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  • Posted by starznbarz 10 years, 5 months ago
    Years ago a guy from down the road stopped to show me his rifle, an AR variant that had every doodad that could be attached, attached. He was quite proud of this 20 pound anchor and said that when TSHTF this would be what he would be armed with, then he wanted to know what I would be using when it all went bad. I told him I was partial to a old, scoped Mossberg .22 along with an old 9 shot .22 revolver, he did`nt actually laugh at me, (wise choice) but he blurted "what are you gonna do with that?" simple answer - I can carry 1000 rounds in a couple of pockets, shoot you in the ear from 200 yards out, feed me & mine every day and still be able to go to ground with meds and other essentials in a backpack that weighs less than 500 rounds of ammo for your rifle...
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 10 years, 5 months ago
    It is funny, when the media described the ~4,000 rounds of ammo the recent San Bernadino shooters had, I thought, I probably have that much, and so do many people. It sounds like a lot if you keep a single revolver in your night stand for home defense, or a single rifle/shotgun for hunting and never go practice.

    I buy it in bulk boxes, and try to limit the guns I have to similar calibers to avoid a bunch of different cartridges. What is the big deal? If you go out shooting for a few hours, it is easy to go through several hundred rounds. I don't feel like buying it each time I go out. Why not have a bunch at home?

    If it were necessary to have a basis for comparison, which it is not, how many rounds do police officers use 6 months in practice? How many do competitive shooters go through? How many rounds on average did any terrorist shooter in the US use in the act of a crime? a few hundred? few boxes? How does worrying about this quantity affect any criminal result?
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    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
      "How does worrying about this quantity affect any criminal result?"
      Thinking about San Berdoo, the number of rounds is just media scare tactics trying to herd the public against self preparation and defense.
      In terms of the question of this topic, its in the interest of my self preparation and if the discussion helps anyone else's self preparation, so much the better. I am interested in the decision making process, not how many boxes are in anyone's gun safe.
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    • Posted by Steven-Wells 10 years, 5 months ago
      The pen is supposedly mightier than the sword.
      My pen alternative includes various laser and ink-jet printers, and I keep many thousands of rounds of 24–32 pound (and other weights) in my paper ammo supply. And I practice constantly. Just in case.

      Other than cost and availability issues for .45 ACP, I don’t see any reasons not to be similarly provisioned for my sword alternative. Practice is important there, too. Just in case, in a land where the EPA has spent millions on guns, body armor, camouflage equipment, unmanned aircraft, amphibious assault ships…
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  • Posted by wmiranda 10 years, 5 months ago
    Enough is plenty. When I carry a Bersa 380, I used to carry one in the chamber and one full magazine. These days I carry a spare magazine. If you need more than one to defend yourself, you might as well be in a firefight. After San Bernardino, when I carry a 9mm with 17 rounds, I still carry a spare magazine. In the case of San Bernardino, the first police officer arrived in about 3 minutes, yet, we saw the result. When carrying smaller amounts of ammo, ammo discipline is absolutely necessary. You don't fire for the sake of making noise or to get lucky. Therefore, in that type of situation if you shoot and make each count, enough is plenty. To achieve this you have to think it and practice it in the range. Anyone can send 10 "to whom it may concern" rounds down range in less than 5 seconds. And remember, you will be responsible for every round you miss.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
      Thanks for the comments, wmiranda. I completely agree regarding using discretion when you have limited rounds available. Will you elaborate on why you now think it important to carry 35 rounds instead of 18? (Or is it 33 and 17;^)
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      • Posted by wmiranda 10 years, 5 months ago
        First a little info., I live in Florida in a tourist area visited by millions yearly. My view may be over simplistic to some people. When I used to carry a single load, I looked at carrying for self defense mainly. Therefore, if I would have had to use my gun, it would have been to defend myself in an assault, robbery or home protection. More than likely, one or two shots and wait for the police to arrive. Then for years now we have been hearing of threats of attacks in the U.S. mainly government and military targets. Of course now is soft targets and innocent people. So in my mind, I think that if I have to use my gun, it could be in a situation in which my life or that of others is in danger not by a robber but a demented individual or rabbid jihadist, one or more. Therefore, one or two shots and wait for the police may not work out well. An extra magazine is small and compact, not adding much weight and if I am ever in that type of situation I don't have to worry so much about running out of ammo so soon before help arrives. I was twice in the military and that's enough for me. I don't want to be a vigilante or a cop wannabe. But if something like in Paris happened here and I'm in a position in which I can legally assist and render aid to law enforcement confronting a Paris type of attack, I'm in. I'll probably be wishing I had two extra magazines with me.
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        • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 5 months ago
          I think the cops, in that situation, would probably shoot anybody who's not a cop with a gun in their hand. Just a thought. Using a firearm is a last resort, as I'm sure you know, too. I just see situations like if I take my kids to a movie theater or shopping mall and the place gets hit with the followers of the religion of peace. Even if you're well-armed, you'd have to be strategic in your moves. Hide in a place they don't expect you to be. If they get too close for comfort, let em have it. If at all possible, run for it ASAP.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 4 months ago
            Police are well aware of non uniforms for one good reason. Most detectives are plain clothes. Most police however are like most military people. They have never experienced two way live fire exercises. That goes back to a proper and 'often' training regimen.
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          • Posted by wmiranda 10 years, 5 months ago
            You are exactly correct! In the scene you describe, the people with me and those around me are my immediate concern and when police arrive, it's best to follow their instructions to the "t". The situation I described in which I said "I'm in", that would be if and only I were asked or an officer was in need of assistance, I would (at least I hope) assist without hesitation.
            To think of it, if we were under such attack, I would hope we all say "I'm in."
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  • Posted by SBilko 10 years, 5 months ago
    We must stop trying to justify such things. The fact is that the amount of ammo I have or the number of guns I have, what kind, what for, are nobody's business but my own. That is the position we must communicate to the gun-grabbers. As soon as we try to justify, we lose.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 5 months ago
      I am actually relieved to see relatively little gun-boasting going on in this thread, SBilko. It makes me squirm when people detail their firearm possessions online.

      The discussion of 'how much ammo' is entirely different. I am really mulling over the advice 'to add an extra clip' when carrying, since the assumptions of use cases have changed.

      Jan, moot for the CA gal, but still interesting
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    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
      I understand your point, SBilko. My question was asked to make my own decision making on how much I need easier and more economically sound, tapping some of the knowledge of more experienced people here.I hoped to learn how to determine how much I need using my own limited resources. This is a public forum, however, and there are google tools used in the background, so I am not looking for anyone to share any personal details.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 10 years, 5 months ago
    A lot behind this question, and it depends on what you're preparing for. To maintain proficiency, it's a good idea to keep several hundred rounds of your selected caliber on hand. If you have survivalist mindset, having a thousand rounds of rimfire (22 long rifle and/or 22 magnum) ammunition, 200-300 rounds of shotgun ammo (12 or 20 gauge), and a thousand rounds each of selected high power rifle and handgun ammunition should keep you prepared for any circumstance and well able to hunt for provisions. I suggest that even people who don't own a gun buy ammunition of the most popular calibers, as if things really do fall apart, ammo will be a valuable medium of exchange (the new currency, so to speak).
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  • Posted by Eyecu2 10 years, 5 months ago
    The rule that I follow for my ammo needs is 1000 rounds for each gun that I own. Except for for my .22s for which I stock 10k for each gun. More over I been playing with making Black powder for awhile now to feed my old smoke sticks.
    I really need to get into reloading as I would hate only be able to use my BP toys.
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  • Posted by bradberry1984 10 years, 5 months ago
    You can never have enough Ammo. Just rotate your stock and use moisture absorbing packets so it will store longer. Also, keep your ammo in a safe place. I keep mine in a separate gun safe. I know people that generally try and keep 3000 rnds per gun regardless of caliber. Practice, practice, practice...Keep your powder dry!
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  • Posted by term2 10 years, 5 months ago
    I would say that one can learn a lot from watching "Walking Dead" (replace the Zombies by the hordes of entitled people trying to get whatever they can) and "Jericho" ( what happens when government disappears and a town tries to defend itself from attackers). The fact these shows exist indicates that breakdown of government and the upswing of terror and gangs are on the minds of people for sure.

    I am trying to be proactive and accumulate what I will need when the system breaks down. The biggest problems I have uncovered will be from the government people and others trying to take what I have saved and accumulated to keep themselves going. Defense against the government will be very difficult and probably get me killed (WACO). Hiding in plain sight is probably the way to go as long as it lasts (and the cheapest defense). Home defense is the next thing, which means a lot of bars on the windows and doors, and structural improvements like walls and gates. Freedom from utility failures (use of solar power, pellet stoves, and portable radio communication), and at least some freedom from having to go out for food ( live in farming areas, or grow you own hydroponic veges). Its a daunting possibility overall. We are so dependent on each other at present.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
      If you plan to hunker down, then super insulation should be a priority (dependent on your local climate, of course.)
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      • Posted by term2 10 years, 5 months ago
        I agree. Somewhat hard to do if you already have a house, but there are a few things to do for sure. I already use solar for heating water, and have a special room that stays warm in winter. Also, a basement works well for that too.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 5 months ago
    I have guns. My wife and I train with guns. It uses lots of ammo. But I have an untouched back-up stash. It will be used only for self defense, but if I use it up it means that either the military has gone to the darkside or there is gang warfare in my neighborhood. Either way, no matter how much ammo we have, we won't survive. (I know there are other scenarios, but I'm making a point.) There's no use kidding myself, at my age I'm not joining up with a group, but at least we'll go down fighting. It gives me the creeps to think about it, but then, I never thought I'd ever see what the country has become.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
      Same here, Herb.
      If I had the capital I'd be building Atlantis, but I don't know where.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 10 years, 5 months ago
        I keep saying, let's go take Venezuela!
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        • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
          If it was that easy, it would be the newest US territory.
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          • Posted by $ Thoritsu 10 years, 5 months ago
            Why encourage US imperialism? Let's Gulch the place, and then take it over.
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            • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 5 months ago
              Freedom & Thor:
              The skeptic in me says it's not possible even if one had the funds. However, Over the years I have learned to never underestimate the ability of intelligent people to fulfill their greatest desire. There have been substantial proposals and even a possibility of start-up money, but it is in the pre, pre, possible stages. I doubt if I'll see it before death or dementia gets me.
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              • Posted by $ Thoritsu 10 years, 5 months ago
                I get the impression I am younger than many regulars here. I turn 50 this year. We might be able to make a good start by the time I expire.

                Something has to happen in the US, or this place is going to be a socialist nightmare!
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                • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 5 months ago
                  As to age, I'm guessing I'm either the oldest or close to it. I hope you're wrong about the socialist nightmare, but you're probably not.
                  At 50, I was just hitting my stride.
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                  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 10 years, 5 months ago
                    Stride? maybe, but I dorked-up my knee in soccer on Sunday morning...somehow, so striding will have to wait another few days.
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                    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
                      You could still play American football since 80% of the time is just standing around choreographing the savages end zone dance..
                      (grin)
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                      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 10 years, 5 months ago
                        Totally agree. I used to play a men's pickup game Sunday mornings in my 20s and 30s...sprint-1 : stand-3, and the retired high school football stars were the laziest of all. Soccer, rugby and ultimate frisbee guys were the most reliable. However, smashing people on the line is a pile of fun!
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                        • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
                          When I was in NZ, a friend from the UK suggested we watch a televised NFL game together. Fortunately, there was also some beer. I decided to entertain myself by using a stopwatch to time the actual amount of time that there was active play. iirc, it was about 39 minutes during the 3 hours elapsed time. I learned to enjoy watching rugby and Aussie rules football. Much more stamina, conditioning, and action (in the players, not me;^).
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                          • Posted by $ Thoritsu 10 years, 5 months ago
                            Love rugby. We tried to get a side started in New London CT, but failed to get numbers. We practiced and drank a lot though! Difficult to find a team now, without traveling all the time. I'm sticking with soccer and judo for now. Lot less injury, oddly enough pretty much none my whole life from judo.
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  • Posted by brando79az 10 years, 5 months ago
    I am limited by money and storage. If I had more of those I would store more. However, if I had more money I would also use more ;) which would make me buy more. Beyond money and storage constraints, it just depends on personal needs. Do you own firearms only for defense? Or hunting? The apocalypse? Buying ammo in bulk is also cheaper. Buy in bulk and slowly use it. Until another sale.
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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 10 years, 5 months ago
    10,000 rounds per gun.

    Keeping in mind, 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 weighs about 38 pounds, I'll not be carrying a lot!!!!
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    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
      "I'll not be carrying a lot!"
      At least not without some assistance ;^)

      Why 10k rounds?
      If you have two guns of the same caliber (e.g., pistol and carbine) is it still 10k per gun?
      Thanks for the reply, jjj.
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      • Posted by jimjamesjames 10 years, 5 months ago
        More or less. (mostly less) I carry a Glock 19, 9mm, my wife carries a Springfield XD, 9mm (and I have a backup Glock 19,) so I figure a few thousand here, a few thousand there will take care of my needs. I do love my AKs and have quite a few cases for them. And we shoot off our back deck weekly, so too much is still not enough!!
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        • Posted by bradberry1984 10 years, 5 months ago
          I agree. Sometimes the best way is to limit the different calibers you shoot. I have way to many for most people. 10k rounds is not unusual. When you go to Wallmart or wherever you buy ammo, just pick up a box or two or three every month and you will be surprised out how much ammo that adds up over time. Date your boxes and rotate your stock. If you shoot or train on a regular basis, the more ammo you can have the better.
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  • Posted by Animal 10 years, 5 months ago
    Depends on who is asking. If the question comes from a government functionary, or a belligerent progtard making a petulant demand for justification, my reply is "none of your damn business."

    But since this query, in this forum, is out of genuine curiosity, I would say "as much as I want." The key point is I, not anyone else, will decide how much I need.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
      Right, what you do specifically is your business. I was asking to learn more about how to determine what is right for me.
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      • Posted by Animal 10 years, 5 months ago
        Well, I can tell you what's right for me, and you can draw conclusions from that.

        Mrs. Animal and I shoot a lot of 16 yard trap, so we buy 12 gauge AA Light Target and 16 gauge Fiocchi target loads in 250-round cases and generally have at least one full case plus some around.

        I generally buy XM193 5.56mm ammo for our AR-15s in 1000-1200 round lots and usually have 4-5k rounds around at any given time.

        At the moment I probably have 5000 rounds of .22LR (CCI Green Tags are almost impossible to find these days!) Also probably 500 rounds of .45ACP, 500 .45 Colt, 300 or so .243, .30-06, .338 Mag, .45-70, .260 Remington and so on. I think Mrs. Animal keeps about 2-300 rounds for her .357 and her .40. Add to that a bunch of odds and ends for guns we don't use as much.

        Our rule of thumb is to have a year's supply for recreational shooting of all types, for all guns we use regularly.
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  • Posted by Donald-Brian-Lehoux 10 years, 4 months ago
    Stationary LOTS, on the run 500 rounds of 22 Magnum and all you can carry from the dead people you will encounter. 9 mm is the military standard, plenty of ammo, 40 mm police carry this. Just wait until most of the dying is done and just collect it then.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 4 months ago
    For a family of four, 2 adults, 2 teens, 4 meals a day, 2000 cals each/day....how big is your neighborhood, and how much ammo does your neighbor have?
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
    If you stay practiced with your firearms, you probably go through 1000 rounds a year easy. I know I can blow that much when I take my kids out to the range. I also buy in bulk (500 or 1000 rounds at a time) except for the expensive personal defense ammo.
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  • Posted by slfisher 10 years, 5 months ago
    You're looking at it the wrong way. Buy reloading equipment and supplies and make your own.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
      OK, still need to know how much to make, so I have enough components and the right dies.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 4 months ago
        First thing is don't be a collector bring the requirements down to specific needs. for Example. .22 cal in Short, Long, and Long Rifle. If you have opted for a (legal) sound suppressor for your .22 caliber rifle or pistol that leaves out revolvers and leaves out .22 Long Rife. Like any other caliber the bullet must be subsonic.Two ways to make sound plus one. The initial explosive force, the sonic boom of a a bullet breaking the sound barrier, and the mechanical action. In readily available ammunition .22 and .45 caliber most often meet those standards. A .45 caliber comes also in .45/.22 with interchangeable barrels. reducing the amount of weapons needed once again. BUT it depends where in the world you are located. Much of the world is enamoured for strange reasons with 9 mm. and that caliber is dependent on bullet type to be of any use. Life is not crap rap and being a poseur. 115 grain semi jacketed hollow points make it somewhat acceptable. Military ammunition means enough on hand to spray each target with multiple hits none of which can be at body armor. The price you pay for going hollywood and leaving real life behind. In North America I opt for the .45/.22 Long Slide and long extended barrel with a .45 concealed carry version such as the ASP. Snake shot also an option but Glaser Safety slugs actually a mini propelled grenade is a worthy choice.

        Revolvers come into play with the higher more powerful calibers and cartridge loads. The actions with a long barrel can take the punishment after that it's a question of can your hand take the punishment. 8 3/8" barrel in .357 one of the .38 family and the compromise is a .38 Plus P round. 225 grain SJHP. The .44 magnum pistol hosted for tunnel rat purposes at one time a suppressed cartridge using an internal piston but with acceptable reduced range and stopping power. Who makes that round these days? No one I know about. that brings us to other pistol cartridges and without the need for sound suppression and with the need for suitable munition supply that means no less than .40 or 10 mm

        Best compromise for a single small gun? .45/.22 combination.

        the best alternative ever made was the M1 carbine of WWII/Korea fame. A hot pistol cartridge with a much longer barrel on a small stock . Improved range and accuracy but still in the realm of pistols. which brings us to long barrel weapons.

        Shotgun? 12 gauge with #4 Buck at 27pellets in .17 caliber vs a 00B's 9 pellets in .22 caliber. My old Topper had interchangeable barrels with .410 but was a single shot break action. Since we're not talking gamebirds and can add slug rounds the actions other than Browning SA are side and double barrel. A slide mechanism can be combat loaded by turning it upside down (left hand and inserting into the tube while one round is still chambered with right hand. Safety switch should be on. Medium ranges and pellets can be bounced off any hard surface and will pick up secondary projectiles aim point is half way between target and shooter to gain the proper angle of fire. Assuming a hard enough surface it works for going around corners too.

        Long barreled rifled weapons. Whatever fits the neighborhood. Semi automatic versions of military rifles are sort of red flags... Standard area hunting weapons don't cause much int he way of excitement unless your talking .577 or .600 Nitro Express elephant guns. Scopes no big deal but laser dots are. Most common is a Model 94 Winchester lever action in .30-30. Medium range brush gun or similar. One .22 rifle and one other for distance shooting.

        Your reload needs are now potentially cut to .45 pistol and/or .38./.357 revolver, 12 gauge and perhaps .410 shotgun,and two rifle calibers six in total.

        For the .45/.22 get extra barrels. and firing pins.

        Back to sound suppression. The weapon firing sound gives a straight direction to location. The sonic boom of the bullet makes a 45 degrees to each side sound print. Others tend to to look to the shooters right or left depending which ear picked up the sound of the bullet passing by. No extra charge for the physics lesson.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
          Thanks for all the details, MichaelA. Will probably have other questions after I digest it a bit. Please let me know what factors you consider on how many rounds.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 4 months ago
            Everyone else covered that quite thoroughly. My only standard is there is nothing quite so useless as an unloaded weapon. I'll give a graphic example.

            Standard load for US Army Infantry in the 1970's was one magazine 20 rounds locked in the weapon and six magazines on the pistol belt of the web harness 7 x 20 = 140. Minus one round per magazine to keep the spring from weakening but the bullets went in some pocket

            Bandoleers of stripper clips were 7 x two of ten rounds each. or 140.

            We changed form M14 most semiautomatic to M16 with full automatic capability and then to the 30 round magazine four or 120 plus 30 for one in the weapon for 150. minus one or even two to save the spring.

            Here's the real load out.

            As many magazines as could be scrounged. the bandoleers carrying 20 round magazine in each of their pockets except two those carried grenades. Two of those crisscrossed under the web gear and over the shirt. That added 10 of the 20 round magazines or sometimes twelve depending on personal preference so let's call it 12 x 19 208 extra rounds total now 358 ready to go. In the rucksack two extra bandoleers for 280 more. never less than one extra.

            Why? Supply systems could not show up like magic helicopters or no helicopters due to a number of factors. weather, availability of aircraft, need for suppression of incoming not friendly fire.

            Rate of fire of was too often one Mad Minute at full auto as fire suppression and superiority coupled with a fair amount of adrenaline took control. Look up the statistics on rounds to make one kill. That will put you in shock.

            Point is an empty weapon is just a really poorly designed club.

            Translate to the Oregon type of situation. One side can literally fire until their weapon barrels melt and then pick up a fresh weapon. One side cannot.

            Taking and holding ground is a symbolic statement but not a useful technique for being around to explain the symbolism.

            And that's not counting the Jackboot Janet Von Flamethrower solution of fuck 'em burn everyone and let God sort them out. Ask the children of the Waco incident. But it suits a certain fascist mentality. No brain power there. All they needed to do to remove the leadership was have the local gun dealer call up and say "got a new shipment you might be interested in examining."

            Those agents if that's what you want to call them are all gone and retired. But their deeds live in infamy.

            One wonders how Obama will or worse a revival of Clintonism would handle the situation. And it may be those folks are doing exactly that ...letting the government make the statement for them. A demonstration of fascism as just signed into law by the President instead of law enforcement as used to be required when we had a Constitution...and a Bill of Rights.

            You seriously contemplating voting for the left again?
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  • Posted by $ TomB666 10 years, 5 months ago
    I say buy as much as you think you might possibly need for self defense, then double that, then double again so you have something of value to trade when the gov's script becomes worthless. Then when ever you go to the range to practice replace what you used. Stores such as "Cheaper Than Dirt" (http://cheaperthandirt.net/) are among those who have sales on bulk ammo from time to time so it is a bit easier to stock up.
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