What is the difference between a representative democracy and a republic?
I see posts often that state that we (USA) were not created to be a democracy (I think they mean Representative Democracy when this is said.)
I do not think people often have thought through what the difference really is, and how did our country change from a republic to a representative democracy, or have we made that change?
What are your thoughts about which we are, and what would be needed to be one or the other? Should we be one or the other or should we be a hybrid of the two?
Definitions:
May help in the discussion
Democracy: government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
Republic: a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.
I do not think people often have thought through what the difference really is, and how did our country change from a republic to a representative democracy, or have we made that change?
What are your thoughts about which we are, and what would be needed to be one or the other? Should we be one or the other or should we be a hybrid of the two?
Definitions:
May help in the discussion
Democracy: government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
Republic: a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.
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Prior to 1820s, an elector had to be a consenting citizen, property owner, tax payer.
After the 1820s, the requirement to be a property owner and tax payer was lifted, and any warm body (male) could vote, thus started the decline into the current People's Democratic Socialist Republic of America.
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Reference:
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Massachusetts
Constitution of 1780, Section III. House of Representatives
IV. Every male person, being twenty-one years of age, and resident in any particular town in this Commonwealth for the space of one year having a freehold estate (that is, property owned outright) within the same town, of the annual income of three pounds, or any estate of the value of sixty pounds, shall have a right to vote....
Amendment of 1821
Article III. Every male citizen of twenty-one years of age and upwards who shall have resided within the commonwealth one year, and within the town or district in which he may claim a right to vote, six calendar months and who shall have paid, by himself or his parent, master or guardian, any state or county tax; and also, every citizen who shall be, by law, exempted from taxation, and who shall be, in all other respects, qualified as above mentioned, shall have a right to vote; and no other person shall be entitled to vote in such election.
Most states have similar amendments.
In Article 4, Section 4, the people in the States are promised a republican form.
REPUBLICAN FORM
GOVERNMENT (Republican Form of Government)- One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people,... directly...
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 695
The American people have the powers of sovereignty, and DIRECTLY exercise those powers, as in absolute ownership of person, labor and property (aka "private property").
DEMOCRATIC FORM
DEMOCRACY - That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy."
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 432
The U.S. citizenry indirectly exercise sovereign powers via representation.
REPUBLIC - A commonwealth; That form of government in which the administration of affairs is open to all the citizens. In another sense, it signifies the state, independent of its form of government.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 1302
NOTE: The People's Republic of China is a republic - but not a republican form.
The “body politic” that forms the sovereignty under the DEMOCRATIC FORM can not be the people who are sovereign under the REPUBLICAN FORM of government.
Citizens are NOT sovereigns
"CITIZEN - ... Citizens are members of a political community who, in their associative capacity, have established or submitted themselves to the DOMINION of government for the promotion of the general welfare and the protection of their individual as well as collective rights. "
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p.244
Who established the U.S. Constitution? The “people of the United States”.
"The Constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves, for their own government and not for the government of the individual States."
- - -John Barron v. The Mayor and City Council of Baltimore, 7 Peters 204, (1822).
NOTE: at the ratification of the USCON, "all people" could not vote, since electors had to be tax paying property owners who consented to be subject citizens. Ergo, those Americans who could not ratify could not consent to the terms of the USCON. In short, the USCON is not a creation of "all American people."
"... the term 'citizen,' in the United States, is analogous to the term "subject" in the common law; the change of phrase has resulted from the change in government. ... he who before was a "subject of the King" is now a citizen of the State."
- - - State v. Manuel, 20 N.C. 144 (1838)
SUBJECT - One that owes allegiance to a sovereign and is governed by his laws...Men in free governments are subjects as well as citizens; as citizens they enjoy rights and franchises; as subjects they are bound to obey the laws. The term is little used, in this sense, in countries enjoying a republican form of government.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1425
A sovereign cannot simultaneously be a subject of a sovereign government.
DOMINION - Generally accepted definition of "dominion" is perfect control in right of ownership. The word implies both title and possession and appears to require a complete retention of control over disposition. -Sovereignty; as the dominion of the seas or over a territory.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed., p.486
SOVEREIGN - "...Having undisputed right to make decisions and act accordingly".
New Webster's Dictionary And Thesaurus, p. 950.
SOVEREIGN - A person, body or state in which independent and supreme authority is vested...
Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1395.
A citizen submits to the DOMINION of government. In other words, the government is sovereign over the citizen. Ergo, no citizen, state or federal, can be a sovereign.
IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT THE DEMOCRACY CANNOT INFRINGE UPON ENDOWED RIGHTS OF THE SOVEREIGN PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN FORM?
" PERSONAL LIBERTY, or the Right to enjoyment of life and liberty, is one of the fundamental or NATURAL Rights, which has been protected by its inclusion as a guarantee in the various constitutions, which is not derived from, or dependent on, the U.S. Constitution, which may not be submitted to a vote and may not depend on the outcome of an election. It is one of the most sacred and valuable Rights, as sacred as the Right to private property...and is regarded as inalienable."
- - - 16 Corpus Juris Secundum, Constitutional Law, Sect.202, p.987...
Endowed (sacred) rights are not subject to the government, the ballot, nor the democracy -
UNLESS you have CONSENTED, and thus waived those rights.
but she's at least as prolific, if not more! -- j
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Art. 4., Sec. 4 = promises RFOG to STATES
RFOG instituted by DoI, as plainly stated by Honest Abe, and other citations re: sovereignty
USCON makes distinction between people and citizens.
People have rights and powers
Citizens have privileges and immunities
(and are mutually exclusive)
ERGO, the promise of the RFOG incorporates the promises made in the DoI, as part of the Supreme Law of the Land.
Hope that helps.
You're walking along with your wife. Three men approach. They say they want to rape your wife. They vote on it. They win, 3 to 2. That's democracy.
that's a political reason, isn't it? -- j
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the Wilson presidency will live forever in infamy. -- j
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Of course we understand "democracy" as Anyone can vote no matter if one is invested or not, pays local taxes or not, is legal or not...alive or dead. And must we not forget...only the squeaky wheel gets greased or rather those that don't squeak pay for the grease...And...your rights are delegated to you by government and the squeaky wheel! (sarcasm for laughs) This is the present state of our government.
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“ It may be laid down, as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every citizen who enjoys the protection of a free government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even of his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency.”
- - - George Washington; "Sentiments on a Peace Establishment" in a letter to Alexander Hamilton (2 May 1783); published in The Writings of George Washington (1938), edited by John C. Fitzpatrick, Vol. 26, p. 289.
[... Every citizen ... owes a portion of his property ... and services in defense ... in the militia ... from 18 to 50 years of age... ]
Make no mistake!
• The Declaration says : YOU have an endowed right to life.
• But citizens have no inalienable (endowed) right to life.
• The Declaration says : YOU have an endowed right to natural and personal liberty.
• But citizens have only civil and political liberty.
• The Declaration says : YOU have an endowed right to absolutely own private property (upon which you can pursue happiness without permission of a superior).
• But citizens have no private property, absolutely owned... a portion can be claimed by the government.
If you've consented to be a citizen, you have NO ENDOWED RIGHTS.
Zip. Nada. Bumpkiss. Empty Set. Nought.
Any presumption to the contrary is an error not supported by law nor court ruling.
The government can order you to train, fight, and die, on command.
The government can take a portion of your property -or wages - or whatever - as it sees fit.
All authorized by your consent to be a CITIZEN (state or U.S.).
(The USCON complies with this, too. People have rights and powers. Citizens have privileges and immunities. And they’re mutually exclusive.)
RFOG: People are sovereign with endowed rights to life, liberty and absolute ownership of private property (explicitly protected in all constitutions).
DFOG: Citizens are subjects with the privilege to participate in government, but surrender their birthright and embrace mandatory duties, which is why qualified ownership of estate is subject to ad valorem taxes. Subject citizens have no endowed rights to life, liberty, nor absolute ownership - saith George Washington, et al.
Republic = Delegated Vote
Np meed to muddy the waters.
Think "well, she's only being persecuted for political reasons" mental malfunction Hillary supporters.
So once you've given him one thumbs up, that's Herb and the thread founder at the very top the same. This space is for double or triple credit.... Don't make me say it again.
Staff of Galt's Gulch any thumbs up in this comment accrue to Xenok and Ralph.
This one's for you!
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