Objectivism, Philosophy of the Individual.

Posted by $ AJAshinoff 11 years, 8 months ago to Philosophy
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"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."
- Ayn Rand

This being said, Objectivism cannot be corporate. It cannot be legislated. It can not be placed on another. It is an intimate personal philosophy that one can introduce to someone else and nothing more. True?

This is not to say that a group of individual cannot work cooperatively as individuals toward the same goal (the happiness of the individual). As a male, is not marriage a selfish act to perminently bind to you someone who makes you happy and can continue your name? As a woman, is not marriage a selfish act to perminently bind to you someone who makes you happy and will protect you and your offspring?

I contend that everything we do, rational or otherwise, is entirely self driven and that nothing we do is for anyone else.

Religion? Validates self while offering OTHERS the ability (via guilt) to dictate your actions and conduct
Faith? Covers self in the event a God does exist
Charity? Makes self feel good about self OR quiets everyone around you clammoring about selflessness

Opinions?


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  • Posted by $ Snezzy 11 years, 8 months ago
    " ... and _reason_ as his only absolute."

    There are limits, based strictly in reality, on what constitutes reason. If you use reason to understand religion, you will come to a set of conclusions that differ from those you would have found if you used religion to understand reason.

    Religion, historically, has often been a precursor for philosophy, and philosophical quest occasionally a precursor to the discovery of reason.

    If your understanding of reason is based on faith, then it is to faith you will repair when your reasoning contradicts reality. There are two sides to faith, but only one to reason. I can use my faith (on the one side) to justify my enforcement of faith (the other side) upon you. Not so with reason. As you said, "Objectivism cannot be corporate. It cannot be legislated."

    The use of reason is not open to a multi-cultural approach, where I have "male, American logic" and someone else uses "female, Eastern-Mystical" logic. I'm certain that some feminist mystics must have hated Rand for her "betrayal" of their "feminine" logic.

    Be careful not to ascribe to Objectivism or to Rand those beliefs of yours that you feel to be the same as hers.

    Rand always cautioned people not to accept Objectivism on faith. I observed her application of that principle more than once. I saw her turn on someone who believed that his feeling of agreement with Objectivism gave him permission to violate her rights. "I'LL SUE YOU!" she said. He about fell over.

    We now come to the question of belief in God. God is extremely difficult to prove, and requires faith. Proofs for God's existence can generally be shown to be logically false, but of course that does not prove His non-existence. The philosopher Blaise Pascal believed, using the logic of his famous "Pascal's Wager." In essence, he claimed it cost him nothing to believe in a god that might not exist, but that belief would gain him a benefit if there was a God.

    Well, not so fast, M. Pascal! If your God does exist, and has the powers normally ascribed, He will KNOW that you are faking your faith, and you'll be on the Express Staircase to the Lower Regions as you cease your last breath.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Thus far, God has not seen fit to cause me to suspend reason. I'm not holding my breath.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
      You misinterpret Pascal's wager. It costs nothing to believe. The alternate is not to believe, in which case if one is wrong costs eternal damnation. Thus, it is better to be a believer, thus Pascal believed. There was nothing fake or false in doing so.

      I would offer my own postulate - that of the Baddest Ass on the Block. If you do not believe that you will have a final accounting (to whatever you believe would conduct such - I believe that there is a supreme being that does such), then what prevents one from using all the force they can muster to make all others bend to their will (be the BAontheB)? Objectivism says that it is a rational understanding that only by honoring another's sovereignty can I expect mine to be honored - but I say that history shows this to be illogical and unsupported by centuries of opposite examples. Thus, regardless of whether one believes or not, it is in the interest of society to support such a proposition.
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    • Posted by Lucky 11 years, 8 months ago
      Pacal's Wager
      The price is small, the downside is great so do it. But do what?
      1. Believe in God? or 2. Claim to do so?

      The Wager has no meaning without choice. For a believer there is no choice. If making yourself believe is not possible (this could be debated, but the price is small) then the choice for a non-believer is either to deny or to fake it.

      The argument is, if you do not believe but claim to, then you do not have a 'valid ticket' as God will know and send you down anyway. This assumes that God has perfect knowledge of your thoughts, or assumes that God cares about your thoughts. One can conjecture a God that is not all knowing, or does not care what you think but just wants worship. A God of power. A vitalist. Such a proposition avoids the absurdities from beneficence.
      That is exactly what vast numbers of theists do, they accept Pacal's Wager by putting on an act of belief. It is the lowest cost action for them. The motivation is the reward now of being considered a 'good' person, and it is accepted by religious leaders who want the numbers.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
        I respectfully disagree. There is indeed a choice. One can choose to believe or not believe. I do not agree that the price is small as Pascal did, however. I would compare it to a football or baseball team trading an existing starter for future draft picks. If one is a Christian, one does have to be "all in" in the Texas Hold 'em sense. God does not want any lukewarm Christians (Revelations 3:16). Jesus had a particularly relevant parable here. He talked about whether a man would be willing to sell everything that he had for a pearl of great price. Rand would say that is ridiculous. For most people, it would come down to whether the one offering the deal is trustworthy and whether the pearl really is that good a deal.
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    • Posted by JerseyBoy 11 years, 8 months ago
      Huh?

      You assert that faith can be used to justify enforcement of faith upon you, but not reason?

      The bloody Reign of Terror following the French Revolution was done in the name of reason, not faith. Planned famines in the Soviet Union and Maoist China were done in the name of reason, not faith. Nazi atrocities against "sub-humans" were done in the name of reason, not faith.

      You seem to think that if two individuals are both committed to reason, they must necessarily agree, since reason (according to you) "has only one side." And, of course, if they seriously disagree, it must be because one party or the other was employing something other than reason to arrive at a conclusion.
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    • Posted by JerseyBoy 11 years, 8 months ago
      Pascal's Wager does not say one should fake one's belief in God.

      In his "Pensees", Pascal does not suggest that one should mouth Christian platitutudes while intellectually doubting the existence of God at the same time. He is not suggesting that one adopt the stance of a hypocrite.
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    • Posted by JerseyBoy 11 years, 8 months ago
      Which proofs for God's existence can generally be shown to be logically false?

      As for claims and evidence that are extraordinary, many people find the claims of Richard Dawkins extraordinary, yet he has never provided extraordinary evidence.

      Requirements for extraordinary evidence apply equally, whether the extraordinary claims are made by a mystic or a materialist.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
      Regarding "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", Christians would certainly cite raising other people from the dead, being raised from the dead, walking on water, the number of witnesses to him in resurrected form, etc. as such evidence. The amount of evidence that is out there is not a trivial amount. But it is a valid question as to whether the standard of evidence should be a preponderance of the evidence or undeniable fact. It is a matter of faith to make a step from preponderance of the evidence to undeniable fact. Is that leap worth taking? It certainly is a fair question to ask.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
    Regarding the faith comment, covering oneself in the event that a God does exist is not necessarily a bad thing IF one realizes that one is buying an insurance policy for something that you may or may not be able to ever collect on AND is willing to pay the premiums for that insurance policy. Nonetheless, faith in God is a selfish act.

    Religion does validate one's self and is selfish. If one is religious and is willing to accept the consequences, I think that it is possible to live (albeit with difficulty) such a life without contradiction IF one is doing so in gratitude for what amounts to a trade for something that is not tangible. One could go through life living a life of religious gratitude for what they thought was a deal too good to pass up. For objectivists, trades for things that are intangible are difficult to enter into.

    Regarding charity, I don't have any problem asking Gulch citizens for charitable donations of used lab equipment under the following stipulations: a) you do it of your own free will, b) that you realize that my university is as close to what Gulch citizens would want in a university other than Hillsdale College, c) traders are preferred (equipment in exchange for materials, chemical, or bioanalytical services rendered), and most importantly, d) you can use the donation to avoid paying taxes to the looters.

    If charity makes you feel good about yourself, I think that is perfectly reasonable. All my charitable donations (time, money, equipment) go to individuals or organizations with whom I agree philosophically and can have a personal stake in.
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    • Posted by $ Snezzy 11 years, 8 months ago
      I am not a Christian, but I was at one time a churchgoer, and my understanding of the Scripture is that faith--belief in the absence of evidence or in even in contradiction to reason--is crucial. Who was it who said, "I believe it because it is absurd?" Ahh yes, Tertullian, in De Carne Christi, said "prorsus credibile est, quia ineptum est." The translation appearing in Wikipedia is: "it is by all means to be believed, because it is absurd".

      That said, I recently heard of a study on scientific reasoning that included a number of clergy as a "control group" from whom little valid reasoning could be expected. Lo and behold, the preachers came in as the top reasoners. Perhaps the intellectual activity in trying to work through religion is not wasted.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
        To be fair to Tertullian, what he meant was that the proof of Jesus' significance is partly evidenced by his miracles. It is absurd that any human would be capable of resurrection from the dead, walking on water, etc.. However, if these things did indeed happen, then that does speak to Jesus' authority. The only reasonable responses to Jesus are that he is lord, liar, or lunatic. Objectivists choose the latter. Christians choose the former. Each person must use his/her reasoning to grasp certain realities that are difficult to explain like where we came from. I have met many intellectually rigorous Christians. For them, reason is used to make the connection that the complexity of not only inorganic materials, but particularly living beings, is of an order (as in crystalline order) that is beyond the capacity of anyone to duplicate. Believe me, as a materials engineer, I have tried to so, and while I am good compared to humans, I am not ashamed to say that I can comprehend but not design a system of the kind of complexity that exists here. That is partly why I compare myself to Quentin Daniels.

        For the Christian, the theory of evolution, while based in reason, requires even MORE faith than believing in Jesus. If one argues in the big bang theory as explaining evolution, then what or who caused a big bang? Moreover, atheism does require an element of faith. One cannot prove the lack of existence of a creator any easier than the presence of a creator. Atheism is a simpler belief system than belief in a creator. On that point, I think all can agree. Whether there is a creator or not, we as humans are not going to be able to convincingly prove that while we are here on earth.

        Indeed, the intellectual activiity in trying to work through religion or objectivism is not wasted. Several of the founders of America were deists for the most part because they went through a similar intellectual exercise. I am not going to argue that America's founders did not belong in the Gulch.
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        • Posted by JerseyBoy 11 years, 8 months ago
          Crystals are not complex: they have a regular repeating pattern that simply iterates the crystal's UNIT CELL. The emerging pattern of the crystal is not only unchanging, but predictable (i.e., completely specified), given the initial configuration of atoms in that unit cell. Thus, the configuration of every additional cell is completely specified, and thus predictable.

          So a crystalline structure is not complex, but simple — simple, predictable, and completely specified. A biological organism (e.g., a cell) is completely different from the regular, ordered pattern of a crystal.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
            There are 229 mathematically possible different types of crystalline unit cells, and all of them have been observed experimentally! I challenge you to sketch the structure of a monoclinic unit cell like Cu2S, even on a computer. It drove a couple of classmates to wishing to slit their wrists on my graduate crystallography final. It is one thing to be able to predict which structures will be stable by reading a phase diagram. Generating time-temperature-transformation diagrams necessary to make nonequilibrium structures requires the materials science and engineering background of a Rearden (or of me). If you have that expertise or want to get it, contact me.

            When it comes to the order of nanomaterials, there is order, but is of a much shorter range, and consequently predicting that structure is quite challenging. Self-assembly of nanomaterials has been one of my areas of research for the past 5 years.

            All biological structures lack long-range crystalline order and have nanostructures similar to those I am studying. Frankly only a few hundred (perhaps 1000) people me in the world know how to create such biologically-relevant nanostructures. And even people like me know how to make only a few such structures (< 1% of all such possible structures). You will learn that the more you know, the more you still have to learn.
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            • Posted by JerseyBoy 11 years, 8 months ago
              Yawn.

              Nothing you've just posted — including the BS in which you compare yourself to imaginary romantic literary heroes — in any way contradicts or disproves what I posted earlier regarding crystals being repetitive and completely specified in their configurations. Ergo: their structures can be written in SIMPLE, ALGORITHMIC STEPS (e.g., "Do X, then do Y, then repeat the first two steps a millions times"). By definition, since the description of a regular crystal's structure can be compressed into algorithmic steps, it is NON-COMPLEX (or, "simple").

              Look up "Kolmogorov Complexity" if you don't know what I'm talking about. You can also look up the work of Andrey Kolmogorov and Gregory Chaitin regarding algorithmic recursion and complexity.

              Everything else you posted was irrelevant to the issue of biological organisms vs. crystalline "complexity." Regular crystals are completely specified and determined; biological structures (such as eukaryotic cells) are not: given a few amino acids along a polypeptide chain, there is no algorithm or repetitive unit cell or deterministic law by which you could predict what the next amino acid on the chain MUST be. And what is true of amino acids is obviously true of the nucleotides in DNA that code for them.

              You make a beginner's mistake in logic: you assumed that the word "simple" (as used above) meant "easy to discover or grasp". It doesn't mean that at all. "Simple" has a precise, mathematical definition. Similarly, "complex" does not mean "difficult to discover or grasp." It, too, has a precise meaning.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
                I did not make this mistake, JerseyBoy.
                In crystal structures, the subject that I was discussing, simple has a meaning that is equivalent to primitive (meaning that there is no repetition within the unit cell). And yes, I know the difference between simple and complex in the mathematical sense, too.

                And frankly I could teach you quite a bit about protein folding and misfolding, for which deterministic algorithms ARE being developed, because I am one of the ones developing them. Indeed, protein misfolding is mathematically complex (as opposed to the journeyman's idea of complex). I figured out the steps in chicken egg lysozyme aggregation experimentally a couple of years ago (part of one slide I will be discussing in a webinar a week from Thursday at 11 AM Eastern time as advertised in
                http://my.fit.edu/~jbrenner/Nanoadvisor_... on p. 4 on the bottom right. I am featured on pp. 2 and 3. I have a student right now starting a project on the computational modeling of chicken egg lysozyme aggregation. It is actually a pretty good model for what happens to Alzheimer's patients. Believe it or not, the mathematically complex process of protein misfolding is better done by gamers than by computers right now.

                Unfortunately, as part of that talk, I must come clean. The last five years I have been non-mooching, but I got my last grant to fund that work just before reading AS. The work in the slide that I mentioned was post-AS for me.

                I know plenty about Kolmogorov, too.
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                • Posted by JerseyBoy 11 years, 8 months ago
                  Crystal structures are irrelevant to the basic biochemistry of life, which is a system of CODED CHEMISTRY. Living organisms make use of two alphabets — a 64-symbol set of bases in the nucleic acids, and a 22-symbol set of amino acids in the cell body. The former symbolically represents and maps onto the latter without ever directly chemically interacting with it (neither DNA nor mRNA chemically interacts with the amino acids).

                  Both the specificity and the complexity exhibited here is similar to the kind observed in language — which is why linguistic terms such as "code", "information", "transcription", "translation", etc. are inevitably referred to in biochemistry.

                  None of the really interesting apsects of life — the coded-chemistry aspects — have anything to do with crystals, crystallography, or unit cells, which in any case, are all ultimately governed by thermodynamic considerations.

                  Codes are not subject to thermodynamics, which is the very reason there's such a thing as "life" in the first place.

                  So if you were previously wondering why some doubt evolution (at least, Darwin's notion of it), the reason is that codes are products neither of chance nor determinism.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
                    Actually the codes are subject to thermodynamics. The shape, and thus the function, of the nanomaterials on which life is based is noncrystalline, but subject to many of the same rules that crystals are. The problem is that we don't know enough about the surface Gibbs free energy term yet in most cases. For bulk inorganic crystals, the surface Gibbs free energy term is negligible. However, what is interesting about life is that often one gets trapped in local, but not global, energy minima. This is what makes understanding of protein misfolding disorders so challenging, including sickle cell anemia, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, mad cow disease, and a few others. Some are even debating whether Type I diabetes falls into this category now. A purely deterministic model will not do. One must use Monte Carlo stochastic models that are mathematically complex.
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                    • Posted by JerseyBoy 11 years, 8 months ago
                      No, codes are not subject to the laws of thermodynamics because codes are not physical things. The material substrate IN WHICH a particular code might be instantiated is, of course, subject to those laws — as is any material substrate.

                      Morse code is not subject to the laws of thermodynamics. The paper and ink WITH WHICH a particular instance of Morse Code might be instantiated are, of course, subject to those laws: the ink and paper must eventually deteriorate; but that doesn't mean Morse Code deteriorates. A pair of headphones and a code-keyer are subject to the laws of thermodynamics, but the code itself — which is a mapping of one symbol-set (dots and dashes) to another symbol set (the English alphabet) is non-material; hence, not subject to physical laws.

                      Mapping, ideas, concepts, imaginings, daydreams, musings, theories, hypotheses, etc., are not subject to thermodynamics any more than they are subject to gravity or the laws of motion.
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                  • Posted by $ 11 years, 8 months ago
                    "So if you were previously wondering why some doubt evolution (at least, Darwin's notion of it), the reason is that codes are products neither of chance nor determinism."

                    This is an intriguing statement as I continually get reamed for suggesting there may be something other than darwin's evolution. I'd really appreciate learning a bit more. I think I can message you even though your not a producer account. IIf you would reply to me via the address contained it would be greatly appreciated (for personal reference and a timely bit of info for my current project),
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                • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
                  Actually, I have to apologize a little here. The chicken egg lysozyme work got nixed from the webinar on Thursday 4/3 at 11 Eastern time. In the Nanoadvisor link in the previous comment, you need to register for the webinar via Nanoscience Instruments. What got left in was work on ammonium hydrogen phosphate, the material that kids make crystals out of for science fair kits. I can show the chicken egg lysozyme experimental work separately after the webinar is winding down for those interested.
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    • Posted by $ 11 years, 8 months ago
      I agree about Charity, it has to be the individuals free choice to do so. That's why taxation for someone else's needs is theft.

      Hillsdale College? My daughter and I were just talking about Hillsdale the other day.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
        Or Patrick Henry, both excellent schools. If she's not excited about the snow in Michigan, maybe PH would be more acceptable.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
          This is part of why I am preparing a banner proclaiming Florida Tech as today's Patrick Henry University to be used as advertising.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
            PH is where my nephew is going in the fall.
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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
              The Patrick Henry University in the book had to have science and engineering and did not have a Christian emphasis. Patrick Henry College has the following majors as copied from their web site: government (American politics and policy, international politics and policy, political theory, or strategic intelligence), journalism, history, literature, or classical liberal arts. What would have Ayn Rand said about this?
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
        If your daughter is going to a "liberal arts" school, Hillsdale College in Michigan takes no government money whatsoever. It is, however, a Christian school, I think. I am not sure of the denomination. My in-laws used to run Hillsdale Beauty College until selling it (and retiring) a few months ago. If your daughter is considering going to a technical university, you both should contact me. Referrals get the attendee a $1000 discount on tuition. It's expensive compared to a government university, but less than most private schools. The student pays what it actually costs.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 8 months ago
      " it's like buying a lottery ticket. The odds are NOT in their favor, but the price of a ticket is relatively small-so the bet does not break the bank and if somehow you hold the winning ticket the upside is tremendous. There is a cost to suspending one's disbelief, in that if you suspend disbelief and reason for God, why not for other issues and difficult moral dilemmas."
      If the premiums are true belief, though, can you actually will yourself to pay them. Your mind either believes, doubts, or rejects claims. You can't make yourself believe something in exchange for a reward.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
        No arguments there. Christians base their faith on reason to some extent and argue based on a preponderance of the evidence that it is reasonable to pay such a premium. Where objectivists disagree is on a) whether the evidence is comprehensive enough to be convincing and/or b) whether anything should be believed that they cannot prove themselves. Christians would point to the example of doubting Thomas needing to probe Jesus' resurrected hands and side, and then take that historical evidence that it actually happened. Every objectivist would need to probe Jesus' hands and side for themselves.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 8 months ago
    Suppose someone just likes helping other people, not for some other thing it will get them but b/c he intrinsically wants to do it. He's doing it for himself, yes, because he's getting what he wants out of it. But that's different from doing something for others so that they give you some other thing you want.

    Also, I never understood the faith as an insurance policy thing. People believe what makes sense to them. I cannot make myself believe in something I don't in exchange for a reward. If someone offered me millions of dollars if I changed my beliefs, I'd be lying. For example, we don't know there's not a dim start closer than Alpha Centari that's never been identified. It could be true. We haven't measured the parallax on every dim start to determine its distance. But I cannot make myself believe something that I've seen no evidence for and think is probably not true, even if I wanted to.
    So it makes no sense to believe in some religious narrative on the off chance that there is a god and she/he actually cares at all about my guesses about creation in the absence of evidence. Maybe he/she wants me to be a skeptic. Who knows. We're just making it up.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
      Regarding the faith as an insurance policy question, Christians usually point to an immediate benefit of their changed (and improved) lives as personal evidence that God will reward them with much more in the end. This is almost like a down payment for them.

      I have moderated a couple of debates on Christianity vs. atheism vs. agnosticism before. It can be a suprisingly tough debate.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 8 months ago
        I can't imagine they truly believe if they did a blinded study, they would find subtle effects of the hand of god intervening on behalf of those who claim to believe.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
          There is a strong possibility that this is true. However, Christians are generally positive about their lives after making a commitment, and this positive attitude may be somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy (pun completely intended). Certainly people who exhibit a constantly negative attitude find that indeed their lives are worse.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 8 months ago
    I am interested in your example of marriage. I guess I want some clarification. Are you referring to commitment-in that there are times which can be trying in marriage but that the commitment is important to the concept of marriage?
    and how does this relate to Objectivism in your view? That one would think they are Objectivist in general, but without the commitment to living the philosophy, somehow it's less?
    I see both marriage (an institution) and Objectivism (a philosophical system) as separate in identity from the individual. An individual can a la carte parts of Objectivism, but they are not Objectivist. People can be married in name only (legally), but they are not in a marriage. If we look at commitment-then to a philosophical system, it is an individual one. To a marriage, it is aggreement-takes two. I guess I'm asking for further explanation from your comments above, AJ.
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    • Posted by $ 11 years, 8 months ago
      My thinking that marriage is two individuals doing what seems best in their own interests. The partnership/merger, as is subscribed to the Rand quote, each individual would have to be in the relationship because that is what creates happiness in their own lives. Up and Downs, I think, are worked through/endured because of the happiness that person either currently creating in OR is remembered to have brought to ones life. Sure, commitment is part of any contract and so is sincerity. Love can be merely a vest interest cultivated over initial infatuation or time, No? :)
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      • Posted by khalling 11 years, 8 months ago
        Yes, I agree with that.
        Reading the comments I think that the statement I most disagree with, is "hedging one's bets.." or something to that degree. I do not see it as rational-more superstitious. it's like buying a lottery ticket. The odds are NOT in their favor, but the price of a ticket is relatively small-so the bet does not break the bank and if somehow you hold the winning ticket the upside is tremendous. There is a cost to suspending one's disbelief, in that if you suspend disbelief and reason for God, why not for other issues and difficult moral dilemmas. Same is true about marriage, IMO, half a commitment is not being authentic to each other. Neither would it be for both parties to "hang on" in the hopes of re-kindling a deeper commitment.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 8 months ago
          "it's like buying a lottery ticket. The odds are NOT in their favor, but the price of a ticket is relatively small-so the bet does not break the bank and if somehow you hold the winning ticket the upside is tremendous. There is a cost to suspending one's disbelief, in that if you suspend disbelief and reason for God, why not for other issues and difficult moral dilemmas."
          And if the stories about God don't make sense to you but you go ahead and claim to believe anyway, you haven't really purchased a ticket. You've just selected some numbers, but you don't have a bona fide ticket.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 8 months ago
          Regarding "the price of a ticket is relatively small, so the bet does not break the bank and if somehow you hold the winning ticket the upside is tremendous: Regarding marriage, I have to concur with AJAshinoff. We all take risks every day. If we are willing to accept such risk (and cost), then it is like anything else - a trade. Regarding the lottery, that is a tax on stupidity. One knows exactly what the odds are. The fun thing about life is that we don't what the odds are. Christians think their odds are better than the lottery. They may be in error, or maybe they're not.
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