A bit of concern about recent discussions on the Gulch.

Posted by $ AJAshinoff 12 years, 7 months ago to The Gulch: General
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As a Conservative who appreciates and frequents this site I often look at the postings and wonder where they apply to Objectivism. I post my fair share of politically charged items here for discussion. But when I do there is a firm Conservative reason that applies to each article which offers the possibility for me to present my belief that Conservatism and Objectivism are very nearly one in the same.

I've noticed that recent postings on the Gulch have been related to world events that have somewhat blurred the focus of the objectivist discussion, in my opinion this is a travesty. I've resolved the matter by concluding that "world events" or even "national events" really can't be properly discussed as objectivist topics because Objectivism relates to the individual and the individuals pursuit of his/her own satisfaction in his/her own life. Rightly so, in Objectivism the individual is paramount and individuals pursuing their own interests are the only way a truly prosperous and free society can emerge. FYI, this in my life-philosophy is American Conservatism, nothing less.

I can see where local and national topics can be directly relevant to Objectivists. Global politics can only be pointed to as a harbinger of what could be if we, the American people, allow our nation to slip into the same decrepit mire that has enslaved so many nations over the centuries. But neither subject, national or global, has any direct (immediate) impact on ones day-to-day personal pursuits so how does it apply? Why should it be discussed on the Gulch?

For my own edification, I've rationalized that the United States of America, or any country or state for that matter, are in themselves pseudo-entities in a global/national society. The foundation of this thought stems from the understanding that the foundation of any society, be it a village or a town, a city or a county, or a state or a country, is nothing more than a collection of relatively like minded people who have agreed (or been born into) a set of laws they willfully agree to abide by. In doing so, their individual satisfaction and prosperity are now tied to the environment in which they live. In such societies, and all societies are all like this, the collectivist decisions of the group can destroy individual freedoms if the body of individuals not careful.

Our Founding Fathers were "that careful" in establishing the charter for this Nation. Objectively, should we not be focusing our efforts introducing discussion topics that ALWAYS cultivate the Objectivist viewpoint to those who visit this site? Is not the only way to restore this country by appealing to the profound truths that Objectivism offers to the individual? Will not the addition of millions of THINKING human beings in American society negate and even reverse the active munching of our liberties by the moochers cultivated by the Great Orifice and his miniOns?

Galt's Gulch is far more significant than any current events website - there are literally millions of them where people can flame all they like. Objectivism, regardless of the topic being posted, should ultimately be the core of any discussion in any thread on the Gulch. After all, Objectivism is the reason why all of us came to this website (even the freedom hating trolls, those desiring to proselytize, or those, like me, hoping to find an audience for his/her novels).

My 2 bits.


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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 12 years, 7 months ago
    I understand and appreciate the concern some have with regard to news posts detracting from the overall goals of the web site. Nonetheless, there are many of us who have been looking for modern parallels to AS and are simply checking boxes to mark the inevitable destruction of the world of the looters. It is a means of acknowledging the reality we are in, and in some respects, giving us something to laugh about in an era where our beliefs are not shared by many.
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  • Posted by jrberts5 12 years, 7 months ago
    First, conservatism and Objectivism are not nearly one and the same. Objectivism is a logically structured philosophical system based on reality with man's happiness as its goal. To this point in the history of the United states, conservatism has been a "me too but less" political policy that has contributed to an ever increasing removal of freedom and wealth from the American people. Second, you are correct as to the nature of the posts on this website being mostly not tied to Objectivism and in many cases in opposition to it. The owner's of this site have the right to step in and correct that but thus far have deemed not to do so. Based on that, I have chosen a date at which I will leave this site, shrug if you wish, even though I only joined it a couple of months ago.
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      Posted by sdesapio 12 years, 7 months ago
      RE: "the nature of the posts on this website being mostly not tied to Objectivism and in many cases in opposition to it. The owner's of this site have the right to step in and correct that but thus far have deemed not to do so."

      Propagating Ayn Rand's ideas is absolutely a priority for us, but the means by which we help in that propagation is a little different than one might expect. Galt's Gulch Online was never meant to be an echo chamber.

      We have members of all levels of experience and knowledge here in the valley. And, we're fully aware that there are fewer with knowledge than without. The question is, how do we get those who have little experience with Objectivism to engage in a meaningful way, leave the conversation having learned something without feeling condescended to, and... come back. The answer is to let them start the conversation and let them talk about something that matters to them. Once they are fully committed, it's time to engage... with a gentle hand.

      Most Objectivism web sites can be very intimidating with everyone sounding "smart" and well read. Jumping straight to the hardcore stuff, and staying there, leaves many on the outskirts afraid to prod. Here in the Gulch though, whatever your thing is, we're interested. Obama? Got it. Religion? No problem. Anti-Objectivism? Bring it. As long as everyone's keeping it civil, we're good to go.

      It's then up to you, jrberts, to find your opportunities... and engage... fully. To seek out those diamonds-in-the-rough and coax them into asking more questions about Objectivism and ultimately, about their own beliefs.

      You've heard it all before jr. - we're nasty, condescending, know-it-alls who are devoid of emotion and act as though we have all the answers. We never want to hear opposing positions and turn our back at any "real" challenge.

      What they don't understand, is that they don't understand. Their "real" challenges are "real" alright... really funny.

      Here's the thing... the problem isn't them jr. The problem is us.

      They're right.

      Now, we need you here jr. And, we need you to take it, get over it, and engage. They want to post anti-objectivist links? OK. "Irrelevant" news? No problem. Political slants? Got it. Good. Bring it. We're ready.

      This is a marathon. Not a sprint.

      You want to affect change? This is the place to do it. Those most ready to "get it" are here. http://GaltsGulchOnline.com has 15,000+ members and is currently the most visited Objectivist forum online (by a LONG shot).

      Alexa Ranks (lower is better)
      4aynrandfans.com: 2,459,477
      ObjectivistLiving.com: 1,223,694
      ObjectivismOnline.com: 728,534
      GaltsGulchOnline.com: 70,709 !!!

      You're in the right place jr. We have work to do. Now, brush yourself off and get back in there.
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      • Posted by khalling 12 years, 7 months ago
        LOL
        civil should include reason, logic and evidence.
        wow. pep talk from the admin. I'm all pumped up!
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 7 months ago
          I'd call that a 'come to Jesus' meeting, but.....
          (And I'm confused about that ranking system..'lower is better'...? But excited to hear we have so many members and that we're most visited. I've been waiting to hear how many members we have since.... a year ago.. I think I've asked for like half a dozen times. Good to know. Thanks Scott.)
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    • Posted by khalling 12 years, 7 months ago
      jrberts,
      but from day one n this site, you knew that this was not an Objectivist site! It took you two months to figure that out? I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts and appreciated when you do "resets" in the conversation with Objectivism. I can understand if this site isn't interesting to you-but this is my issue with Objectivism in general-the outreach kinda sucks....I mean, look at ARI. Not a peep about these movies. not one peep. Yet thousands are learning about AS and AR because they saw the movie. ARI just recently started a nifty looking program for those just learning about Objectivism- maybe they were able to fund it with the royalty checks J. Aglialoro pays LP. hmmm
      anyway, I hope you reconsider.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 7 months ago
    THe main point I read here is that you want more Objectivist disscussion. One of the challenges objectivists face on this site are disscussions assuming agreement with first principles. There are actually several core areas where Conservatives and objectivists disagree. Religion is one of them. You can always frame the disscussion with "the objectivist would say..." if you 'd like. Several of us do, but it can be a little frustrating always going back to the 1st principles and showing the logical progression. I 'll occassionally do it, simply, but the conversation can sometimes wane. That 's my personal opinion. The site is first about the movies second about an introduction to AR and AS. There are many excellent Objectivist forums out there having current events discussions. I think the uniqueness of this site is a strong political awareness and possible focus that the current audience craves or they 'd post other stuff. I do prefer posts that frame up a disscussion. But sometimes I post with a comment. I never did enjoy the Objectivist focus on the individual to the exclusion of what is going on in the world around them. Personally I think that 's too much academia influence. It 's why we have scientists buying into manmade global warming and Objectivists in favor of some gun control or voting for Obama. But that 's just me. Mminick posted a individual study of Objectivism a while back. If you didn 't see it consider joining his disscussion, it may be more of what youre looking for AJ.
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    • Posted by $ 12 years, 7 months ago
      Objectivism is a personal philosophy, it cannot be otherwise. The exception to that is marriage or choosing to be with someone. Even then its two individuals pursing their own gratification in life within the sphere of another human being who respects that.

      My whole point is: no matter how wide we cast the net - be that the missing 747, O's embarrassing posture on the global stage or the 4.7 earthquake in LA this morning, there should always be some objectivist tie in - no matter how slight. As for religion, I see no conflict. Self interest can dictate covering all your bases just in case. :)
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      • Posted by khalling 12 years, 7 months ago
        Objectivism is a philosophy-a philosophical system. It may be individualistic, but it is not a "personal philosophy."
        I agree with your second point.
        To your last statement, rational self interest is about an Ethics of man qua man-your last statement is kind of interesting, but along that line, perhaps I should study witchcraft?
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 12 years, 7 months ago
    I can agree that many posts of late have been no more than links to current event news, many with no comments from the poster. While some of those won't interest me enough for comment, I will look at them after a time for the comments from others in order to see if there's an objectivist related point to discuss. If not, I just pass on. And there are topics raised in many of those discussions that impact my philosophical life enough to engender both critical and agreement comments from me. I've only a few months of involvement with the site, so I won't pretend to have any opinion for the site, but I find a good deal of enjoyment participating in the discussions - even with the many that I find little agreement with.

    But your view of Objectivism as strictly concerned with the individual and his/her own happiness - I don't see it as something that can be separated from the individual's life in society or society's impact on the individual, which can sometimes be epitomized by current events. In matter of fact, many of today's current events can be analogized back to AS and their impacts to the key roles. So I see an opportunity for a rich field of Objectivist discussion in many postings. I can't agree at all with the thought that national and global events have no immediate impact on one's day-to-day personal pursuits. If one is an Objectivist, then of necessity, one is interested in what is reality, what is true, and discussing such in the 'Gulch' is the perfect place to do it since there seems to be such a broad reach of viewpoints and opinions.

    I also find some disagreement with your description of a nation/state as a pseudo-entity in a global/national society. I can't find any necessity for a nation/state to be a part of a global/national society either for it's establishment or continued existence. Nor can I agree with the definition of a society being a collection of like minded people that willfully agree to anything. Rather, I believe it to be a power projection by those that have attained a level of control of the property of that locale, by being the first there with ownership, by wealth and the application of influence of that wealth, by majority consensus, or by imposition of force. I believe that any identifiable society is composed of a wide range of agreement/disagreement with the controlling basis or power structure of the society that are in a continuing struggle for influence and control.

    As to how to best or significantly spread the philosophy of Objectivism, I don't know that there is a best, but I fully agree that the Gulch is far more significant than any current events site. i just don't think imposing any kind of strict purity test for participation helps to increase that significance. I rather enjoy interacting with all of the wide variety of opinion and discussion, and if I find one that repulses me for some reason, oh well, I find the same in my day-to-day existence. But I find no argument with your desire to introduce topics that cultivate the Objectivist viewpoint.

    Although I can see some areas of general agreement between the statements of Conservative and Objectivist, I also see a large amount of disagreement, particularly with the actions of Conservatives and I can't agree with any of the cultural conservation goals of a Conservative. In my view, Conservatives are as far way from the enlightenment principles of natural individual rights and rights protection as are progressives. I contend that particularly in the private writings of the most influential Founders, that you find very little interest or belief in a country based on cultural structures, but almost solely on the rights and achievements of the individual and the de-centralization of any power base.
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  • Posted by $ Maphesdus 12 years, 7 months ago
    I disagree with the sentiment that Objectivism is the same as modern Conservatism. There are a significant number of differences, primarily on issues such as abortion, gay rights, religion, drugs, and immigration, just to name a few. If Objectivism is at all similar to any of the current political ideologies, it would be Libertarianism, not Conservatism.

    Classical Liberalism: social & economic freedom

    Modern Liberalism: social freedom
    Modern Conservatism: economic freedom
    Modern Libertarianism: social & economic freedom

    Objectivism: social & economic freedom
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    • Posted by $ Abaco 12 years, 7 months ago
      I agree with the notion that Objectivism is not Conservatism. They are similar in many ways, though. I've seen Objectivists poopoo Libertarianism and that has confused me, because Libertarianism seems closer.

      The best (I should know) is being a non-political Objectivist. It is very easy to bomb the right and the left if you just stick with the facts. Modern American Conservatism is too close to statism and the religious right for me. Statism in an environment of declining personal liberty is a recipe for disaster, literally for death.
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      • Posted by khalling 12 years, 7 months ago
        Objectivism is philosophy. Libertarianism is a political philosophy and party.
        Maph, Modern Libertarianism does not want to protect property rights to any great degree. The protection of property rights is critical to objectivism explanation of politics, economics and law.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 7 months ago
          Why would you say that? I don't know about the L party, but those of us who are constitutional libertarians fully support private property rights. Heck, I think even most anarchists support private property rights.
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          • Posted by khalling 12 years, 7 months ago
            check out CATO's policies on intellectual property, which is a property right. Look at Von Mises and even WSJ's position and Forbes is all over the map too.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 7 months ago
              We've had that discussion before. While I support intellectual property rights, it must acknowledge independent development of the same idea. Yes, that's hard to figure out how to do, but just being hard isn't an excuse not to figure out how to do it.
              We've had the discussion about Von Mises as well. The comment that people misinterpret is that in a situation where an individual could have universal knowledge and foresight of all ramifications of decisions, then central planning would be more efficient. Since that is impossible (except for the entity that we disagree exists), then a capitalistic free market is the next most efficient system. That system depends on private property rights.
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    • Posted by $ 12 years, 7 months ago
      I never said Modern Conservative. I said merely Conservative. Modern liberalism btw is far from social or individual freedom. Modern Conservatism if far more than finance related. Modern Libertarianism? I wasn't aware it that ever changed with times
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 7 months ago
        And I think that perhaps you are mixing up the current left with liberals. They have moved to the progressive side where social issues are merely a means to effect change. It is not from a perspective of liberty, but rather from one of breaking down the social framework so as to be able to re-create it in the form of their choosing.
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      • Posted by $ Maphesdus 12 years, 7 months ago
        Everything changes ever time. In the 1960s, Libertarianism was essentially just a form of anarchy. Not so much anymore (although the streak is still there).

        And if the definitions you're using are somehow different from what I've listed above, then I'm afraid I don't know what your definitions are, and they're likely not in line with the commonly used definitions.
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        • Posted by $ 12 years, 7 months ago
          Perhaps not, I'm a Constitutional Conservative. I believe in keeping what works, improving what does not or can be improved, and repelling anything that detracts from the framework of our nation. Needless to say, the majority of our politicians fail my litmus test.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 12 years, 7 months ago
    jrberts5 is correct: Even if you could redefine "conservative" to mean "libertarian" so that principles were the standard, rather than tradition, you are still left with the fact that there is no such thing as a "conservative" analysis of induction.

    I posted a review of David Harriman's _Logical Leap_ here in the Gulch and it drew little interest.
    http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/90...
    Similarly, Harry Binswanger has a new book out on epistemology, again with little interest here:
    http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/42...

    But even politics draws little philosophical interest. khalling started a discussion on why voting is not a right http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/51...
    The comments did not get very deep into analysis. Maybe she just convinced everyone. But certainly it did not lead to any deeper discussion of the wider issues. See the comment from LetsShrug about "natural rights" and "individual rights." The statements are easy enough accept, especially from a conservative viewpoint, but Objectivism is NOT a natural rights philosophy. (That fact is well known to mature students of Objectivism.)

    It is true that by our nature in order to live in society, we must have rights. But as khalling has shown, what those rights are is not obvious or well understood.

    Trial by jury is another of those so-called natural rights that are integral to the American political tradition but which are merely custom and not objectively required by "man qua man." I put the so-called right to own firearms in the same category of arguable privileges. A convicted felon still has the right to judicial review or freedom of religion, but does not have a right to own a gun.

    Those are example of conservative political issues that float about without philosophical grounding. As such they are examples of why conservativism is not at all "almost like Objectivism."

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    • Posted by $ 12 years, 7 months ago
      Interesting choice of words "privilege" when it comes to the Bill of Rights (and what they were enacted to mean)
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      • Posted by rlewellen 12 years, 7 months ago
        Yep, big red flag for me as well. Do you think we will have to fight it out in the street if our rights are only natural? There is only one right in Objectivism it is property all others are only natural and Ayn thought the constitution was better as originally written she did not say as originally approved.
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    • Posted by khalling 12 years, 7 months ago
      Natural rights are based on the idea of Man's nature. Which means it is consistent with Objectivism. Rand talked specifically about the rights of Man.
      How did I show that "those rights are not obvious or well understood."
      Trial by jury is a procedural right. It is not a natural right. Why would you bring that up?
      Owning firearms is a derivative of the right to self-defense and You own yourself. Individuals owned cannons during the Revolutionary War. Just because one can make a case that something could be used for evil, does not allow one to decide another individual cannot own it. In Common Law, this is recognized under the maxim that one is innocent until PROVEN guilty.
      Hey, where ya been? Thanks for joining in the discussion.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 7 months ago
    I think there is a wide area of topics of discussion that can all boil down to individual rights and natural rights in an attempt to wake people up to objective thinking and following things to their logical conclusion (A=A). (Except religion). I also think some posts are just meant for fun.
    I would sure hope this site will still active (even more so) after part III is released. Aren't we all on the same mission on one level or another in the gulch? (trolls excluded of course).
    Maybe I missed your point. ?
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    • Posted by $ 12 years, 7 months ago
      Not at all. My point was that post should tie everything back to Objectivism in some way (because everything can). To discount possibility of sharing though provoking revelations on this site is just wrong. AS was a huge eye opener for me and likely was for many others. Its only natural to help cultivate that seed to fruition to stem the backslide of this nation (only enterprising individualist will).
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  • Posted by ShruginArgentina 12 years, 7 months ago

    Many current events parallel those in the novel, even though it was first published in 1957.

    Even the original "Objectivist Newsletter" (published in the 1960's) included a featue titled "From the Horror File" which drew parallels with current events of the '60's with events in the novel.

    I never had the impression that purpose of this website was to "cultivate the Objectivist viewpoint" or that "Objectivism, regardless of the topic being posted, should ultimately be the core of any discussion in any thread on the Gulch."

    I thought it was about promoting the films, and I personally believe that those who see today's news as an exemplification of Rand's vision (including me) are making a positive contribution to this site.

    The producers of the films may or may not be Objecivists. It doesn't matter. If this website enlarges the audience for their films it will have achieved its purpose.

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    • Posted by monalisaturberville1957 12 years, 7 months ago
      I do not see this site as merely concerning the films. The message of the films are something I hope awakens others out there.
      Here in the Gulch I find others whom are free speakers of their individual thoughts and beliefs. The cultivation of objectivism is a necessity. Far too long others have followed a path that leads to more of the same. WE need true change. I believe that there is someone out there that can read the post here and find there is a support group that is far more vast than anyone realized. I can hope that this site is seen for more than the films. Plant a seed and it will grow, of course we need know the fertilizer we are using to ensure strong growth.
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    • Posted by $ 12 years, 7 months ago
      You may well be right. However the purpose of the films IS to bring about the philosophy because there are so many parallels to reality. Objectivism, or Conservatism, is the cure to the leftist slide into servitude. Why are people coming to this site if not to discuss the common thread between us? As I stated previously, there are a great many political discussion websites of every leaning on the web. The Gulch is unique in that it can point to the very same political items, discuss them, and examine how current events fit into Rand's vision and/or how they strengthen our personal philosophy. After the movie is released, this website should go on.
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      • Posted by ShruginArgentina 12 years, 7 months ago
        I find it very easy to ignore the topics than don't interest me (at least not here) as I scroll down the "new" list (what happened to the missing 777 airliner is one of them as I get that information elsewhere). It may be the case that some in the Gulch are posting some of the topics just for the sake of "earning" more points.

        I daresay the purpose of the film is to make money and it doesn't matter if the producers, writers, directors, or actors understand the philophosy of Objectivism or embrace its principles.

        I hope they do..for my own selfich reasons. I believe I will enjoy the finish product much more if they do and, yes, it may "bring about the philosophy" to some degree, but it will take more than a movie which will be described by some critics as the story of the "richest and smartest" people turning their backs on society and letting ity crumble into ruin.

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        • Posted by $ winterwind 12 years, 7 months ago
          I strongly suggest some research on the purpose of the producers of the film. I predict embarrassment.
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          • Posted by ShruginArgentina 12 years, 7 months ago
            "I strongly suggest some research on the purpose of the producers of the film. I predict embarrassment."

            Predicting my emotions would be easier for you if you knew that, when it comes to films, It doesn't matter to me in the least what the producers or the director or the actors intended or their stated purpose in making the film (if any), and neither do I care enough what anyone thinks about me to be embarrassed by something that is irrelevant to whether or not I enjoy a film.

            Film makers can have great motives and still make a mess of a film, especially when bringing a book that has been read by millions to the screen.

            How many times have you liked a book better than a movie that was based on it?

            The first one that comes to mind for me is "The Fountainhead" based on the novel by Ayn Rand.

            Like this website, I hope the Atlas Shugged audience is heavily populated by those who are not familiar with Objectivism and may want to learn more about it as a result of seeing the films, especially Atlas Shrrugged:Who is John Galt."

            This is the film in which (at least some of the) principles of Objectivism will finally be articulated.

            Unfortunately, no matter how well Galt's speech is presented, it will also be "a movie which will be described by some critics as the story of the "richest and smartest" people turning their backs on society and letting ity crumble into ruin" and this may have the opposite of the desired effect, aka: the "purpose of the producers of the film.

            I hope they make a nice profit for their efforts in any case.

            And I think a film about individuals living by the principles of Objectivism and "Going Galt" in today's world would make a good story and perhaps a profitable film as well ;-).


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        • Posted by $ 12 years, 7 months ago
          All it takes is a seed to be planted. The movies and this website, like the books, are an awakening to those slumbering on government cruise control.
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          • Posted by ShruginArgentina 12 years, 7 months ago
            I became an "Objectivist" after several yeas spent reading the writings of Ayn Rand, ESPECIALLY the non-fiction. If I had simply read Altlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead I seriously doubt I would today call myslef an Objectivist.

            Most of those who see the film will never read anything Ayn Rand wrote and the movie will neither set them on the path to becoming Objectivists or evenn visiting sites like this one.

            This site is not designed for any topic, including what some would regard as the "most important topics" (regarding the philosophy of Objectivism) to stay at the top for very long. A new comment on an old topic will be seen by those few who peviously commented on the topic when it was "new" or "hot" (unlike some internet forums where a new comment will bring the topic back to the top of the current list).

            A good example of the latter is www.baexpats.org. I can make a comment )reply) to any post ever made in the forums and it will appear instantly at the top of the "latest posts" on the home page.

            This is how one of the threads I started in 2010 has had almost 700 replies and over 65,000 views.
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            • Posted by $ 12 years, 7 months ago
              Honestly the core of Rand philosophy in AS was merely a confirmation or validation to my Conservative beliefs. As I stated previously, I see very little difference between my Conservatism and my Objectivism - so much so that I call myself a Conservative and always will.
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              • Posted by khalling 12 years, 7 months ago
                AJ, if this is the case you have rejected several basic principles of Objectivism. Which is probably why you call yourself a Conservative instead.
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                • Posted by $ 12 years, 7 months ago
                  I prefer to think for myself. If that means not subscribing to all of Rand's philosophy or all of Christ's philosophy that's a plus for me, no? The moniker Conservative and to a large degree Objectivist fits MY core beliefs pretty well. In that not everything is not so cut-and-dry and that I believe there are things outside our ability to see shouldn't preclude me from anything, only strengthen my mind.
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                  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 7 months ago
                    I respect your position. My reason for pointing out the inconsistencies is that under Christianityto envelope Objectivism you have to reject 1st principles of Objectivism. and vice versa. At what point in our logical basis do we say where there is dissonance I reject as opposed to rechecking the premise? It's just a question for discussion. BUt the uncomfortable nature of these types of questions make it difficult to come to that dissonant place in looking at the topics we discuss. I think that's why we focus more (we being the GG community) on where we agree. and this is not just a Conservative issue. You see that Objectivists want to "ban" anything non-objectivist on this site as well. Why?
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                    • Posted by $ stargeezer 12 years, 7 months ago
                      "You see that Objectivists want to "ban" anything non-objectivist on this site as well. Why? "

                      This is one reason I choose not to post in many threads. Some see no issue with utilizing names from religion, while rejecting the values behind religion. I see no problem with a person who understands a study rejecting it's application in their lives, that's proper. But to reject it, to say it means nothing and has no value, but to call upon the namesake as profanity while at the same time telling another person who sees value in it that they can't even mention it - I find that inconsistent at best.

                      We all have those areas in our lives where we allow inconsistencies. Some are big things and some are small unimportant things. Where I draw a line is in my interactions with others. I would never tell an atheist that in order to be accepted, as my friend they must accept my religion, why should I be forced to surrender my religion to be their friend. Or to even post on the same board?
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                      • Posted by khalling 12 years, 7 months ago
                        to your last point, that's your decision. But in the same vein, do you feel the need to be super careful around those who say you might offend them because you said something a group would say "that's racist!" You examine the instance and find it illogical. so, you re going to have to discern me as a person, not the "profanity" I may say. cuz that's controlling. I'll offend you at every turn first and foremost because I do not believe. That aside, I do not try to incite or censor-except in the name of outrageous-like raping children for example, as argument. I am energized by our discussions. We disagree! But we also respect each other's positions! we just don't follow each other's rules all the time. I ask for reason, logic and evidence to back up opinion. that's it.
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                  • -1
                    Posted by rlewellen 12 years, 7 months ago
                    This is a purely every man for himself philosophy for promoting globalism and sacrificing your neighbors if they do not take the oath and support you in their goals.
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              • Posted by $ stargeezer 12 years, 7 months ago
                Point agreed and point given. I'm a conservative who finds AS empowering. The obectivist ideals it dealt with confirmed them as values worth aspiring for and established my conservative political views as valid in the world we live in.
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