Votes for sale! Free Speech for sale!

Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 5 months ago to Politics
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Free Speech IS for sale and the final auction is currently in progress. Cui Bono or follow the money started in 1819.

First Step - Corporations Are People

The 1819 Supreme Court Decision in Trustees of Dartmouth College v. Woodward. Dartmouth College had been granted a corporate charter by King George III awarding land and the right toadminister the college. In 1819 the trustees deposed the college president.

The New Hampshire legislature passed legislation taking away the college's King George charter, putting the State of New Hampshire in charge making it a State college.

The Supreme Court ruled while all political ties had been severed with King George III as a goverenment, the charter still constituted a contract with King George, the person.

The Supreme Court held this contract fell under the Contracts Clause of the US Constitution which forbids laws overturning contracts among persons, and held it applied to corporations as well. Dartmouth College remained private and under control of trustees.

Rights of contract and property now applied to corporations." (and did not limit the type nor the purpose.)


Second Step - Corporations as Citizens

The First Clause of the 14th Amendments you will recall set forth the privileges, immunities of citizens, banned depriving life, liberty, or property without due process and banned denying any person equal protection of the laws.

Corporations then challenge the powers of the State Governments under 14th Amendment.

The corporations held the 14th separated the properties of group entities from individual properties of their members for purposes of protecting investors from claim s against the corporation and also held the properties of the group with the properties of the members. Since corporations were persons they had the same constitutional protections as persons had"...(in effect wanting to have it both ways.)

"...in 1886 the railroads brought" suit to the Supreme Court in Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad. In Santa Clara County. Using a tax exemptio that allowed people paying mortgages on their property to deduct the amount of their mortgages from their taxes.

The precedent of corporate as a citizen with full rights of Citizenship came out of this case. Not from any anything written in favor or against by any of the justices. The precedent came from an remark made by Chief Justice Waite that was taken down by a clerk and appeared in the head notes for the case.

'The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids any state to deny any person with in it's jurisdiction the
equal protection of the laws, applies to these corporations. We are of the opinion it does not.' The Chief Justice at that time was former Railroad attorney.

Third Step.."Corporations as Persons and as Citizens gain wider advantages.

3A 1889 the court overtly granted due process Amendment to corporations;

3B 1893 it was Fifth amendment protections of double jeopardy;

3C 1906 Fourth Amendment protections from unreasonable search and seizure.

Fourth Step - Corporations Gain the Right to interfere in balloting.

3D 1978 the right to make contributions to ballot initiative campaigns."

Fifth Step - Money As Free Speech

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice

Though a corporation could not go to the polls and vote, as a 'person' it has the right of free speech since it's shareholders have the right of free speech.

(https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm

Sixth Step "Money Is Free Speech applies to Corporations."

Since eople have a right to as much speech as they want and since money is speech, corporations including LLC's and non profits have the right to spend as much money as they want on elections with only one limit. The 5 to 4 vote by a conservative court."

Seventh Step - The left came out against that decision as it supported corporate support to anyone from anyone. is corporate power of purchasing votes. Since the left enjoys a large group of support from billionaires an millionaires one has to wonder why. The answer is they are using the anti-corporate method to gain the direct method currently denied by the court.

"Any individual should be able, under free speech, to contribute to any campaign in any part of the nation." Or as I put it some months ago. "I have the right without explanation to take away your rights without exception."

http://endcitizensunited.org/about-us/ as an organization is now reversing the steps again to get rid of the need for 'bagmen" and allow direct access to candiates and issues in any part of the nation.

That is the current goal and last step.

Which means anyone especially the big money billionaire can interfere in your local precinct, district, town, county or State and buy all the candidates, officials, and heavily influence balloting anywhere they want they need no geo-political ties to interfere in your elections.

How much can you afford to contribute in the purchase of free speech if George Soros decides to target your local election?

Which should give you a clue as to who is behind all this. Like Same Sex it's George, http://moveon.org, ACLU and the secular progressives who saw a good deal and acted on it. But not to your benefit.

I got all of the above direct from Yoda's writings....George Lakoff. They are very open about it and believe you and I can do nothing to stop them.

Votes For Sale will be followed by Government for Sale - A Progressive Production coming soon to a precinct near your doorstep.

PS there is something that can be done ....Couch Potatoes need not apply.

The same method used to get Same Sex passed. Get it into the courts,Use a friendly bought and paid for judge. Bingo!

The antidote is any number of citizens rights violated especially due process based on no valid geo-political connection. Those who MAY not vote MAY not contribute which if applied does not violate any free speech as all ballots are level by level inclusive of every registered voters interests. All the way from top to bottom

It also addresses the issue of buying politicians


































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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 5 months ago
    Corporations are an improvement over Shariah Law; and they have ancient roots of their own in Roman Law. Before corporations as we understand them today were invented, unrelated people could only come together for business as partnerships. By law, if one partner died, the partnership was dissolved. No one can speak for a dead person. Limiting businesses to partnerships would make modern enterprise impossible.

    The family business is a different matter. Under traditional law, left over from agrarian times, the family business is a kind of farm, owned by the pater familias, and ownership passed by inheritance. In order to avoid the limitations of partnership, every co-owner would have to be adopted into the family. In that case, the head of the family decides your shares and your profits. That is what privilege is, literally, private law. The pater familias can do whatever on the farm. In Roman times, he could sell family members into slavery.

    However, Roman law also recognized the collective entity: the herd. The herd exists independent of any one animal. If you buy or sell the herd, some die and others are born along the way. It is the same herd. The Romans granted charters to groups of individuals: burial societies and fire fighters were among the first. Some people claim that the Benedictine Order, chartered in 579, is the oldest corporation. Wikipedia has other ideas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of... but note that many of them are family businesses. (In maritime law, the ship herself is charged with piracy regardless of the individuals in her crew.)

    The modern corporation was the steam engine of commerce. It allowed the creation and management of capital on the scale demanded by the industrial revolution, and wholly beyond the needs of simpler, land-based societies. Shariah Law demands partnerships. Also, it forbids the payment of interest. Anyone who lends money becomes a partner and shares in the profits. It worked well enough for simpler times and places. However, even Shariah recognize something called a waqf. A waqf is like a foundation. It was created first over wells: everyone needs it; no one can own it; it must be managed for the common good. Sometime later - I know only about Cairo 1600 - the waqf was used to create family foundations that let merchants aggregate their wealth without it being redivided by inheritances.

    In the West, universities were founded and chartered as corporations to allow them to survive their founders. They also could make their own laws for their own communities: Bologna, Oxford, Cambridge, Padua, Heidelberg, ... When Cambridge found its original charter unhelpful, they went to Parliament for one -- and got a seat in Parliament as a result. Sir Isaac Newton served a term; but lost the next election.

    As for the modern corporation, you could not own most of your comforts without them. To condemn the entirety because of the actions of a few individuals is collectivism.

    In the future, the corporation may be the legal structure by which a software earns its legal rights. We already have electronic filing. There is no way to know who the original actor is. She might be a program.
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    • Posted by ewv 10 years, 5 months ago
      Sharia law is of course worse than corporations and a lot more, but corporations have not developed as an alternative to muslim primitives. They are irrelevant. Why focus on a comparison with that?
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 5 months ago
        Shariah law is just a traditional form of law. You can find its tenets all across the globe, from the prohibition on compound interest to the status of women. Arab/Muslim merchants worked around it, but could not get passed it, because they never had the corporation. However, in the modern world, there is some change. I searched for corporations in Jordan (nominally westernized) and Iran (clearly not) and in each I found one limited liability company. I do not know the specifics.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
      And we already have the unverified Oregon Ballot -another reason to call it New Amsterdam.

      They are now mailing out ballots to old unverified addresses with no way to tell who signed or who influenced votes cast.

      Add winner take all and top two primary vote getters for the general ballot there is literally no way of knowing the final outcome and it's
      wide open to fraud. Software makes it worse. One example if no one from other than the two leftist parties allowed on the ballot there are no poll watchers from the others.

      That's up to the states but with a decent federal Congress they could refuse to seat any delegates from Oregon until they cleaned up their act.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 5 months ago
        I do not know anything about the problem in Oregon. I do understand, generically, the problem with absentee ballots. That being as it may, you have tied together two unrelated topics: corporations and voter fraud.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
          Now they are related. In States using fraudulent methods they are easier to control by the direct access method (not yet legal) or the Corporate PAC method (legal) which means control of voting officials. Control to small f fascism means by any means or methods necessary.and available.
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          • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 5 months ago
            The larger solution set is the limitation on government. Corporations need to lobby legislatures and support candidates for the same reasons that any individual does: to protect their rights. That they also have the power to violate the rights of others or avoid the consequences or their actions -"too big to fail" - is simply the result of the government powers in the first place.

            In The Invention of Enterprise (reviewed here: http://libertarianpapers.org/wp-conte... the editors and authors make the point that in every society, capable people make use of whatever tools the norms encourage and allow. In ancient Rome, business was denigrated, so successful businessmen turned the operation over to their freedman and slaves, and retired to the country to live on farms. Meanwhile, Anthony, Caesar, Sulla, and all the rest plundered foreigners and brought the material goods back for the greater glory of Rome.

            Corporations are persons under law. In fact, they can be protected from their own boards of directors, if a suit of exploitation is brought.
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  • Posted by ewv 10 years, 5 months ago
    Buying votes is illegal, as is paying off public officials. Spending money to speak out on public policy is not buying votes.

    Corporations are not evil by nature. They are voluntary associations of people organized for a specific purpose. There are tens or hundreds of thousands of corporations of many kinds, many good, others not. Whether or not you like what some of them do is not a reason to denounce corporations in principle. Attempts to muzzle "corporations" are attempts to muzzle people and are a flagrant violation of the First Amendment.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 5 months ago
    There will always be those who would corrupt a good thing. No matter how noble or well thought-out, the scammers will find a way. Take as an example a discount department store called E.J. Korvette. When they opened their doors, as a small chain, they had prices sensationally low. As a result, their volume was fantastic. Suppliers fell all over themselves selling to them in huge quantities. Everyone wondered how they could do it. The fact of the matter was - they couldn't. After about two years, Korvette declared bankruptcy. Hardly any of their suppliers were paid in full. Just enough to keep them hooked. The result? Consumers couldn't believe their good fortune as they fought the mobs at Christmastime to buy products below cost, and the owners strolled away with estimated millions since it was the corporation and not them that was liable. Why didn't the suppliers sue the individuals? After all, some of them were among the world's largest manufacturers. They would have if they could have found them. Or, maybe not. Once they totaled up the cost of locating the miscreants, suing them with an excellent chance of losing even though the scam was obvious, most of them apparently decided it wasn't worth it. It was a case of greed overcoming common sense and an example of using a corporation as a (illegal?)weapon.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
      and they still get to buy protection from Congress and the State and Local Governments. When's GMC going to deliver my car and yours.. The one's we paid for under corporate Obamacare.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 5 months ago
        Don 't hold your breath -- you'll bust a gut.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
          Corpse'a'care for dead Corporations How to breathe still life into no life? I won't even rent a car at Enterprise no matter how good the special rate if it's GMC. And I tell them that straight up front. I made Lufthansa find me another airplane when they tried to shove me on a United Flight I told them in German if I wanted to be treated like Schiess I would have bought a United or Alitalia ticket to begin with. The Gernans (Frankfort) thought that hilarious and rescheduled with an upgrade and a meal pass for the wait. When the waitress took my order I said bring me something a local would order. It was magnificent! So was the plane ride. And no Gestapo until I got to the US.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 10 years, 5 months ago
    The simplest way to fix the problem of corporate/special interest buying of elections is to limit contributions and participation in the political process to registered voters. No collective body can vote, so corporations, unions, PACs, NGOs wouldn't be able to buy influence. Lobbying could only be done in the form of citizen petition, with all signatories registered voters, and no form of value exchange allowed. I would raise the allowed amount of political contributions for individuals, with full transparency of the list of contributors.

    None of the above requires a constitutional amendment, takes nothing from the legal protections for corporations, and brings the entire political process out in the open.
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    • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 5 months ago
      No, Dr. You're falling into the government can do it trap. It's best to eliminate regulations, not create more. If what you propose is put in place I guarantee that many more will be put in place which in a circular way, will circumvent. what you propose. If the market is totally unregulated, everyone in the competition arena will find ways around their probelems or get out. Example: I was in the camera business. Competition was selling products at prices I couldn't afford to sell them at. I knew they were getting special deals that weren't offered to me. So, instead I offered extended warranties, traing courses, customer exhibitions, which fostered a loyal clientele. Every time the government stepped in to help, eventually they screwed up the entire industry. Eventually this led me and others to form an association with greater buying power and lawyers to fight unfair practices. Funny thing about suing privately. Everything was settled out of court because the big, well advertised companies didn't want to let the public know what rats they were in reality.
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    • Posted by JuliBMe 10 years, 5 months ago
      I may be out of my depth and I've only skimmed some of the above so far. However, my mind tends to simplify quickly and break an issue down to its root. So, wouldn't the best way to eliminate or "fix" all of this be to repeal the 16th amendment and institute "loser pays" laws in each state?

      I promise I will come back and read all of the above after I've had my coffee! LOL. I love to learn and this issue and the history you are all discussing interests me.
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      • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
        Much as I would like to see that I have to think about it in this context. I would like to see a reversal of the extent to which corporations are granted rights and a ruling on geo-poliitical aspects of vote buying especially where their is no equal or valid interest or connection and their is an usurption of other rights plural as a consequence. What Shipley and friends want is the unrestricted right to influence outcomes using money with no geographical restrictions from whence it came or two where it goes. In fact they already have that right

        The other reason for supporting money as free speech is greed. How much would the media lose every two years and all the rest of the bottom dwelling crumb feeders.

        The billionaires would still get to influence the two federal offices. But only the state delegates to the congress and the State offices within their own state. on down the line.

        Another powerful special interest group where greed and power would be for vote buying is Congress itself. They do it through such mechanisms as Davis-Bacon funneling tax dollars or borrowed deficit dollars to the unions whose members are required to donate to PACs - if they want to work.

        Try leafing through the Constitution and Amendments and finding how many ways this situation violates your rights as a citizen.
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        • Posted by JuliBMe 10 years, 5 months ago
          Oh, I understand how our rights and livelihoods are violated from here to Sunday with each "precedent" that is adopted using the Constitution and Amendments. I think the founders, while genius, had no earthly way to see the extent of the riches (and subsequent corruption) their original thoughts and efforts would generate.

          I am not of the school that says "corporations are evil". I think some of the people running them are evil and most are not. However, I cannot comment on the corporate laws discussed above as I have little knowledge.

          The bare truth of it, though, is that money is speech. I go to my grocery store to buy something, I am informing others of my opinion. You cannot get around it.

          From this end of time, we must find common-sense ways to correct what the founders did not see and what other, lesser men put in place. Most of this is for smarter people than I. However, the 16th amendment must go. Term limits for federal legislators is another way to try to eliminate the cronyism. The president is term-limited, why not all the rest of them? Loser pays laws will help to rein in the out of control marriage of the legal profession with politicians.

          None of these things will fix it all. However, if the government were much less powerful, the corporations would have to turn their efforts to what really makes or breaks them, competition. Don't you think that would fix a lot of the problems we are seeing today?
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          • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
            Ahh you see the difference is when you go to the store it's your decision unless you are influenced by all that advertising and buy two get one free crap.

            If you do then you are being manipulated. However when someone walks up and says I'll give you a dollar for buying Pepsi versus Coca Cola when your choice is RC.that's still ok but if they say we're running a vote to make Pepsi illegal in town and and fines every store that violates the new law AND for everyone that votes yes we'll give them a case of 'Coca Cola legitimate that's trade interference or if the pepsi plant is just across the state line interfereing with interstate trade. So how is that different with interfering

            However if RC says we only produce in Minnesota and want to buy your vote to make it illegal not to sell RC in the other states ..How is that acceptable...and then you find out a subparaqraph makes it legal for the Minnesota RC workers to interfere with your town's vote on the matter or for that matter Bubble Up or Big Orange and Moon Pies.? None of them can vote in your Wyoming county can they?

            Or is that the next step after direct contributions and access? After all if the corporation can then the citizens can.

            How about Tecate from Mexico? Or Steinlager from New Zealand.

            I gave the next step - doesn't mean it's the last step.

            How about vote in every precinct, town, country or State where there product does business? People are the same as corporations no? And vice versa.

            Same with candidates and measures.
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            • Posted by JuliBMe 10 years, 5 months ago
              Michael, I always stay with the big picture. It's just how my crazy mind works. Your examples may all happen in one form or another. Corrupt people will always do what corrupt people do. However, if you take away the governments power to be a party to it, the impact will be much less. There is no escape from the federal government, so we must start there to down-size the harm done by unlimited federal power. Individual states can then do what they do based on their constituent's desires. The pendulum always swings with people's opinion of what is the right thing to do. There is always an escape from one state to another state. So, let each "laboratory of democracy" experiment with their own versions of liberty and tyranny and restore the federal government to its LIMITED powers. The people will then decide which state is best to live in and each state will be successful or not based on how they are able to attract people to live and work there.
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              • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
                Excellent grasp. No bi-partisan cross partisan one party system of government dictating every gasp of air. We're not supposed to 'get along' We're supposed to have choices....Fifty States fifty different blends and no black robed bought and paid for dictators and no interference from outsiders. ..excellent!

                And every time some outsider tried to interfere I'd haul him and his toadies into court and fine them double what they had spent interfering. The second time triple. If the local newspaper or other media complained cancel the subscription. They are after all not journalists but reporters and why would I trust them? Local pressure works when it comes to loss of advertising revenue. Oh your store has adds in the Daily Blather? Sorry I'll shop elsewhere.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 5 months ago
      That is an interesting proposal. It would require, also, that any organization that lobbies or contributes to campaigns also register all of its members to show that they are individually citizens. That might be perceived as a limit on freedom of association. Still, it is interesting. Thanks.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
      It's called geo-political limitations.If you may not vote you cannot contribute nor interfere in any geo-political area where you are not registered to vote. It protects the rights violated by the Money is Free Speech rule a case where that 5-4 ruling based on the commerce section denied five or six rights. Court left it's brains behind the door in a jar on that one. I use the voters pamphlet and the ballot as the yardstick. Any one can look at their copy and the limits are clearly set out. What you see from local to Federal and the rest is none of your business. Those who elect not to participate still have free speech simply by attending various meetings or engaging in conversation or letters to the editor or the blogs etc.

      I should point out I didn't do all the leg work on this. I found it clearly spelled out in Yoda Lakoffs manual of how to Frame and Reframe a debate. Secular Progessives are the driving force behind gettng unlimited direct access using money to do so. the list twist in this rather serpent-ine path from Dartmouth and King George to King George Soros.
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      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 5 months ago
        What you refer as "buying votes" is having a large platform to spread your speech. It's still speech, nothing makes the people who listen to it have to vote for you because you spent a lot of money. Spending an unlimited amount of money does not guarantee you win the election.

        Of course most of the population is sadly uneducated, uninterested and likely to chase the latest 30 second ad, but you aren't going to solve that by limiting the rights of people to contribute to candidates who further their interests and philosophy.

        And since a corporation has interests in influencing the regulation of it's activity and its taxation it has the right, derived from the rights of its owners, to advocate in its own best interest. It's called speech.

        Now, if you are suggesting that bribery is going on, that's a crime no matter who does it.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
          That wasn't a suggestion is a statement of legalized fact.

          Question? How many votes does a corporation have?

          Question? How much can you as an individual afford to buy?

          Doesn't it make you feel rather small, weak, insignificant, marginalized and relegated to being one of the insignificant parts of a 'real' entity?

          It should. But then that's the role you chose. Reframing didn't work this time.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 10 years, 5 months ago
    One interesting thing of note: money seems to be failing as a means of buying voter support in the Presidential contest - at least on the Republican side. Jeb Bush's crowd has spent over $40M, with little to show for it, while Donald Trump's campaign has spent just over $200K, and he has a significant lead over all the other candidates. Trump's skill at manipulating the media to provide him a public platform is without peer. The question has to be whether or not this will change the traditional approach to campaigning. Will anyone else be able to match Trump's talent for getting "free" publicity?
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    • Posted by JuliBMe 10 years, 5 months ago
      My inclination is to think that Trump's name recognition and his outspokenness has engendered all his free publicity. It will not happen, in future, in any other cycle unless you have that combination come up again.
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      • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
        True the media especially are smelling money in the future and those humanoids would sell their sisters and mothers and eat their young for a one point increase in sweeps week. If Trump drops out the first question is who are you going to support?
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        • Posted by JuliBMe 10 years, 5 months ago
          I don't see Trump dropping out. He may, in the end, be run out of town on a rail by something they finally are able to use to damage public opinion of him. He's kind of immature in what he says and how he phrases things at times. Not that I think it reflects who he is because if it did, those "humanoids" would have already dug some skeleton out of the closet. Who will I support if Trump does fall? The one person who memorized the Constitution as a child or teenager, has an audiographic memory, and has argued before the "men in black" and won. Ted Cruz. He is my number one choice and, I believe, would do his best to restore our Constitutional Republic. You?
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          • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
            Destruction of the one party system and restoration of the Constitution as the center of political discourse in the country. The center is NOT the center of the left except between their right wing and left wing both are left.

            Cruz came out with Paul Rand and publicly backed Pelosi's VAT Tax which is a tax on a series of embedded taxes. and subtracts not adds value. Routing it through corporations only makes it worse. They are both at this point self confessed Rino supporters and like all the rest of the 'approved list' dirty. His mistake.Not my problem.

            I will never compromise my principles nor sell my self respect to support any leftist for any reason. The proper move would be breaking with the Republican party who has so far showed nothing substantial except talk. Rino or enabling supporter they are at best the right wing of the left and too far to the left of the Constitution for me to spend more than a moment rejecting them.

            My one exception is somebody who is eminently acceptable to the left wing of the left such as Carly Fiorino IF They choose an acceptable VP who miight be able to gain THE office in four to eight years.
            That's a very very very long shot.

            As I last resort as it would be both legal and non violent I would fully support the the US Military if they chose to uphold their oath of office in the form of a counter revolution.After all it is the oath of office I myself took for many years.

            But voting for self proclaimed supporters of the left is the same as voting for self proclaimed leftists. Not going to happen. I have not and I will not choose socialist evil in any degree. They read their part in the script. That's their shame not mine.

            In the meantime with none of the above likely I will continue to work to weaken the numbers of those registering and or voting until such time as it's apparent to all they have no representation and are effectively disenfranchised. Which under the present voting system is a a factual truth. Destruction of credibility by lowering the percentage of restraints and voters meaning None of the Above might cause one of the other options to occasion itself.

            After that there are only two choices. Martial Law and reinstatement of the Constitution or a leftist dictatorship with non- removed from violence. I can't support that. But if that's what the rest of you want go for it. Cover up your mirrors first.

            Thus ends my daily rant....back to being the good humor man.
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            • Posted by JuliBMe 10 years, 5 months ago
              Okay, we're in the weeds again for me. I'm looking at tedcruz.org and his tax plan. Can you tell me how a "simple Business Flat Tax at a single 16 percent rate" is a VAT tax? I know National Review calls it a value added tax, but how?

              For myself, I think any tax on income is immoral and not the way to go to reform our tax system. I've looked at the FairTax quite a bit and I really like that choice. Ted Cruz has mentioned the FairTax, too. But the flat tax is what he is pushing on his website. Have you looked at the FairTax?

              I completely agree regarding any form of "leftism" whatever name they are choosing to call it this week.
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              • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
                Simple it adds a tax to all corporations and businesses just as VAT does. which means an additional tax on top of all the embedded taxes and fees a etc. which the business then collects for the government at each corporate step in the production chain listing AND adds the cost of collection and transfer to the Cost of Government Column where all government taxes fit into overhead and passes those costs 16% or whatever straight to the consumer. The mine sells minerals to the refinery adds 16% to the price. The refinery to a manufacturer same thing. However many step it still ends up coming out of the pocket of the end user - the consumer. plus the extra costs. involved. What you have is an increased consumer price OR decrease in quality or service or employee benefits or employees paid for with after tax devalued dollars.

                The flat tax is another form of income tax the firs tone was 7% and went to 77% in 11 years. By any name it's purpose is control. That's a tax for fascists.

                The simple flat tax infers it is a a form of income tax and as explained businesses pay no taxes they just up the price to cover the overhead costs as with any other form of overhead.

                They are trying to make it sound like a Fair Tax. I fail to see anything fair about it....But a Pelosi Tax by any name is unacceptable except to Pelosi.

                I've looked at Fair Tax since it was first introduced. I really don't know if it would still work given the 'draconian' increase in government expenses primarily interest on the national debt. The figure would have to be redone

                However the fair tax or consumptin tax puts control in the hands of the end user making the purchase. Which item to buy, when to buy and how much to spend. which in turn drives the amount of tax collected I's only usable if the various form of business and individual income taxes meaning pass the cost to the consumer are removed and banned..
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                • Posted by JuliBMe 10 years, 5 months ago
                  Okay, I get it. I can see how anyone being for that would make you think twice before voting for them. Yes, I know that businesses do not pay taxes, people do. The taxes must be passed along or the business does not stay in business. That's why the FairTax has always attracted me. It places the tax into everyone's face, removes it from everywhere else (along with eliminating the 16th amendment and the IRS) and makes them see what it is they are paying. I believe it would go a long way to making more people pay attention to what is going on in our criminal state and federal houses. As far as the amount collected goes, I believe it was calculated at 23% to be "revenue neutral". But, who knows after the Obama regime theft. I think once it kicks in, and more freedom ensues, the percentage would actually be too much. But, that would take some time to find out and to correct. It would be hoped that with more attention being paid to those criminals, we would also start seeing actual cuts in government spending taking place.

                  I'm disappointed that Ted Cruz's tax plan is that onerous. I was of the opinion, previously, that he was pretty close to conservative perfect! (Maybe he's doing what all the RINO's do and placing that in there to attract the big-government lovers votes. Then when in office, he'll say "gotcha!" like they do to conservatives all the time. LOL! I know, probably stupid wishful thinking.) I'll give him a harder look.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 5 months ago
      Interesting I would have expected more. His private jet expenses for example. Does he fly commercial? Doesn't say much for the media. Not to doubt but what source is the 200K and does it count what others have provided? If so that's phenomenal. As to the last I doubt it. People like outrageous over mendacity. The Democrats claim their seven million in the hole but then say Hillary has a multi gazillion dollar campaign fund. Anyone believes the extreme left must be counting eqch of their left fingers by tens.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 10 years, 5 months ago
    Without morality and profound honesty...all this is very disturbing.
    The meme Trump is stuck on is "it's ok to do whatever you have to, to succeed"...
    Just like in nature, there should always be a line not to be crossed.
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