A phony STEM shortage and the scandal of engineering visas -- how American jobs get outsourced

Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 1 month ago to Business
70 comments | Share | Flag

I can say there is probably a lot of truth here. So, is it Objectivistfor a business to use the system, or manipulate it, to be able to pull in people willing to work at lower wages and the lay off their American employees? I can see both sides to the argument, but I am curious how the Gulch looks at this.
SOURCE URL: http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-the-scandal-of-engineering-visas-20160226-column.html


Add Comment

FORMATTING HELP

All Comments Hide marked as read Mark all as read

  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 1 month ago
    This is not an economic issue, it is a moral issue. Ask yourself, "Is this the kind of thing Hank Reardon would do?" Just as a worker has a moral obligation to his employer to do the best job he can for his benefits, so does an employer have a moral obligation to be fair to loyal employees regardless of strictly monetary savings. There are, of course, caveats to this in which the employer's company is financially challenged and the choice becomes that of solvency. And also the possible lack of cooperation between employees and employer. Still in terms of moral values, what does this tell you about Disney? If we can believe the testimony, the benevolent images projected by Disney to the public is false and two-faced. And by the way, it also shows how laws are written stupidly without looking at all the ways a law can be used.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 1 month ago
      after 30 years of working with an employer who seemed
      to be loyal in exchange for my loyalty, there came down
      a statement about "at-will" employment. . the change,
      from a new group of managers, was intended to be a
      threat to the employees. . it meant "we can terminate
      your employment without any reason, at any time,"
      and I took it to heart. . always working my ass off, I made
      careful plans and retired soon. . "at will" goes both ways. -- j
      .
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 1 month ago
        You betcha.
        What a number of employees often forget is that they should always prepare themselves for every contingency. Even a well meaning employer may have to cut back or close his doors. In my case, at the end of my lease, the landlord raised the rent considerably, and also put into the lease various changes to the store façade and a new very expensive sign. That, coupled with digital photography coming in a few years caused us to hustle up a going out of business sale. Luckily by then, we only had part-time kids working for us as our margin got so tight we couldn't afford full-timers.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 1 month ago
          Yes. As an employee you are selling your talents by the hour effectively. That is your are selling on a time basis at fixed rate to someone who wants/needs those talents. In a way you are literally selling the hours of your life. It is not the best or safest or most lucrative way to make a living. When the arrangement does not make sense to either party compared to alternatives they are free to end it. There is nothing immoral about doing so if the decision is fully rational.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 1 month ago
            and we are having such fun in retirement! . no clock
            to punch, and fewer a$$es to kiss. . if I am tired, I can
            go and take a nap. . if I want, I can go for a walk, or
            sit and throw things at the tv news in the afternoon,
            or take my sexy wife out for lunch. . it's Wonderful !!! -- j
            .
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
              Unfortunately my wife has 6 horses, so I am condemned to work forever. We also have a large ranch property to sell and it is barely at the break even point. So off I go...
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 1 month ago
                I shod horses in a former life. . whatta fun thing! . one
                thought that I was a stool and sat on me. . one had
                foundered front feet and was a real challenge. . one
                mare was the smartest of the bunch, and had perfect
                feet ....... farrier in my spare time, and midnight feeder,
                caretaker and icebreaker! -- j
                .
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
                  Wow! We go through the feet thing regulalry, we have one Appy mare who constantly gets abscesses even when she has not even been on rough ground or anything. We have gotten real good at poultices, wraps and getting them to break,, luckily have not had one in a couple months now...
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 1 month ago
            The way we worked things was when business was booming and we were expanding, we had certain employees who had greater responsibilities than others. We put them on a salary plus bonus set-up. When business declined we were happy to note that the references and teaching we had given them got them good jobs elsewhere.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 1 month ago
          gotcha. . in my case, it was the reductions associated
          with the demise of the nuc weapons stockpile. . DOE was --
          and still is -- playing games with people money versus
          facility money. . they have even cut our retirement health plan,
          plus there's been no COLA for more than ten years. -- j
          .
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 1 month ago
      Hank Rearden would do whatever was best for his business, for producing the values he wished to produce and would do so without over concern over whether a work had been with him a long time or not. As would be correct. An employee is selling his/her talent on a time basis for a fixed price (modulo stock options etc). If the employer can get the same or better talent for less + the cost of the change then rationally they should consider it. However the entire premise of the OP is wrong.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 1 month ago
        Not a matter of time, but of ability and dedication. An employee should be evaluated based not on time put in, but of quality of effort. An employee who puts out good work is always an asset and should be treated as such by an astute employer. Then, the next consideration is loyalty. Hiring and training a newbie is costly and in many cases takes 6 months to 2 years depending on the complexity of the job. If quality of performance is not an issue, then quality of output is in question.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
          All true, and my employer exhorts it. Unfortunately, I can attest that some (stress some) managers are incapable of generating the interest or concern to actually review and employees performance relative to their job. It means you actually have to do some research and go to the point of activity to know what is average and above average, otherwise it becomes a bragging society, which is a pretty standard way business work. Just MHO.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
        Again, I am not against the free exchange of workers and employers, I just do not think the government should be manipulated into encouraging it. It creates an artificial environment as well as a disposable ethic that reduces the relationship between worker and employer. There has to be some trust between the two. It also encourages lazy and craoppy management. Why fix your broken process when you can hire a cheapo dude to keep pounding it? Management rarely tries to cut costs through process improvement, I have had personal experience in trying to bring that idea forward. That is why Lean 6 Sigma is a hot area to get certified in, as companies just want to hire a consultant to come give answers they could find for themselves.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 1 month ago
      I don't know of any employer that will be in a hurry to get rid of a known quantity good worker fully up to speed in their organization just to save a bit of money. Not unless it is a commodity job or the worker is part of a union jacking up rates and restrictions beyond reason and seldom even then. Hiring is hard. Mistakes can be made. A known good worker is not let go lightly.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 1 month ago
    ""overall, our colleges and universities graduate twice the number of STEM graduates as find a job each year."
    There is not a fixed number of jobs of any sort. Jobs are just people helping one another. The more people working out creative new ways to use technology to solve human problems the better.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
      Yes, this is a forum for Ayn Rand's ideas, not fixed pie stagnation and conservative statism. Ayn Rand adamantly opposed government force employed to "protect" anyone's claimed economic self interest. The economy grows from individual productive effort and creativity in a free society.

      This country is not supposed to be nationalistic guild socialism or the latest equivalent forced unionism. As individualists we do not lump people into "classes" by who has a "right" to what job and who is excluded. This isn't the international version of a caste society.

      Individuals have a natural right to contract with others regardless of what country they are from. They have that right because of their nature as human beings, not what country they were born in. The right isn't a gift from government, to be "protected" against others who want to compete but who are allowed to only by government permission, which the nationalists and demagogic Trump 'jobs mercantilists' want to deny.

      "Graduating in STEM" says nothing about what a person is capable of doing or how motivated he is or for what. A large portion of people in any field do not wind up pursing a career in the subject in which they were formally trained. And there are those in any field who expect to be given a job of their choosing by entitlement, having gone through what they are told are formal requirements, then expecting to sit on a job regardless of who can do it better or more efficiently. Most foreign workers are not better than Americans, but the small number of those ambitious enough to make themselves better and come to this country are better than any average.

      The corruption in the H1 visa program is that individuals are made dependent on bureaucracy and corporate influence because it is so difficult for an individual to contend on his own with the immigration bureaucracy and the entrenched government restrictions. That is what allows the corporate cronies to manipulate the system to bring in people who may or may not be better but in the form of indentured servants made dependent on the corporations and a corrupt system. As usual, the solution to problems caused by statism are not solved by making it more statist.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
        Thank you, I agree with your position, I would say though that the natural relationship one on one has been corrupted by both politics and elitism. It used to be you could go from technician to engineer in a major electronics manufacturer, yet today, you must have a Bachelors in a science, and then you are expected to quickly have a Masters and on. This "closed" door has resulted in the whole need for any kind of visa program.We have a lot of smart people, who for one reason or another, chose not to go to college, or went to work right away and have amassed a huge amount of knowledge and skill that is far beyond what a degree may, or may not provide. Some of the article addressed that, and, to me, shows this "excuse" they use. The market should dictate wages, and value, but I think the use of people imported world wide just because they have a lower market standard there, is disruptive. What encouragement is there to go to work as an engineer, when you are under a risk that your company will import someone just because they will take less. I find that most of those imported quickly realize what is happening, and use it to just get an anchor set here, then either demand a significant raise, or move on.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
          There have always been companies, mostly large corporations, which are so political that they treat employees badly or which because of financial circumstances can't do better what they would like to. You go into engineering (or anything else) because that is what you want to do, and then find (or perhaps ultimately create) a company to work for. Nothing lasts forever and you probably have to change companies along the way, learning to be wary of the biggest ones and other pitfalls. None of this is new and it didn't start with immigration politics.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
            I also agree with that, but I also see totally uninformed managers making crazy decisions in order to answer the call to cut costs, and this seems so applicable. I have also seen it in action, and I can testify that it ends up with brute force engineering being applied. These guys bring very little to the table but a gegree and some knowledge. There are a few bright lightbulbs, but not a lot. I have had to work with them, and they can be told "you can do this this way because" and a day later they do it again.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 1 month ago
    Nick, this information makes it even more obvious
    that the people whose backgrounds are easily researched
    and, thus, those who can carry clearances readily, are
    at a premium in certain industries. . your career in the
    navy and mine in the manhattan project naturally have
    resistance to imported talent. . others aren't so fortunate.

    the world is a much smaller place than it was when
    I was growing up, choosing between electrical and
    mechanical engineering. . many of my friends didn't
    choose science-based futures, and there are those
    who wish they had. . but now, even that "best" choice
    is threatened. . it means that personal excellence
    is worth far more than it was, then. . WoW. -- j
    .
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
      True John. My current job is in this bucket though, although I have made sure I extend my fingers into as much as I can to try to make it less likely. But I see a lot of it.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by jetmec 8 years, 1 month ago
    Here's one to think about, There are more people flying than ever before, There's more aircraft about, But there is a dag lack of aircraft maintenance jobs about and the rate some pay is less than it was ten years ago, I know a lot of work is done by China and some of the Eastern European counties, I know one well known airline that has its major checks done in China then dos a lesser check at it's home base to put right the work! Some things can be outsourced but not everything and not things to do with safety
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
      Until a plane falls out of the sky, 300 people are killed, and the investigation then demands blame. Either a bunch of money is then spread to cool the fire, or a group of senior manager move to another company to repeat the process. Those actions are just skirting the law that had to be created just to prevent that type of thing. One reason (besides the cattle car syndrome), I fly as little as possible.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by jetmec 8 years, 1 month ago
        Yes there are laws about this, But a lot of company's get round them, especially the low budget ones
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
          In all kinds of ways. Remember the Taiwanese plane that crashed because when an engine failed, they cut the remaining good one? Lack of training and skill and experience, the lowest common denominator.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
            Also, look at the plane that ripped it's tail off in SF. They had no idea how to really land it, they had been trained to rely on the autopilot, and when presented with a real issue, flew it into the ground.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 1 month ago
    Besides what might lurk in the shadows of this; I think we can definitely point to the lack of patronage to the American worker, of which these companies would of never been successful, to the push for "Globalization" without any loyalty to any country.
    However, that may have been a survival tactic because of the threatening chaos so prevalent in the past 30 plus years.

    To be honest...I've no idea how Rand would have view it.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
      Ayn Rand rejected government protectionism of jobs or any other economic transactions. No one has a right to use the force of government on behalf of what he claims is his economic self interest. Regarding foreign workers, individuals have natural rights in accordance with their nature as human beings, not nationalism.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
        Indeed, but you now end up with a mix of government interferance, and importation of what could be economic slave labor. Believe me, the slaves do wake up within a couple of years, then the company goes fishing again. This is not a valid way to grow your own society, as you keep adding more slaves to the mix.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 1 month ago
          It isn't as bad as slaves. The government interference is all over the place, not just in immigration politics. We have a mixed economy part free and part statist, with the politics becoming worse. It hasn't stopped highly motivated people from living and growing, but success is not the default position -- it takes effort and the freedom to do it -- and even the possibility is diminished as the scope and intensity of force by government interference becomes worse. Along with the mixed economy, success is also more mixed: some people succeed better than others while some are squashed because the effects of government force are not uniform across the population. It depends on what and who they go after, consciously or not.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
            I agree, the slave part is just a reference to trying to buy the same level of expertise by finding them in another country. I do not believe that we have any shortage here, I think this is a manipulation, and the story is being strategically spread to ensure the policy does not arouse huge response. Business wants to cut costs, and I believe you will find a lot of campaign money tied up in all this.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 1 month ago
    It's interesting the number of liberal media organizations which argue for a "path to citizenship" for low skilled people who entered the country illegally, but do not want high skilled people to be able to legally come to the country. I guess it just depends on whose job you are taking.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 1 month ago
      Yes, I never understood the reason we would challenge smart, well-educated people staying in the US. When I was in graduate school, Chinese students were scared to go home, and graduating PhDs often couldn't get visas. Why?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 1 month ago
      A job is not property. It is a temporary voluntary trading relationship.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
        That is true, and both parties though should have some obligation to the other. One thing I have seen managers who have no clue what they are doing do, is get rid of the senior people and replace them with imports, then start firing any other managers or engineers when the factory implodes because all the expertise was tossed. The managers making the decisions rarely have any specific knowledge of what the real things are needed to do the job. A degree does not impart knowledge.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 1 month ago
          It's called the free market. One of the ways you find out how things should be done is some idiot screws up, damages or destroys his company and you learn from it.

          I do think that modern business is too short sighted. I'm not sure what to do about that. The only solution I have is in the area of tax policy -- which is certainly not an objectivist approach!

          I would suggest that the holding period for long term capital gains be raised to 5 years. That would make people think longer term than the next quarter.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
            I question whether the free market is the same free market we used to speak of. There is so much government interference, designed to make the free market pay tribute to get what they want, that it is a spinning dervish that feeds upon itself, and technology and communications has just increased the speed. Were it a purely free market, we would not have CEOs who blatantly fail, get kicked out with millions of dollars in parachute silk, at the cost to the shareholders and customers (like Home Depot). There are way to many wandering souls who hitch themselves to companies, and then move on in an endless cycle upping their "value".
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 1 month ago
      You may have hit the nail on the head with: I guess it just depends on whose job you are taking.

      The kakistocracy and everything connected to it hate us as it hates itself.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 1 month ago
    "overall, our colleges and universities graduate twice the number of STEM graduates as find a job each year."
    How capable are the graduates? Does graduation equate to competence?

    "a growing number of PhDs are in jobs that do not take advantage of the taxpayers’ investment in their lengthy education."
    What taxpayers? Why are taxpayers investing in higher education of individuals at all?

    I think the H-1B visa program is a scam to benefit companies with "pull", that is, able to buy the votes of con-gress. I would cancel all H-1B visas that were hired to replace citizens that were laid off, and I would terminate the program immediately, and deport every H-1B visa recipient except those holding positions that cannot be filled by American citizens. I would jail the CEOs of the companies who made contributions to politicians voting for the program and who head companies employing H-1B visa holders instead of competent American citizens.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 1 month ago
      So you want to jail the CEO's of companies that made legal contributions to politicians who voted for a policy they agreed with?

      You sound like my far left friends who want to incarcerate the people they disagree with.

      So is it freedom for all who agree with me?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 1 month ago
        no just make the contributions illegal if they are outside the area of geo-political interest. President whole nation.Senator/Representative whole state the one of residence where the CEO votes. Same with in state offices. ditto down the line. Preserves free speech and free elections which by the way is not guaranteed.

        Only those who MAY vote MAY contribute and the contribution must be used in the same area of geo-political interest.

        Soft Money and vote buying solved in one sentence

        Never happen people like being bought and sold and their votes. .
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 1 month ago
          So just to be clear, you think that from an objectivist point of view that the government should use force to prevent someone from giving money to another person to allow them to buy ads because they think it is in their best interest?

          What right does the government have to tell us who we can support?
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
            I am leaning with Michael, just because I think you reach a point where the differing laws we have no input on (foriegn countries) cause different economic realities. To say we should be a worldwide job market, hiring the lowest bidder, and then circumventing the immigration rules to allow that, is very much government manipulation, and is paid for by those companies. You really believe that the SC voted to allow companies to be people and donate as much as they want because it was constitutional? I don't. It was bought and paid for.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 1 month ago
              If the solution to government interference in the marketplace is government interference in free speech and who one can voluntarily support I'd suggest we look for a better answer.

              You don't get more freedom by accepting less.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
                Oh, I agree William, my point is this has grown over many, many ages. Going back to Standard Oil and monopoly/antitrust law. It has just kept getting fed by more and more special interests. That is why the law is basically an insane mess, with contradictions, vagueness and outright special rules for special people. It would be a mess to untangle and a mess to continue.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 1 month ago
        Punish those who (a) use money/power/perks to corrupt government and (b)use that to loot from others.
        Some CEOs of large companies have come to the conclusion they can use government to loot others without fear of any punishment other than a slap on the hand government fine (which only rewards other looters.) If these looters are not punished they will repeat the offense and others with marginal ethics will be encouraged to loot as well.
        Why are you defending them, WS?
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 1 month ago
          Because one of the major principles of law is that you should have a chance to know that what you are doing is illegal. In the example you give, you wish to incarcerate people who clearly broke no law, just did something in their own best interest which you found to be insufficiently altruistic.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 1 month ago
            What I wrote was easy to misunderstand, WS.
            I do not suggest that people acting in good faith under law be imprisoned, but that the laws must be changed to punish unethical behavior.
            You are not talking to a liberal looter who has altruism as his banner to hide his statist goals.

            Choosing not to loot is not altruism; its ethical behavior. Pursuit of self interest is no more a defense of unethical behavior than altruism is a defense for unethical behavior.
            Unethical behavior in pursuit of self interest is still unethical behavior.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 1 month ago
              As long as you change the laws before you incarcerate people for breaking them!

              I will say that the 'looting' here is the ability to hire qualified employees who willingly accept your offer in order to come to the U.S. That doesn't actually sound unethical to me.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 1 month ago
                I think that the government should not be used to force the transfer of assets of some of its citizens to other entities. When this cronyism is implemented by one entity for his own benefit at the expense of others, it is unethical behavior.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
            William, I am fairly sure these people know exactly what they are doing, and also that the law is specifically written (and paid for by them) to accomplish it. It is not the Lilly white "we need smart people and Americans are dumb" or the "they want too much money and we have to cut costs". Rarely do I see them importing managers, we seem to have an overabundance of their like. Maybe that is part of the problem...
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 1 month ago
      That is not because of not enough jobs in many industries such as software. It is because a lot of the graduates flunk out of interviews that attempt to see if they can actually produce results. I have interviewed far too many CS graduates that couldn't demonstrate they could code even the simplest of things at a whiteboard.

      I have lost excellent team members because of how tight the H-1B program is. People that are some of the best I have worked with in my long career. Some very successful Silicon Valley entrepreneurs came here on H-1B visas and then became citizens. Being a citizen doesn't quality anyone for squat. Either you can do the work or you cannot. Generally a company would much rather hire a full time worker who does not have any visa restrictions and hassles given the choice of an equally capable worker.

      Apparently you do not believe in a free market. Sad.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 1 month ago
        Guess you missed the word "competent" in my tirade. As stated that is what I would require to "fill" a job by an American. I also questioned the validity of the graduates capabilities.
        I believe in a free market. We don't have one and corporate looters write laws to prevent it.
        Government is being used by some entities to force the transfer of assets from some of its citizens to those entities. Not a free market
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 1 month ago
    The article is pretty bogus. Quality foreign engineers have been paid the same as US born engineers in every software house I have personally worked in in 35 years in Silicon Valley. The only exception has been contractors short-changed by their contracting company for those contracting companies that specialize in ripping of minimal visa workers.

    Remember please that a "job" is not the property of some American just because it is an American company. A business exists to produce products and services that enough customers want at a price they can make a good ROI on. They do not exist to provide jobs or especially not jobs to one group over another. Employees/labor will be shopped for the best quality for price that is sufficient quality and affordable price as it should be.

    But in software in the valley the problem is actually that we often can't find good software people at any price and of any nationality in the quantity actually needed.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 1 month ago
    A book called "The Earth Is Flat" gives the whole maryann on how outsourcing worked is working and is enriching citizens of places like India while our job market is the pits

    Author doesn't take sides just lays out facts.

    We deserved what we asked for....
    and gave away the farm
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
    The easiest way to make sure that American jobs do not get outsourced is to make the people who are doing those jobs into Americans. If they are willing to work at lower wages in order not to be cast back into the country of their origin, and they have important skills, then WooHoo: win-win.

    I think that the lack of personnel for low-level jobs should be accounted for by a temp visa system (strawberries need to be picked); for people who have graduated with needed tech degrees then let's keep them here as citizens.

    Jan
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 1 month ago
      Some of the best and most productive people in Silicon Valley started on a visa.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
        Keyword: Some. How many? I have seen the issue up close and I can tell you the success rate is not that large, and then the ones that do fail wander away to join the other non documented crowd. Then they just order in another shipment, and cull the herd. Why do you think they keep wanting to up the number of visas? Not because we are in some kind of boom economy.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 1 month ago
          You could ask "how many" about home grown workers as well. Generally speaking people form Asia and India in particular have more drive and ambition to better themselves. They want to up the number of visas to have a larger pool of qualified workers.

          As free people we should be help to hire anyone we wish from anywhere in the world that we believe will do the job well. Would you deny this?
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
  • Posted by jtrikakis 8 years, 1 month ago
    This practice has been going on since the early 90s in IT. These so called "skilled worker s" aren't that skilled. They come cheap, but overall don't bring anything new. They just copy what others have done. US software developers can only do well if they become independent. There are others areas on IT where off shores play only a small role. Why? Because they no creative thinking skills. If it isn't in the admin guide they seldom can fix anything. I've been IT 25 years so I know what I'm talking about.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  

FORMATTING HELP

  • Comment hidden. Undo