10

The Story You Aren’t Being Told About Iran Capturing Two American Vessels

Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 3 months ago to Government
83 comments | Share | Flag

Ok, so I am not exactly sure this is completely clear and accurate, but the theory fits the scenario better than anything else I have seen.
SOURCE URL: http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-story-you-arent-being-told-about-iran-capturing-two-american-vessels/212937/


Add Comment

FORMATTING HELP

All Comments Hide marked as read Mark all as read

  • Posted by BrettRocketSci 8 years, 3 months ago
    Thanks for posting here Nick. This could be true about Iran's capabilities. It could also be true that our military ships were put in Iranian waters on purpose - to test the reaction of Iran. Sometimes it's to your benefit to make your enemy think you are vulnerable, weak, or stupid...unless you actually are!
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by oregonflyer 8 years, 3 months ago
    There is so much wrong with the administration's version of what happened, the whole thing stinks like the Benghazi story. First they don't know what happened, then Louie Ghomert on FOX admits that the State Department said they called the Iranians and gave them the location of the boats. There are reports (from the Iranians) that they fired the missiles at the carrier task force to keep them from intervening. Supposedly this was recent, but reports have it placed back in December. Then there are reports that the U.S. was transferring a "high value" ISIS commander from Qatar to Bahrain. Will we get the truth? Probably not. This administration are masters at "misdirection". One thing I' pretty sure of is that a disabled GPS wouldn't have been the cause for those two boats being so close to Farsi Island. They were 'manned' not on autopilot and the stretch of water they were in is not that wide shore to shore. The boat commanders could have seen visually if they were in Iranian waters. Just sayin'- there's something wrong with this picture.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
      Indeed, that is basically what has been said all along. This whole situation is just like so many others, it just fades into the wallpaper and will never be resolved. Benghazi used to be the poster boy of lies and misdirection, and this may have taken it's place, but no one was hurt, but easily could have been.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 3 months ago
    Sounds like the Navy should consider using their old Ship's Inertial Navigation System (SINS), with GPS as backup. SINS was accurate enough to rely on for mission execution by the "boomers" to deliver precision strike small nukes on target. GPS systems are small, efficient, and require no expert maintenance, but as the article notes, can be spoofed. Anyone interested in learning about the history of precision guidance systems should read MacKenzie's "Inventing Accuracy."
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
      Doc, even the small
      mini SINs were the size of a closet, and weighed in at a few thousand pounds, and took a lot of cooling and power. I am sure some similar system could be created but our current regime (both military and political) are unable to do something simple like that as any new item must cost billiona and take 10 years to develop as well as have a built in 50% cost over-run. SINS on a boomer were incrediblyy accurate, the mini sins only slightly less. GPS offers a lightweight system, but obviously their transmission system is the weak link. Best solution at this point would be a modification to software to alter the signal characteristics and harden the hacking capability.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 3 months ago
        The mini-SINS should still be housed easily on all but the smallest U.S. Navy vessels, and I think would be an independent smart check system for GPS. It's been a while since I worked with the DSCS satellites that house GPS, but I recall that there were two separate signals; one for commercial use, and one secure, higher accuracy system for military use. I know there was some protest over signal denial at the time, and some were pushing for just one, high accuracy signal. Either the supposed secure signal isn't so secure, or the switch to a single signal has left the system with a big vulnerability There's no fixing stupid.

        At one time, American contractors were incredibly innovative. The original Polaris SLBM control system, called the Missile Instrument Test and Readiness Equipment (MITRE) was lifted from an electromechanical controller used to manage the Pepsi bottling plant. My father was the Lockheed tech who redesigned MITRE for fit and thermal issues, which got him an engineer's position. That ingenuity and common sense seems to be a tragic deficiency in the industry today.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
          Doc, you are correct about the sinals, as I understand it. They explain it with Garmin GPS trackers, as to why you can only get 100" accuracy with them, vice the 10 or 5 foot mil spec. I remember MITRE from my time on 640/Tridents. I would occasionally hang out in MCC with the MT's. I would say you could fit a mini sins on anything 500 tonsor bigger, but these guys were on a swift boat type thing. Barely enough room for the fishing poles...and some .50 cals.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 3 months ago
            Gyroscopic guidance systems with sufficient accuracy for short missions have been around for quite a while. General aviation autopilots had small gyro units incorporated, and those small aircraft are always cramped for space and weight, so a modified aircraft autopilot should work just fine for even Zodiacs.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
              Yes, they would, one would wonder why something along those lines is not used to act as a check and balance. Too much faith in their single technology. And a lack of capability to ask "What if". I find that is true in business as well, single answer solutions are all that are authorized, more is too much work.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 3 months ago
                I'm an "old school" engineer, who's a firm believer in Murphy's laws, one of which is that anything designed to be unbreakable, will eventually break. Lack of a "Plan B" is a sign of designer immaturity or narcissistic egotism. Before GPS, there were significant breakthroughs in laser gyro systems with phenomenal accuracy, and there exist microminiature accelerometers, both of which could be used to manufacture a reliable high accuracy guidance system that would occupy about the space of a cellphone, with no cooling requirements and the power needs of said cellphone.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
                  Indeed, so you have to wonder why are they so stupid and arrogant to assume the one tool they have is foolproof, until it isn't and then we need multi billion dollar boondoggle projects to fund a replacement. Which again will be just the only one, and get hacked as well.
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by ChuckyBob 8 years, 3 months ago
    Jamming GPS would not be that difficult. All you have to do is send a conflicting signal on the GPS frequencies, hopefully with a high gain directional antenna. This would achieve what is termed "capture effect." Spoofing location would be a bit more difficult, but certainly not impossible for a smart organization. I heard through the news (so take it with a pound or two of salt) that the only things taken were the sim cards out of the satellite phones. Is this a big deal? Probably, since this may give the Iranians a lot of intel.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
      The whole system is controlled from one point as to signal strnegh, on and off, coding and by geographical area. The organization in charge is the Department of Defense. since it was first built as a war time force multiplier. the Euratom system the same has the same controls.

      Which is why prepared sailors learn to navigate by tradiitonal methods and are never reliant on only one system.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 3 months ago
    Technology is a two-edged sword. There simply is no substitute for the Mark I Eyeball - and that comes directly from an Air Force Colonel I work with monthly.

    I think what is most sickening was Kerry/Obama's response, but only slightly behind that is Obama's advocacy for Iran - a known sponsor of terror throughout the world.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
    I would back that up a tad to Woodrow Wilson and a bit more previous to him. There was some ground work done first not the least of which was preaching socialism in the Universities. What Marx and Engles predicted was USA being the first not the last but sometimes the first shall be last and the last end up first or some such. Still always include the entire 20th century 1901 to 2000 as the Century of the Great Socialist Wars. It will be remembered by historians more for that than nuclear, computers, and other humdrum stuff.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
      Rather than violently, they seem to be doing it quietly, which seems to take longer... but they are close, we have pretty much a totalitarian state which is all socialism ever produces. And Bankruptcy too..which is coming..
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by oregonflyer 8 years, 3 months ago
    Here's a concept that I haven't heard anyone mention: What if the capture of these two patrol boats wasn't at all about what is being portrayed? While I was watching the news reports and looking at the pictures released of the sailors in total submission, humiliated,apologizing for their mistakes, and saying how benevolent and merciful their captors were,I'm thinking that "there's something wrong with this picture". Then it came to me. Assuming that the Navy isn't totally incompetent and unable to rescue these two boats there's another explanation why the boats and sailors were captured and then released.

    In a word it's called "Jizya", and it's a word that all Americans should learn and understand. A rough definition is extortion, a poll tax, ransom or tribute. I recently heard a woman describe how she and her family had lived in the middle east and were required to pay a "road tax" every year. After they had paid the tax an Arab friend of hers told her that it wasn't a tax for roads, it was Jizya. Jizya isn't new, Thomas Jefferson sent the country to war with the Barbary Pirates, refusing to pay ransom (Jizya) for ships and sailors the Muslims captured. In recent years a good example would be the ships and vessels captured in the Indian Ocean with the crews and cargos held for ransom (Jizya). As details of this incident leak out, where no one really knows what happened, then, it's admitted the State Department called the Iranians and told them where the boats were because they were "disabled", then the missile incident with the Navy ships, something just doesn't add up. Also consider: The Iranians violated the missile agreement and were about to have new sanctions put on them. They need something to "save face", get the possibility of sanctions removed and prove that they are a major power in the area and no one was going to "bully" them. What did the US do? To get the personnel back as well as the equipment, it paid the money that was held in frozen accounts plus 1.7 billion in interest (Jizya), released 7 Iranian Americans held in prison for helping Iran violate the sanctions, also released some prisoners from Guantanamo, maybe turned over a 'high value' ISIS commander and then apologized for violating Iranian waters. Could this be considered Jizya? I'll let you decide.

    Muhammad established that people of other religions have to pay a poll tax to Muslims called the Jizya, as a reminder of their inferior status. There's an air of submission and humiliation involved with it.
    From the Quran: (9:29) "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya in willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
    From the Hadith and Suri:
    Muslim (19:4294) " If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's' help and fight them."
    Bukhari (53:386) "Our prophet, the messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or give Jizya (tribute) and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: Whoever amongst us is killed (martyred) shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master."
    Ishaq (956 & 962): "He who withholds the Jizya is an enemy of Allah and His apostle."-- The words of Muhammad.
    From an Islamic Scholar: "The honor of Islam lies in insulting the unbelief and the unbelievers (Kafirs). One who respects Kafirs dishonors Muslims. The real purpose of levying the Jizya on them is to humiliate them and remain terrified and trembling."-- "Islamic Jihad"- Shaykh Ahmed Sirhindi.

    The State Department is 'spinning' this as a win-win for all parties, but if you listen or read the accounts from the Iranian side they are clearly describing this as a utter defeat and humiliation for the U.S.

    Remember; Thomas Jefferson went to war with Islam because he read the Quran and understood Jizya. I think this Administration understands the Quran too, only it is willing to pay the Jizya. The American people just don't have a clue as to what Jizya is or understand it.

    I will close with this: "If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril."-- Sun Tzu "The Art of War"
    Also: "Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those that fail to learn from history CORRECTLY are simply doomed."
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Bethesda-gal 8 years, 3 months ago
      The issue at question is less the actions of Iran and more the inaction of our naval crew. The North Koreans captured an American naval vessel in the 50s and the captain of that ship was nearly charged with misbehavior before the enemy for letting his ship fall into enemy hands without putting up any resistance. It is very irregular for U.S. military personnel being held against their will to make promotional videos for the enemy. Unless anyone thinks that Iran isn't our enemy.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
        OIn the other hand the Captain of the ship that started the Vietnam War and is now anchored at public display in Bremerton Washington in the spot that used to host a battle ship was promoted given a medal etc. etc etc.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
          The USNS Turner Joy. It needs the blue and yellow stripes of shame painted on the funnel
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
            Yes, but there is so much disinformation about just how it all happened, no one really believes it was staged. Same as UFOs. Dr. Steven Greer is an MD who has been pushing a disclosure project on UFOs and how a lot of the sightings are really earth made machines, and it is a disinformation campaign to muddy things to the point no one can tell real from fake. That is the power of manipulated information. Elections are nothing, no one ever questions the government..war is just as easy, the CIA is well versed in it.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
              The part that convinced me was when the navy fighter pilots who came to assist that ship and the other one found no evidence sightings, radar readings etc of any other watercraft but did report Turner Joy was out of position and in North Vietnam's territorial waters. Nor was any evidence of battle damage produced. That was however used as the excuse for authorized incursions across that line. Not that they weren't assisting the South Vietnamese rebel forces. But the whole thing turned into a economic based exercise in making LBJ and his corporate friends rich. By the end the US military had secured the northern end of Vietnam that's when I left the last time 1971. Then the long retreat from success of sorts started. Something that has continued ever since. In retrospect I see no reason to go to war when the ordained conclusion is, in the end, what? What has changed is the remarkable difference in death rates of US Service personnel. Still most of them go in the left's column but there now numbered in the few to several thousand instead instead of that same number as a monthly entry. Yet we can't secure the middle third of the Arizona border. Besides Kuwait have their been other successes? the former Yugoslav countries seem to have settled down. The chance to settle some issues in Iraq by splitting away Kurdistan was ignored even though Iraq is a fabricated country. Afghanistan has won again as if the country itself has been cast as a place doomed to eterenal failure by the planet. And our sworn enemies (their words not ours) are being given the means to destroy us.
              In retrospect I loved the work those 24 years but other than a paycheck when I looked back at the civilian population who sent us to all those places in the Americas and Asia and Europe I have wonder. What's it all about Alfie?
              Having most of the much vaunted retirement benefits reneged on does not make me a fan of the idea of civilians in charge of government but the current careerists in the military do not excite me overly much either. The country has no morals or values and the military apparently has forgotten their oath of office as well. All but a few units Their may be hope. But I don't see it it happening without leadership and i don't see any leaders on the horizon just looters, moochers, and destroyers. Oh well I'm in my 28thth year of retirement after 24 years of wearing the uniform. Thanks for the monthly check such as it is. That was Alfie's answer to the question. That's what it was all about.

              I cling to the Constitution as I would a life raft or life buoy or life jacket. It is the center of my beliefs from habit and years of service. Around me I see a country that is sinking and attempting to take my ability to stay afloat from me and others like me. And much ado about a sum total of nothing available to those who never learned how to swim. Not a life guard in sight.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
                I agree completely with your confidence issues. That is also reflected in the collective angst that is "the anger" the news idiots blather about, with no real idea of it's roots. Take the Black Lives thing, the FBI kills a white protestor in oregon (which I am on neither side of that point) but where was all the protest? News? They just pretty much write them off as deserving what they get, but a black criminal is protest time, make up story time, scream louder time, burn cities time. The insanity of their pick and choosing of issues, and manipulation makes me ill.

                Speaking of Tonkin though, have you ever seen this article:

                http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhi...
                they actually admit that there were lies and stories told, maybe because McNamara and Johnson are dead...
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Owlsrayne 8 years, 3 months ago
    The following might be of interest to anyone here in the Gulch regarding the above statement:
    "Compared to a normal wave, a time-reversed wave has startlingly different weapon capabilities.
    Such a wave precisely retraces the path of the ordinary wave that stimulated it to be formed. So it possesses an "invisible wire" through space, back to the original position of whatever emitted its stimulus wave.
    Further, the time-reversed wave continually converges upon its invisible "back- tracking" path. It does not diverge and spread its energy, in contradistinction to normal waves.
    Using several simple schemes (particularly pumped 4-wave mixing), extremely large amplification of the time-reversed (TR) wave can be cheaply and readily accomplished.
    A startling weapons capability therefore emerges when amplified TR waves are generated in response to received signals from a distant target:
    (1) If any signal at all can be received from a distant target, a return TR signal of extreme power can be delivered directly to that target Almost all of the transmitted TR signal energy will arrive at and in the distant target, even through a highly nonlinear medium or under scattering conditions. Hardly any of the energy will be lost enroute. If the target is fast-moving, a "lead correction" signal can be calculated and added to steer the return path.
    (2) Since real-time holography can readily be accomplished using TR waves - and without first making holograms, geometrical forms (balls, shapes, hemispherical shells, etc) of energy can be created readily by interferometry (crossed beam techniques). Since the TR wave carriers do not disperse with distance, these interference energy forms can be assembled by crossed TR wave beams at great distances-even hundreds of thousands of miles. The energy appearing in such a distantly created energy form is limited only by the amount one cares to put in at the amplified transmitting end.
    Thus the radar itself now becomes a powerful, all-around weapon. With a TR wave adjunct, once the radar receives a return signal from a target, an extremely powerful TR wave pulse can be generated, and all the energy in that pulse can be unerringly returned to the distant target from which the return was received.
    Even a passive (receive only) radar may be used together with a TR wave adjunct to accomplish the same directed energy destruction of the distant target emitting the signals received by the radar.
    Radio receiver-transmitters may also employ simple TR wave adjuncts to provide a large number of communications jammers and "directed energy weapons," capable of jamming and/or destroying enemy radio transmitters at appreciable distances."
    This is a Google lookup I did base on my scant knowledge of Radar and logical deduction. I believe the Iranians are now a formitable enemy. I hope the Pentagon doesn't have their heads in the sand and bring it to the attention of the idiot Prez. He will probably do nothing.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
      Formidable is just a relative term. What some people have done in their garages for 100.00 takes a 5 year multi billion dollar Pentagon project. That is the real issue with our military. If the Iranian assertion that they brought down the drone by taking it over by jamming it's signal and then misdirecting it's GPS, then they have trashed most of the militarys work of the last 15 years. ne would think they have someone who's only job is to try to trash their projects just to catch these thing, much like software companies hiring hackers to hack their code. But our geniuses in the halls of power are too smart to think that way. You can build an emp generator for less tha 100 that will kill any car built in the last 20 years within 50 yards or so, whats to stop someone from simply scaling up and applying the same logic to other weaknesses like GPS?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by Owlsrayne 8 years, 3 months ago
        I have seen on You Tube some inventors and experimenters developing such devices. Your correct that such devices could be scaled up with very little expendenture of money. I just wonder what happens the next time the Iranians use it again.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
          Oh, I am sure they will find lots of ways to do nasty things, and our glorious leaders will always be a few steps, or leaps, behind. They consider them just dumb ragheads, when there are some really smart folks there, just as in all groups. Never write off someone as stupid just because it suits your perceptions. Imagine if something like that had some range, against commercial aircraft, or even if used against a large substation, it could fry a large chunk of grid.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 3 months ago
    Spoofing signals have a source and they can be traced assuming you know that is what is going on. This is a major problem with GPS especially when it is part of a weapons system. There are coding techniques that can be used to discriminate between authentic and bogus signals but they are not foolproof. These systems should be equipped with a back up inertial reference unit that cannot be jammed by external sources. If there is a discrepancy between the GPS and the IRU countermeasures should be automatically invoked.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 3 months ago
    Interesting and possible. I do think many underestimate Iran's capabilities which makes it more of a possibility. I also don't believe we would ever hear the real truth from this administration or any other for that matter. Personally, I'll wait to see what else surfaces before taking a position on what really happened. Thanks for sharing.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Bethesda-gal 8 years, 3 months ago
      Let's contemplate this. Whether it was a bona fide military technological weakness that Iran has figured out how to exploit, or if it was the U.S. testing Iran's reaction -- do we REALLY want our govt to openly admit EITHER of those scenarios ?!

      I suggest that the deeper problem is that from "I guess those shovel-ready projects weren't quite shovel-ready" to " If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor. Period." Americans have reached the nadir of trust in our federal government's honesty or competence, so that when things happen that the public cannot be told about we citizens just don't trust that what our govt is doing is in our best interest or even more broadly, in the best interest of our country overall. That is a very sad and dire condition in which to be.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 3 months ago
        When we get to the point that our government cannot tell us, the RULERS of the government the truth we set ourselves up to fail. That is the only way self government can work.

        In order to trust we need to be able to verify and if we are never told the truth we can do neither. And if we can do neither we are not self governed, we are ruled by someone who knows better than us serfs.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by Bethesda-gal 8 years, 3 months ago
          So you think there are no circumstances in which information should be kept secret, or top secret ?
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 3 months ago
            Not no circumstances but more secrets equals less self governed and the more ruled over.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by Bethesda-gal 8 years, 3 months ago
              Hmmm. I can see that perspective, but I don't agree. My feeling is that we're not being ruled over as long as we still can vote the bums out. I don't think we need to know (or should know, in many cases) every detail, but should continue to demand the FOIA in enforced (which I have read has had the worst compliance under the Obama administration) and demand more from the media and journalists, and I think that is achieved via citizen journalists and social media.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
                As long as people like HillaryBeast can throw 50 excuses for criminal activity against the wall and see what 5 stick, and then have the mass media endorse it, along with the discredit any independent citizen journalist faces, there is not a lot of hope for any accountability.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 3 months ago
                Could you please explain FOIA?
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by Bethesda-gal 8 years, 3 months ago
                  Of course. Sorry. Inside the Beltway lingo. :-)
                  It is the abbreviation for Freedom of Information Act.
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                  • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 3 months ago
                    Now that I understand the abbreviation I can reply. :)

                    I agree on the enforcement of FOIA but we can demand all we want. Unfortunately government officials only provide what they feel like providing and the only way to enforce it is to file a lawsuit. Most of us do not have the resources for these lawsuits so we are left in the dark. Not only does this happen at the federal level but at the state & local governments too.

                    Our government is out of control which is one of the reasons I believe we are now ruled, not self-governed. The system has become so corrupt, voting the bums out is not working. For 35 years that I have been voting for people who say one thing to become elected and change their position once in office. IMHO we desperately need a house cleaning.
                    Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                    • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
                    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
                      The FOIA coupled with zero oversight also got the Oklahoma City Bomb plans released to the public. McVey wanted to be a Green Beret. He never made it to day one. Somehow though the Little Black Book was made available to him....Fact is it's available to you this very day. Download it right off the internet.. So no not all but some. What is so sacret about the hidden Kennedy documents besides protecting 'LBJ? Those should see light of day.
                      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
                      Indeed, look at the CIA UFO release today, "In light of the new X Files series, we are releasing some material even Mulder could use" which was really a load of elephant dung.. and makes the whole thing a joke, which is what they want.
                      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
        That trust has been eroding since the late 40's. Look at the history of several things: nuclear weapons and capability, UFOs, numerous covert missions that went bad. All indicate a level of restrictive information that ends up leaking out and then a collective "what else were we not told" and both political parties have done this. This collective dissembling led to the great theory of the "Government behind the Government".
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by Bethesda-gal 8 years, 3 months ago
          So what is your suggestion for what would work better ?? Put ALL our government's information out there so all our enemies know best how to defeat us ? That's called ISIS, Iran and Snowden. That is certainly NOT what I want for myself or my country. Perhaps my view is somewhat more trusting b/c I live in the greater DC area and I know many people who are entrusted with security clearances and I know their level of integrity and patriotism. I think the fault more lies with the media and our fellow sheeple who don't pay attention when wrong-doing is exposed and those leaders get away with it, a la Benghazi.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
            Yes, that is the conundrum. You do need a certain amount of classified access, but when the "dear leaders" go nutso and decide everything is classified, including their own misbegotten exploits, then you get a backlash the other way. From the 1940's on, our government has built a bigger and deeper well of secrecy, and since we do not know what is all in the well, we generrally react in what does leak out. The Hillary Beast thing is a prime example of why government cannot be trusted, she keeps blowing off the whole deal, and any punishment is now a purely political decision, vice a judical one, that basically has nutered the whole security/classification idea. If Hillary can ignore it, then why can't everyone else? That is why the CIA and FBI internally want her skewered, they know this. Our politicians are too dumb and self centered to understand that, and arrogant too.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
      Yes, I wasn't sure of the source, they are unknown to me, seems they may be trying to be independent with a lean to the left, but the referenced article in the Aviationist was accurate so I am thinking this is a fairly accurate assertion of the possibility. In addition, as you said, I trust nothing from this administration beyond political posture, so if Iran did do it that way, they would never wan to admit to it, it is pretty sad if true.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by ohiocrossroads 8 years, 3 months ago
        The lean to the left seemed pretty obvious to me, considering the offhand insinuation of torture they attributed to the prison at Gitmo:
        "The U.S. Navy’s installation at Guantanamo Bay has been the scene of the worst treatment of detainees by the US government in decades. The sailors captured by Iran were not waterboarded, deprived of sleep or food, sexually abused, or otherwise tortured. The United States does not have the moral authority to object to how another nation treats detainees."

        This is context-dropping on a scale that Ayn would have noted. The detainees at Gitmo are not soldiers; they are spies, and are not covered by the protections of the Geneva Convention. The US sailors are uniformed members of an armed service, and are covered by the Geneva Convention, which prohibits photographing of prisoners for purposes of propaganda, and the extraction of forced confessions. Then the article goes on to indict the moral authority of the USA after making a speciously false comparison. This is a classic left-wing bait and switch debating tactic.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
          Nope, you are correct, it is hard to find any report that is not skewed one way or another.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
            Yes but i want to read it myself does it truly exist?
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
              Michael, 9th paragraph down in this article (the one at the topic, in case it does not work).

              http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-stor...

              The LA times article does not seem to say what they slapped together, seems like some skewering was done. I do not vouch for this mintpress site, I do agree with the overall idea that it seems Iran is able to neutralize systems. That seems pretty much proved at this point...

              http://www.latimes.com/world/middleea...
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
                The mint press formerly known as the fifth column press had the following gratuitous statement mixed in with absolutely no proofs, cites, or explanations offered. Neither did the LA Times which didn't use the following paragraph

                "The U.S. Navy’s installation at Guantanamo Bay has been the scene of the worst treatment of detainees by the US government in decades. The sailors captured by Iran were not waterboarded, deprived of sleep or food, sexually abused, or otherwise tortured. The United States does not have the moral authority to object to how another nation treats detainees."

                Looks to me like more left wing fascist bullshit which is curious since it's their President running Guantanamo.

                The ability to neutralize the systems is much more plausible they may be rag head but as people like American Sniper Kyle....said they may be ragheads bu they are not stupid.

                But that rest of it is pure pravda just like the unsubstantiated story about Ayn Rand lying to immigration.

                That publication was advertised as main lestream reporting in the Rand accusation turned out to be fringe looney publications and then had the freaking Guardian as the transmittal mechanism which means comptely suspect.

                Damn shame dragging in the paragraph above it makes the rest of the article equally suspect.and useless as support for any conclusions though I would say the 'idea' is more plausabile than anything the M2F meda has come up with. If nothing else would make a good Brad Thor novel. Thumbs up and thanks
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
                  I agree, and posted it originally with misgiving as to their truthiness. But the part of the basic reasoning seemed solid. Since it is so hard to clear the BS filters, it is so hard to ever find some clear truth.
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 3 months ago
    They've known about this vulnerability for years--for nearly twenty years, in fact. Cf. Tomorrow Never Dies, with Pierce Brosnan, Jonathan Pryce, Michelle Yeoh, Teri Hatcher, Ricky Jay, Goetz Otto, Judi Dench, et al.; EON Productions, 1997. The villain-in-chief in that piece used precisely this method to set Britain and China in deadly hate the one against the other (to paraphrase Shakespeare). Only the quick thinking of two secret agents, one from each country, prevents World War Three.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 3 months ago
    I agree with Ron Paul, we should not even be in the mid east and then there would be no problem. The US needs to mind its own business, which it is not doing any too well, rather than interfere in foreign disputes.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Bethesda-gal 8 years, 3 months ago
      History has proven that stance to be unsustainable over 50 years ago and it is even less so today, given the interconnectedness of the world.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 3 months ago
        I do not understand what stance to which you refer.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by Bethesda-gal 8 years, 3 months ago
          Isolationism.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 3 months ago
            To trade with all and not interfere in foreign political internal affairs is far from islolationism. Having 900+ US military bases in 140+ countries is interfering in foreign political internal affairs. Which means, we apparently are talking past each other. Please explain what you mean by isolationism.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by Bethesda-gal 8 years, 3 months ago
              What I mean is that because of inextricably linked global trade no country is an island. Therefore "their" business IS our business. Obama policy of leading from behind, if at all, has given us the rise of ISIS, which then led to San Bernadino and the rest of the ISIS-inspired shootings in the US, as well as the Paris shooting. The U.S. not being the benevolent 'parent' of the world is not a good option, as we see today. When the bad actors of the world know there is NO threat ftom U.S. reaction then anything bad is possible. No, we can't be the world's policeman, but more like the world's teacher who might give a pop quiz at any time so everyone has to be on best behavior at all times, as opposed to Lord of the Flies that we're living through now.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 3 months ago
                I disagree with your conclusions. The best current book on the subject, in my opinion, is Ron Paul's book "Plowshares." He gives an excellent analysis and insight as to doing more of the same (which is what we are doing) will get us more of the same (which is what we are getting). Perhaps it is time to try a different road.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
              It is the very issue of trade that requires some presence in some places. You cannot have huge assets in place and not have some influence on the government that controls both the access and the infrastructure, look at Venezuala, a classic case of failed influence. As long as other countries do the "come to us and invest" game, then turn around and seize that investment when it becomes lucrative, hoping to loot it for their own use, there is a need for some forms of security. "To trade with" implies a fair and secure system, which has not come about in any time I can find. A lot of pre WW2 German industry was the result of American investment, which was nationalized when the Nazis came to power. To see the success of the idea of "isolationism" look at the years 1920-1939 when the US really did just as you suggest. It was not successful then, and would not be now. You need a balanced foreign policy that takes into account all parties, as well as keeping business in line ethically. The problem is, no government ethics will match business ethics and neither is ever quite well thought out.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 3 months ago
                Seems to me things went pretty well from the country's founding until WWII without the US acting as world police. And I'm not sure that we should draw a conclusion from one incident, that being WWII. We have had our fingers in many places since and I for one don't believe we helped our cause at all. Of course I cannot prove that because we were in not out, but it doesn't seem that we've successfully stopped what is going on now. And we certainly did not stop other countries from fighting. Just saying.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
                  We have had our fingers in lots of places since, no denying it. First, the Nazi and Japanese threat (which was real), then the commie bastard threat (which was sort of real and which was amorphous enough to fit a lot of agendas that did not see the light of day), now the Islamic threat (which is real, but has been engendered by the previous policies, and also has a trail going back to WW2 Nazi Germany). There are a lot of interlocking issues that make it complicated to ever find a time that things could all have been packed up and sent home.
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 3 months ago
                I know of no countries that have military bases in the US. We trade with all of them. Why do we need military bases in other countries?
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
                  Result of WW2 and going to stop one danger each way, took bases and deals, which you should realize almost never get returned. Comes down to either fighting Russia on their side or ours, ever seen Red Dawn? (The original, not the crappy remake). Is it right? I don't know, it seems it would be nice to pull in all our spines and hope the fish leave us alone, but that never seems to happen. Wishful thinking doesn't not stop the bad guys.
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 3 months ago
                    It goes a lot further back than WWII. Given the war history of the US (at war virtually every year of its existence), then add to this bellicose behavior the land grabs one after another starting in 1803, why other countries do not like us becomes easy to follow. In my frequent international travels, I always make clear my nonmilitary position and the attitude of people toward “the American” warm considerably. I am sure if other nations had military bases in the US, we would have an active resistence movement.
                    Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
        You are correct, 100 years ago, you could turn your back on the world. Today, both business and social interests require interconnected and stable relationships. It is the arrogant, child like state of Islamic extremists that spur the issues, in addition to the ham fisted attempts by many governments over the last 100 years to control and manipulate a big chunk of the world. 2 world wars have proven the fallacy of ignoring what is going on in the world, as it will inevitably come to vist. Look at Britain in 1938 and Chamberlains "Peace in our time", which only encouraged Hitler to take more countries.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 3 months ago
          The world has never was such that one country could turn its back on another, especially a hundred years go. But nobody is advocating that, and it is a strawman. The position is trade with all (which is not turning our backs) but get our military bases out of foreign countries.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  

FORMATTING HELP

  • Comment hidden. Undo