from perception, but the crucial process of forming higher level concepts in a hierarchy of abstractions from abstractions that are necessary for conceptual knowledge, especially science. Those who have read the book can discuss it here, but it can't be repeated in a post.

                        It is not about so-called 'perfect knowledge' by the false standard of omniscience. Knowledge is contextual and objective, not intrinsic or subjective.

                        More fundamental than the process of concept formation itself is the principle of knowledge as understanding of reality versus Kantian subjectivism holding that our mental processing is about a phenomenal world locked in our heads, not an understanding of the world that is declared to be unknowable. That is what Pragmatism and Positivism came from and is what the "model" mentality is: mental images locked in our heads struggling to be in parallel with an unknowable reality in some "pragmatic" way that is "useful".

                        The form this took in philosophy of science, "Operationalism", has spread everywhere. It has the gall to claim a monopoly on experiment and evidence, as if any other epistemology must by meaningless "metaphysics". In that it is a combination of Hume's radical empiricism of knowledge without concepts versus the Rationalists concepts without reality, synthesized into Kant. When you read that the meaning and definition of a concept in physics is "how you measure it" -- such as "there is no such thing as an electron, only ammeters" and that you only have an electron "model" in your head -- that is Operationalism.

                        The notion of cognitive methods as "tools" that "work", without concepts and principles, with meaning as "whatever works" "open" to change to anything, and truth as "what is true today may not be tomorrow", is full-blown Pragmatism.

                        Listen to Leonard Peikoff's lecture series on the history of philosophy, noting especially for this topic how it resulted in Kant, Positivism and Pragmatism. For Ayn Rand's alternative in epistemology listen to his lecture series on Objectivism and read Ayn Rand's Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology (for the theory of concepts) and the first five chapters of Leonard Peikoff's Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand (for the broader metaphysics and epistemology). The appendix to IOE on Ayn Rand's workshops on epistemology includes a section discussing implications for philosophy of science, but that is not the place to start.
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                  • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 1 month ago
                    You have to be very careful with the model analogy. Ptolemy's epicycles were a model and very good at predicting the future, but there were not science or physics.

                    In engineering we created heuristic models all the time for systems that were too complex to analyze from first principles, but we were never confused that we were explaining how the system worked, we were just modeling it.
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                    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
                      An engineering model such as a wind tunnel, a circuit, or a computational computer model (or simplified hand calculation) is, like a map depicting only certain features regarded as essential for a particular purpose, worthless without conceptual understanding of its meaning and limitations in accordance with principles of science and engineering. It is not the "model" mentality in theoretical physics, which elevates the fallacy of the stolen concept to the grand larceny of knowledge as such with Kantian subjectivism.

                      When someone tells you that something is true in your engineering model but not for the actual device you know what that means. But now consider what it means for the "model" mentality to tell you that something you say is "only true in your model", with actual "truth" meaning whatever "works" for someone's subjective purpose in a world that cannot be known as it is "really is". It's the shear evil of Kantianism.
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                    • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 1 month ago
                      Dale, I understand that perfectly. The ability to analyze the output against the input and from that to develop an explanation of what was occurring in that component of the control system without actually seeing the internals. And we all understood, or we should have, that it was 'only a model', maybe just an approximation; but it allowed us to progress, within limits, without having to stop at the 'black box' before we could understand, predict, and utilize the entire system. Any able engineer has learned that concept, particularly in control system applications, and I understand and agree that some theoretical scientist, particularly in physics and politics and social science (vodoo), have not and don't fully grasp the limits or constraints of 'models'. Reminds me a little bit of your 'perfect competition' example in economic analysis.

                      Properly understood, constrained, and limited models are necessary to proper development of concepts and the progress of science.
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                  • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 1 month ago
                    Yes, exactly, that is the point I have been trying to make.
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                    • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 1 month ago
                      I understand Prof. Somewhere along the way we've gotten hung up in semantics of Science vs. something else, probably generated from the Copenhagen models. Maybe we need to go back to principles of conceptualization and integration. I'll be thinking about this.
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                      • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
                        Read IOE and listen to the Peikoff lectures on the history of philosophy and Objectivism to see the contrast with Kant, Positivism, and Pragmatism. It's not a matter of semantics and neither is the widespread indoctrination of the bad philosophy that has infiltrated the culture and the philosophy of science for a century, all dogmatically promoted with rote slogans in the name of science.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
    Without putting too fine a point on it, Rand says: "It is not an accident that man's earliest attempts at measurement ... consisted of relating things to himself -- as for instance taking the length of his foot as a standard of length, or adopting the decimal system, which is supposed to have its origin in man's ten fingers as units of counting."

    Rand equivocates with "... which is supposed to have its origin..." She may have known that that decimal system is not "natural."

    I understand the easy intuition, but the fact is that the decimal system was proposed about 1600 CE by Simon Stevin (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_S...., I know from the works of Denise Schmandt-Besserat that the Sumerians did not have more than 5=1 1 1 1 1 for thousands of years after the invention of the first clay tokens for counting.

    Moreover, the Romans counted by 12s as is evidenced by the ratios of the sestertius to the "denarius" -- admittedly "ten" but only as a debasement from 12.

    Care to comment?
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
      Ayn Rand did not equivocate on her observation that "it is not an accident that man's earliest attempts at measurement ... consisted of relating things to himself -- as for instance ... adopting the decimal system, which is supposed to have its origin in man's ten fingers as units of counting."

      She didn't diminish it as "unnatural", she included it as an example of her principle. She didn't use the word "natural" at all. What would it mean for the decimal system to be "natural" versus "unnatural"? All number systems and methods of calculating with them have to be invented; the ideas are not innate just because we have 10 fingers, but neither is conceptual thought "unnatural" to man.

      She observed that man's earliest units of measurements were related to himself because measurement allows us to expand our awareness in conceptual form to the realm beyond our direct perception through the use of a unit we can perceive and are familiar with. Our ten fingers are one such familiar unit. The decimal system did in fact originate with the number of fingers we have. There is a large history of finger and toe counting and calculating both in primitive times and in primitive societies found in more modern times. It resulted in counting in 5's, 10's and 20's. Base 10 number systems were used in ancient Egypt, Greece, and India in their progressively more sophisticated numerical records. Babylonia used both 10 and 16 simulataneously.

      But there is a big difference between consolidating numbers for mental unit economy with a specific numeral to avoid repetition of smaller units versus the decimal system we have today. That required the conceptualization of the base as opposed to just using it as a device to write numerals, the conceptualization and development of the positional (place) system for both whole numbers and fractions -- including the concept of zero and its use in this context, the open-ended size of exponents for numbers of any magnitude rather than a fixed size with the early distinct symbols for specific groupings, and development of methods of calculation based on rules for using powers of the base.

      The mathematical methods used by those early cultures for the kind of arithmetic that we regard as simple was extremely convoluted and complex by today's standards, which is one reason that algebra was slow to develop and geometrical methods were more common in theoretical mathematics. Some cultures used base 12, 16 or 60, which allowed more divisors.

      This is why Stevin is credited for today's decimal system as late as about 1600 for his advocacy of the concept of decimal fractions as part of his project to unify and systematize the entire system of measurements with a decimal base. Europeans had already been printing tables of numbers in decimal notation. The first published general theory of positional systems (including the binary system) was by Liebniz about a century later.

      But the choice of 10 as the base came from our 10 fingers in the original finger counting.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
        That is all fine and good; and I hate to see you casting your pearls. The fact remains that Base-10 did not come first. Once numbers larger than 2 or 3 were conceptualized - about 5000 BCE; by city-dwellers, not cavemen - many systems were used. You and others attribute bases 60, 16, and 12 to the Babylonians. Britain only decimilized its currency in 1971. Before that it was 12 pence to the shilling and 20 shillings to the pound. Tens had no place in the system. And that "natural" foot was divided into 12, not 10, inches, which themselves were divided by halves down to 16ths and below. The NYSE was on 32nds until the year 2000.

        All I noted was that Rand's use of the word "supposed" indicated that she was not intending a literal interpretation of the history of arithmetic, but only offering an easy example. It was technically flawed. That does not change the truth of her assertions.

        She did a lot of that, actually, taking "common knowledge" for granted in order to convey her ideas to those who were interested but uninformed. Her stories about the Dollar Sign being the initials US, and of Americans inventing the phrase "to make money" are other examples.
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
          Measurement allows us to expand our awareness in conceptual form to the realm beyond our direct perception through the use of a unit we can perceive and are familiar with. Our ten fingers are one such familiar unit, not the only one.

          Ayn Rand did not write that all systems of measurement were based on having 10 fingers. It is a fallacy to argue that other systems of measurement not being decimal somehow undermines the origin of the decimal system of numbers. All early units were selected based on what could be easily perceived and duplicated as a standard, such as the "foot". See Klein, The Science of Measurement: A Historical Survey, which shows how complex the evolution of even simple measurements like length based on different local, perceivable standards has been.

          The decimal system of numbers did not begin in 1600 and is not "unnatural". Decimal numbers in arithmetic were in fact in common use long before English currency and other physical units were converted. American units of length and other physical units still have not been changed to metric, but the decimal system of numbers have been in continuous use. Base 10 was in fact in used in ancient Greece, Egypt and India long before that, and finger counting and calculating has used before that in primitive societies. Obviously they did not start with that because they needed concepts of smaller numbers first. That does not negate the origins of a special place for 10. There are many scholarly books on this history. It is not correct to say that the decimal system first appeared in 1600 and is "unnatural".

          Ayn Rand wrote about concept formation and its purpose in IOE. She referred to what "is supposed" by other specialists about the history of numbers without knowing the details herself. She did not "equivocate" with an unwritten private belief in decimal numbers as somehow "unnatural".
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    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
      I could not follow your link, but I looked up Stevinus and found him interesting. Base-10 math is a lot older than Stevinus, though. The Egyptians used it (if you do not mind occasionally using pictures of toads for numbers) http://discoveringegypt.com/egyptian-.... What we think of as base 10 place-value system was used by Hindu mathematicians in about the 4th C AD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E.... The Bablyonians counted base-12 and many other lands retained some of their traditions, as we do with the degrees in a circle and hours of the day - both of which are base 12. That does not mean that we do not use a decimal system for other calculations, though.

      Jan
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
        See my comment to dhalling just above.
        (https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...)

        Stevinus was like Copernicus in that he advocated for a system known to others, but not used widely in his own time. 12 pence to the shilling; 20 shillings to the pound. Even though Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton disagreed on much, they agreed on the need for a decimal currency - but they got the quarter dollar, not the fifth because that was a convenient "two bits" i.e., two Spanish reales. The real was an eighth of a crown or Spanish dollar, not a tenth, of course.

        Similarly, the Hindus developed 10s after thousands of years of other counting methods. That Stevinus had to write a book to advocate for decimal arithmetic only underscores how incompletely "Arabic numerals" were integrated into our common conceptualizations of quantity.
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        • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
          Very interesting posts (read both). I am not sure on the derivation of minos (need to look that up since my prior info on it leads in another direction, but it is not unlikely that one meaning is a spinoff of the other).

          I appreciate your pointing out Stevinus to me.

          I will add that the earliest measuring systems (Sumerian/Akkadian) had a different method of measuring each type of thing. I include this list (from Wikipedia) for your diversion:


          Sexagesimal System S used to count slaves, animals, fish, wooden objects, stone objects, containers.
          Sexagesimal System S' used to count dead animals, certain types of beer
          Bi-Sexagesimal System B used to count cereal, bread, fish, milk products
          Bi-Sexagesimal System B used to count rations
          GAN2 System G used to count field measurement
          ŠE system Š used to count barley by volume
          ŠE system Š' used to count malt by volume
          ŠE system Š" used to count wheat by volume
          ŠE System Š
          used to count barley groats
          EN System E used to count weight
          U4 System U used to count calendrics
          DUGb System Db used to count milk by volume
          DUGc System Db used to count beer by volume

          Jan
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          • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
            Modern Japanese also retains different indicators for counting different objects. Leaves are counted differently than sticks.

            I should have known about the Wikipedia entry.

            I have Denise Schmandt-Besserat's books.
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            • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
              I did not know that - good to note that apparently the base instinct in our human language module is 'personalized counting uniqueness' as opposed to 'abstract counting'.

              I happened to be rereading a book last night on Proto-IndoEuropean linguistics and migrattions (and genetics - yum!) and the first few chapters used the PIE word for 'hundred' as an example of regressing a set of modern words to a proposed PIE root."k'mtom". As an aside, the book mentioned that PIE and its daughter languages all had words for 10, 100, 1000, etc, and so evidently used base 10 for counting.

              I did not know Denise Schmandt-Besserat, but now have looked her up. Do you have When Writing Met Art? Would you recommend it?

              Interesting conversation. Thank you.

              Jan
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              • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
                Yes, I have When Writing Met Art and I recommend it highly.

                For PIE and IE shatam languages are to the east and "kentum" languages were to the west.

                I did not know that IE languages were special in 10, 100, 1000. I do think it interesting that they all borrowed "seven" from the Semitic.

                If you know IE or PIE, then you may know that the word "number" comes from "name bearer." Naming quantities was special. The name of quantities had its own name.
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                • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
                  I was not able to find any more info on "number" being "name bearer" - I found "num" (to sort or count) as its PIE origin. Interesting about the loan of 'seven'...one wonders what the pre-Semitic PIE word for seven was...

                  I have bought When Writing Met Art. I am looking forward to reading it.

                  Jan
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                  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
                    It might have been a professor who told me verbally that "number" < "name-bearer"; and I could not find anything on it now, either. I am out of town right now and cannot do much more, but I can accept that the assertion is false. I apologize for the dead end.

                    I noticed that you wrote "have bought." That is a post-modern construction from urban American English ("Blinglish" or "Ebonics" unless you have a better name for it). They over-emphasis the past: "I had gone to the store." for "I went to the store." Languages change. By standard high school grammar of the 1950s, your "have bought" implies that you bought one now and perhaps will continue to buy more in the future.
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                    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
                      Yes there is an implication of finality in the simple past vs the present perfect. 'The buying of books' is an ongoing process and as much as I am enjoying When Writing Met Art I may indeed buy more of Denise Schmandt-Besserat's books in the future. (I also have some friends who I think would enjoy them.)

                      I am coming down with 'what is going around' and I stayed up later than I had intended last night reading WWMA. Fascinating info and illos - wallow, wallow.

                      Jan
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                      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
                        Good to hear. I found Vol 1 of Before Writing at a used book store. All I need now is vol 2. (Also,she has a children's book on the subject: The History of Counting (Goodreads here: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93... I need that. In fact, I should find it an review it for this audience, considering that Objectivists understand how important it is to give children good cognitive development.)
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
          You are confusing units of money with the system of numbers for arithmetic. The use of base 10 in number systems (along with others) does not mean there was no need for fractions with different denominators, which does not in turn negate Ayn Rand's point on the early choices for many kinds of units.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 1 month ago
      The decimal appears to have roots in our digits. I think that is based in nature, so I would say it is natural.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
        Everything real is natural. The Babylonians who followed the Sumerians were pretty good at number theory. They used base-60. Base-10 came later.

        The ancient Greeks counted by ones to ten, then by tens to one hundred. But that came thousands of years later.

        At the same time, however, the Greeks did not have a decimal monetary system. Everything was by halves and thirds (and thirds and halves of those). That continued into the 19th century: the German thaler was divided into 12ths. The Spanish dollar was divided into eighths.

        The "foot" and "span" etc., speak to the human body as a standard of measurement. Literally, the word for "weight" was also the word for "king" -- mina, minos. "Worth his weight in gold," we still say. Even among the ancient Greeks, the mina was divided into 60 drachma.

        (The innovator, Peisistratos, tyrant of Athens, solved a debt crisis by legally redefining the mina to 100 drachmas, thereby reducing the drachmon and allowing debtors to pay the old obligations with the new measure. He was wildly popular with the common folk.)
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
          You denied that a base 10 system is "natural" and continue to deny the history of numbers and counting beginning with using our 10 fingers.
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          • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
            Of course Base-10 is "natural." Everything real is natural. Base-57 would also be "natural." I want to get past the implicit fallacy that Base-10 is intrinsic or intuitive. I know that Ayn Rand would never assert that. That is why she used the word "probable." Her day was only 24 hours long; she could not investigate everything, but she obviously had an insight about the inherent problem of how numbering came about.

            All indications are that we did not begin counting on our ten fingers. Base-10, positional arithmetic, and all the rest are the result of a long and arduous journey of discovery and invention.
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            • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
              You wrote: "Rand equivocates with '... which is supposed to have its origin...' She may have known that that decimal system is not 'natural'." Now you say "Of course Base-10 is 'natural'." You contradicted yourself, and now add that "everything real is natural". What does it mean to say base 10 numbers are "real"? It is a method, not a part of physical reality. You brought up the notions of the decimal system being "natural" or "unnatural", not Ayn Rand or anyone else.

              She did not use the terms 'natural' or 'probable' at all, nor did she or anyone in this discussion use the terms "intrinsic" or "intuitive". There is no "implicit fallacy" there for you to "get past".

              And Ayn Rand did not equivocate: She did not "obviously have an insight about the inherent problem of how numbering came about." She used it as an example of man relating early measurement to himself in a perfectly good brief discussion of how measurement and concepts are the means of extending knowledge beyond the perceptual level.

              The decimal system did in fact arise out of 10 fingers on a hand. Your claim that it was proposed in 1600 is not true. There is a long history of finger counting in 10s going back thousands of years BC. Ayn Rand did not say that the full modern mathematical formulation sprung out of primitives in their first counting, nor was that necessary to count in tens as the historical origins of what became the decimal system as opposed to some other numerical base.
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              • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
                You are right. It was my mistake. She wrote, "... which is supposed to have its origin..." Supposed, not probable, was the hedge.

                I cited the best expert on the origins of writing. Literacy developed out of numeracy. Counting came first. And it did not begin on fingers.
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                • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
                  As has been said before, the first counting began with only 2 and 3. Counting on fingers came later. Finger counting with the ten fingers led to the base 10 number system a few thousand years BC. It didn't start in 1600. Ayn Rand did not "hedge", did not write or regard the decimal system as "unnatural", "intrinsic", or "intuitive". She said what she knew and was right. I think this is all very straightforward.
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                  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
                    Yes, I was the one who pointed out that counting was limited to one... two... many until the Sumerians invented little clay tokens from which, over thousands of years, big numbers such as 4, 5, and 6 developed.

                    In this discussion, I put the word "natural" in quotes because it is too easy to accept ambiguously, equivocally, or colloquially. Is homosexuality natural? No more or less than Base-10. It depends on what you mean by "natural." Homosexual behavior and transgendering is found among animals. Base-10 is not. Social organization is "natural" but the Constitution of the United States is not. However, that is not to claim that the Constitution is "unnatural."

                    Ayn Rand said that Base-10 was "supposed" to have its origin in our digits because it was easy to accept, but she did not say "is known" or "certainly" or "must have." She was too deep and perceptive a thinker for that. In the same light, she was not sold on Darwinian evolution. Obviously, she did not believe that God did it in one day, but neither did she accept unquestioningly Darwin's uniformitarian theory of speciation.

                    You go to great lengths to defend the literal truth of the canonic works of Ayn Rand. I am always impressed by how integrated is your knowledge of Objectivism.

                    So, let me ask you: If it is natural that we use ourselves as the units of measure, why did she argue against Protagoras's "Man is the measure of all things?" She called that subjectivism.
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