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The Leonard Peikoff/David Kelley intellectual exchange

Posted by WDonway 9 years, 2 months ago to Philosophy
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Get Past Dr. Peikoff's territorial defense of his leadership of Objectivism; discover David Kelley's superb exposition of Objectivism in our lives...

Many decades ago, now, when David Kelley published his brief essay, "A question of Sanction," he expressed ideas that went to the essence of Objectivism. And he expressed those ideas with remarkable logic, eloquence, historical context, and many examples. Then, more than a decade later, in 1990, he published the book-length "The Contested Legacy of Ayn Rand." That book is work of philosophy of the first rank, addressing fundamental Objectivist ideas, supplying their historical context, and, above all, examining ideas at work in the world in the lives of individuals, Objectivist and otherwise. In one sense, it is a shame that this book, necessarily, is identified with a specific dispute, because in itself it ranks as one of the foremost expositions of Objectivism. If you have all of Ayn Rand and all of Leonard Peikoff, you can find much in this book to arrest your attention and advance your grasp of Objectivism.

In view of the discussion, here, I went back and read Leonard Peikoff's "Fact and Value," which I first read the week it came out in "The Intellectual Activist." Any Objectivist, and certainly I, can agree with 90 percent of the essay as Peikoff rolls on and on rehearsing the Objectivist epistemology and meta-ethics. It is the 10 percent or less of the essay characterizing David Kelley's view, moral condemning him, excommunicating him from Objectivism, and dismissing him and his followers as evil—simply worthless to Objectivism—I do not exaggerate, here--that stops me cold. Very cold.

I could cite ideas, judgments, as the reason—and they are at the heart of the discussion, of course. But what made me feel as though there must be more than one reality is that I did not recognize the David Kelley, in any way, in Peikoff’s characterizing. I already had been studying Objectivism since 1962, when I read “Atlas Shrugged,” and had read every work of Ayn Rand, every issue of the “Objectivist Newsletter,” attended Ford Hall Forum… and I had known David Kelley for some years and had hundreds of hours of conversation with him.
Yes, Peikoff professed to identify underlying premises and to discover new fundamental errors—and claimed to be seeing them for the first time—but his statements about Kelley’s specific views had no application.

Does that mean that nothing really was in dispute here? No, that is not true. Amidst all the mischaracterizing and condemnation, Peikoff identified a basic, enduring difference between his views and those of David Kelley. When we hear an individual’s statement of his ideas can we usually rapidly and with confidence decide if he is mistaken or intellectually dishonest, given the nature of the ideas can we conclude without further investigation that he is an evader, anti-reason, anti-reality, and evil?

Or in most cases, as Kelley argues, should we engage in dialogue, even when the ideas espoused are repugnant to us, to see if the individual is mistaken, confused, but open to reason—or, and Kelley said over and over again—until we conclude the individual is evasive, anti-reason, willfully ignorant, and so evil?

That is a genuine difference of opinion. And one issue is how do we judge the workings, context, of another person’s mind to become certain that he is an evil evader? Or, as Dr. Peikoff suggests, in the case of most philosophical ideas it is obvious from the nature of the ideas themselves [intrinsically] that they are evil and anyone who espouses them is evil?

Because I had seen again and again David Kelly begin a calm discussion with an opponent, listening, summarizing his understanding of their views—and, in many cases, but not all, very rapidly moving to a tough, demanding criticism of his opponent’s evasions, repeated contradictions, and dubious motives. Indeed, in this regard, we viewed him, in those days, as a very scary interlocutor—courteous, willing to listen, but relentlessly focusing in on evasions. The little cartoon created by Leonard Peikoff had not application to this man.

I will not try to summarize an entire book, the brilliant “The Contested Legacy of Ayn Rand,” but here are a few suggestive paragraphs from the introduction: “In regard to the mental actions that produce ideas, I will show that a philosophical conclusion rests on an enormously complex process of thought in which honest errors are possible at many points. In holding that most positions at variance with Objectivism are inherently dishonest, Peikoff is, once again, giving voice to intrinsicism—a belief that the truth is revealed and that error reflects a willful refusal to see. In light of the objectivity of knowledge and the distinction between error and evil, I will show in Section IV that tolerance is the proper attitude toward people we disagree with, unless and until we have evidence of their irrationality.”

This, then, is the heart of the discussion, and you could do yourself no greater service, after reading Dr. Peikoff’s “Fact and Value,” than to pick up a copy of “Truth and Toleration.” The lingering tempest over Dr. Peikoff’s attempt to expel David Kelley from Objectivism—a power that Dr. Peikoff discovered he did not possess—rapidly fades into the background as you engage with this unique exposition of Objectivist ideas, how they play out in our lives, and how we live in world of non-Objectivists.


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  • Posted by Vinay 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Bang on, Kaila. Re 2), find the discussion above which I started re the anomalies---now that ARI scholars are also seen cavorting with the German spies. Or are they Russian now? Re 1) Unfortunately Rand laid the groundwork for this She said my O is the only O there is. You have to take it 100.00%, or not at all. You can't pick and choose. It was directed at libertarians perhaps. But some took all that literally. Even then, even ARI does not promote Rand's view of human sexuality according to Will Thomas. She got it wrong, at least the bit on homosexuality. Also, Rand said that if you amend, or chop and change, don't call it O. There's a case for TAS to call what they are promoting as Neo-Objectivism. And that case is not frivolously stupid as the idea that "people who hold wrong ideas, at any point in their lives, become EVIL at that point in their lives."
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Those claiming she made "errors" for conflicting with conventional ideas and calling it her philosophy are trying to rewrite her philosophy to be something other than what it is.
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Objectivism is the total of the philosophical principles she articulated. There is no separation between the words and the concepts they designated. But no additional ideas, correct or not, make her say something she didn't say. It doesn't mean to stop thinking or not use the principles she formulated in new applications. Leonard Peikoff himself has continued to do that, and so have others. There is no example of anyone saying not to. New ideas or formulations may or may not have been implicit in Ayn Rand, but they are not Ayn Rand.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I can identify with these concerns. I have a...well, in-law...who has suggested "Shouldn't Objectivism and Scientology merge?" This viscerally puts me on the attack, as against someone would desecrate my temple. "Objectivism" is the complete body of Ayn Rand's statements, and only those statements. But remove the quotation marks and is not Objectivism a coherent, integrated, consistent set of propositions about the fundamental nature of reality, reason, man, his political order, and his art? And each and every one of those propositions has logical implications and connections, does it not? And so might this set of propositions point logically and consistently to another proposition--but one Ayn Rand did not identify or state? Is that possible? Let us suppose that Ayn Rand had been a professional philosopher but not, as well, a brilliant artist of fiction. Let us say, she had decided not to deal with esthetics or deal with it only briefly, in passing. When she was gone, "Objectivism" would be all the propositions she had stated and identified. But they would include no integrated propositions in esthetics. If another philosopher than came along, studied Objectivism, and identified and stated Objectivism's implications for a theory of esthetics--as Ayn Rand actually stated those implications--would that in no sense be part of the philosophy of Objectivism because Ayn Rand did not state it? Is the Objectivist theory of esthetics only "Objectivist" because Ayn Rand stated it? Yes, it is a stretch to suppose Ayn Rand might have left out a theory of esthetics, but suppose instead of esthetics, she had left out any theory of induction? And then a philosopher came along and supplied that theory totally consistent with all propositions of Objectivism. Would this in no sense be a contribution to Objectivism"? Would Objectivism, "closed," reject that alien tissue--or accept it on the grounds of philosophical fundamentality, relevance, and logical consistency with the entire body of Ayn Rand's statements?
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    A few people periodically re-open their own wounds in personal wars no one else is fighting. That alone can make it difficult to understand what ideas they are talking about.

    Leonard Peikoff's "Fact and Value" wasn't strident or personal. He minimized references to personalities, concentrated on the principles, and has since moved forward with his work while a few others have tried to make it into a perpetual personal war with periodic revivals feeding resentment. That is where we see the constant personal denunciations, which have been one-sided for years.

    If you understand what Leonard Peikoff wrote in "Fact and Value", which was written to be self contained, then it doesn't make much difference who said what else to what degree. I have yet to see a copy of the original paper David Kelley distributed which prompted the Peikoff essay.
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Esceptico: "Rand made many, many mistakes." His previous posts only point to his holding conventional views at odds with Ayn Rand.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    For many years after Dr. Peikoff's denunciation of David Kelley and his attempt to excommunicate him from Objectivism, there was an unceasing flood of attacks on David, the new Objectivist organization, its activities, its members. Over the internet, everything the new Objectivist organization did was condemned and ridiculed. If Dr. Peikoff was "minding his own business," perhaps it was because he had "let slip the dogs of war" and now could merely watch. I recall that the first topic I proposed for a talk at the Objectivist summer seminar, "Neuroscience and the Nature of Man," was ridiculed and denounced as soon as it was listed. My brother, Roger, emailed me: "You already have said the wrong thing, and that is just your title." As it became evident to more and more observers that David and his organization were promulgating in every context the ideas of Ayn Rand, not sanctioning "inventive" Objectivism, making careful and precise expositions of what Ayn Rand said, Dr. Peikoff indeed fell silent and "minded his own business." When David published "The Virtue of Benevolence," arguing by reference to EVERY criteria Ayn Rand had evoked that "benevolence" belonged among the cardinal Objectivist virtues, Dr. Peikoff was silent. This identification, going beyond the historic virtues identified by Ayn Rand--such as honesty, integrity, justice, productivity--named a genuinely original and important aspect of reason. Within the formula, "So-and-so-virtue is your recognition..." Kelley added a subtle and pervasive recognition of reality, so evident in heroes such as Rearden and Galt. It is the recognition that our most fundamental, underlying attitude toward our fellow men--the species Ayn Rand identified as "heroic beings"--ought be initial benevolence, openness, and receptiveness to good. To this single species capable of living a life according to morality, it was rational to extend an open hand because, of course, as Ayn Rand insisted, reason and benevolence are the natural states of man. In response to this startling contribution to Objectivism, Dr. Peikoff was silent. As ever, David was offering and proving this on his own, no appeal of any kind ever was made to Dr. Peikoff. But, as David and new Objectivist organization, year after year, established its thoroughly Objectivist identity, the silence of Dr. Peikoff became an indictment of his sense of justice that first whispered, then spoke, and then cried out to heaven.
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is a lot left to be learned. Ayn Rand herself openly knew that. She didn't even get to writing more that she had intended to, and even that would not have been the end of knowledge. It does not change what Ayn Rand did. Whether or not a new discovery is consistent with it is different matter. It's not clear what you meant by "fundamental" -- more basic than A is A. etc.? -- fundamental to a new branch like induction or other aspects of epistemology? An application fundamental to something else?

    The matter of contextual knowledge pertains to how it is applied, which is what I think you intended by "one can only act on what is [currently] available to him". Only in that sense is it complete, if you know all of it. But that is the case for any principles. It doesn't mean there are no new principles in depth or scope to discover with expanding knowledge and it doesn't mean that correct new knowledge contradicts it.
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Neither Ayn Rand nor Leonard Peikoff nor any other such person associated with her philosophy has ever said "there is nothing left to learn". To say that Ayn Rand's philosophy is what she said it is obviously does not mean "there is nothing left to learn".
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  • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    David Kelley, of course, declared by Dr. Peikoff in "Fact and Value," be an evader, destroyer of Objectivism, of no value to Objectism--check the language of "Fact and Value," please--did what Ayn Rand would have advocated. Turned, went his own way, and established a new Objectivist organization that recently celebrated its 25th anniversary. David never once went back to reconcile with Dr. Peikoff. The meeting with John Allison that I mentioned in my comment was at the behest of Allison. Nor do I recall David ever bringing up the subject of Dr. Peikoff, although the board of directors of the new Objectivist organization were vexed by it--especially Ed Snider for good reasons evident from my comment. That Ayn Rand declared Dr. Peikoff her intellectual heir laid upon him, of course, some obligation to discern true Objectivists and to reject false Objectivists. In the case of David Kelley, in my view, he failed badly--and almost certainly was motivated by power concerns. Although I cannot be sure of that. From his own lifelong unhappiness with Objectivism and his role, it may be that, as a Rationalist, he simply was ensnared in errors of logic and "true belief."
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  • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You bring up a good point, Vinay. Edward Crane said over and over again that Objectivism is the philosophy underlying work of Cato. But I do not believe I have seen an official such statement by Cato. Would it be appropriate? The chairman of Cato, today, was a long-time member of the TAS board. Do we need both? Sure. Cato is explicitly and publicly dedicated to analysis of public policy. That is but one area, or implication, of Objectivism.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That is the most illogical non-objectivist statement I have ever heard. It sounds almost like a religious cult which was my point
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  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    They didn't take the time to evaluate anything about me. This shows the closed almost cult like nature of ARI in the past. I think they are changing.
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  • Posted by Vinay 9 years, 2 months ago
    If people who hold bad ideas innocently are evil, then I would need to excommunicate all my non-O friends, my entire family (my grandfather and his siblings were leaders in the Marxist movement) and most/ all of my ex-work and many current colleagues. Stops. Mulls it over. Writes a new Second Amendment .... you may say or write anything you want, but if what you say/ write is considered "evil" by an agent, you will be removed from the United States or sent off to The Alaskan Archipelago. No discussion.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago
    This is the second half of the post, immediately above, to fit within 5000 words:

    I hope that this is not "dirty pool," but I listen to many taped discussions by Dr. Peikoff. As someone...oh, yes, David Kelley...said: "Even if it is an opponent, you might learn something."

    And this tape, in some ways the saddest I ever heard, and the most honest--friends, I never said that because Dr, Peikoff was mistaken, in my view, he was dishonest and evil--was his confession that he never had been happy. Not until, I think--check me on this--his official retirement at 82. He felt he MUST do philosophy as a career, had to spend his life fighting for Objectivism, but it gave him no pleasure. In effect, he longed for 5:00 a.m. and the end of the grind. I guess he never confided that to anyone for half a century.

    Now how did that happen? Young Leonard Peikoff discovered Objectivism, as I understand it, at age 16. He learned it, practiced it, taught it, brilliantly and articulated expounded it all his life. How could his consistent adherence to Objectivist principles have failed to lead him to happiness--any happiness?

    Well, I don't know, of course, but people adopt ideas and hold to them with ferocious tenacity, and, yet, when those ideas tell them "Seek your happiness, not your duty," there are men who cannot hear that. The reality of their own lives, hopes, and feelings is not relevant; ideas are the world. So many of us say, over and over, to others, that the meaning of life is happiness, joy, and find so little of it. Surely, that is not the true counsel of Objectivism?
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  • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago
    This comment is in two posts because it exceeds 5000 characters. This is the first part:

    I am pleased, in a way, to see the size and fervor of this debate, although many know that books could be filled with the internet firefights over this. I see much intelligent commentary and a certain sophistication about Objectivism.

    It was Ed Snider who talked Ayn Rand into letting ARI be created and he who put up the money and was on the board. Not long afterward, he was driven from ARI by Dr. Peikoff for his views of certain issues--presumably self-evidently evil views that no truly rational person even could discuss with him--but this was after Ayn Rand had died. Ed Snider was a potential rival of Dr. Peikoff for leadership of ARI.

    Mr. Snider, leaving ARI and its board, and like so many individuals ex-communicated from Objectivism by Dr. Peikoff, found refuge with David Kelley and became a long-term financial supporter of the Atlas Society.

    I have never said that Dr. Peikoff intends to turn Objectivism into a religious cult. It is true that his leadership has imposed upon ARI some characteristics of a cult--many of those characteristics debated in these discussions--but it would be to take Dr. Peikoff's own position to conclude that he has chosen, or intends, or has hidden motives that would favor a cult. Of course he has no such motives; he is just mistaken on the vexed, complex issue of how to protect the integrity of the philosophy he loves, how to promulgate it, and how to know its true enemies.

    I seldom attribute ideas to David Kelley, but he has said, explicitly, in these words, that Dr. Peikoff is a thoroughgoing Rationalist. His philosophical method is to begin with Objectivist philosophy and to deduce, derive, his position on any given event or issue in the world.

    Rationalism, of course, is a pattern, a tendency, and we must be careful not to caricature it. But I learned the difference between a Rationalist and an Objectivist from Ayn Rand. Because I was steeped in Objectivist thought and reasoning during the years Ayn Rand was publishing her essays, but NO essay came out that did not surprise me at least in some small way.

    Holy shit, she says it is all right for me to take a government scholarship? My "higher up" Objectivist friends, one later the president of ARI, had convinced me to give up my scholarship. The benevolent, kindly dean at Brown had said, "Oh, okay, I'll give you one of our private scholarships." Dear, tolerant people.

    Holy shit, she says that no rational, strong woman could want to be President of the United States, except in the tragic emergency where no other good candidate was available. That little bomb blew the entire cadre of Rationalists out the door. Ayn Rand simply observed: There is an objective feminine personality and women who have developed that personality would much prefer not to be Commander in Chief of all men....

    Holy Shit, her argument against competing governments came down to the simple observation--in reality, not less: What happens if two guys, part of two different governments, get into a hot dispute, and call on their cops? And the two sets of cops arrive with guns drawn to protect the rights of "their" citizen. What? You are deciding this profound, abstract, philosophical issue by reference to the EMPIRICAL observation that obviously it can't work, guys?

    Friends, Leonard Peikoff has never, EVER surprised us by an application of Objectivism. If you know the principles and structure of Objectivism, you know in advance what Dr. Peikoff will say on any issue. It get boring, except perhaps for the pleasure of listening to him preach the word to the unconverted. When the Rationalist refers to reality he does so to clarify for others the right ideas apply.

    Remember the heartfelt cry of sorrow upon the death of Marilyn Monroe? Come on, if we had not been told by Ayn Rand she was a shining example of generously shared joy in woman's sexuality NOT ONE of us would have conceived that column. Ever since, MM has been an Objectivist icon.
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You can write the sentence to express whatever you think, but it's not what you said the first time.

    ARI has its own programs, some of which have been referred to here many times, but as an organization it does not involve itself in forums like this. Especially with the kind of open hostility from a few domineering malcontents of different kinds not conducive to the purpose of rational discussion to spread the ideas of Ayn Rand, who can blame them for not squandering resources. They have a lot to do and are doing it.
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Obviously they disagree with your self assessment. So what do you need them for? If they are wrong it would be their loss, but it's their choice. There is a long history of people claiming to be Objectivist who don't understand it in significant ways or who aren't very good at explaining it, and there is no obligation to support everyone who comes along claiming to be Objectivist. But no "free market of ideas" requires official approval from anyone before any individual can pursue and publicize his own ideas.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Knowledge is contextual: until something is found that is missing, than it's "complete."
    One can only act on what is available to him.
    And if something new was discovered that was not fundamental, her philosophy remains intact.
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Leonard Peikoff is minding his own business, not fighting and "excommunicating". When he disagrees with someone he makes his choice, rightly or wrongly, and pursues his own values, dropping what he isn't interested in or doesn't want to support. He is especially interested in maintaining the integrity of Ayn Rand's philosophy and not compromising it away. It is not "open" to become something else.

    That does not mean there is no more thinking to be done, but not in the name of someone else's philosophy. That has been addressed many times. Those who think they have something to offer should pursue it on their own let their own 'market' determine how it does, as many do. They don't need Leonard Peikoff or any organization and should stop the ongoing complaining that he or ARI doesn't support them. The fact is, much of which is written claiming to be or be compatible with Objectivism just isn't very good. Those who genuinely have something to offer will do it and prove it on their own.
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    IF Mr. Kelly were so great at contributing to Objectivist philosophy I expect he would have been embraced by AR and LP as well as PS and HB also YB (I am sure you know which people these initials belong too) but he wasn't. All of them have been instrumental in further explaining Objectivism so people like me could have a better grasp of it. Is he an outcast, no, he just decided to walk from Objectivism as developed by AR on his own. As far as I know he has not made a dent in it.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    How do you know? Rand was not omniscient. What we know is that nothing can be added that is inconsistent with the fundamental principles, but that is not the same thing as saying something profound cannot be discovered
    .
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