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    Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 2 months ago
    So...according to my Grandma Rose, "What else is new?" She came from that area in Poland that bordered Russia. Sha was used to privation. When she came to the USA she loved it. Her man could make a living. She saved up and bought a 2 family flat and rented out not only the downstairs flat but one of the bedrooms in her upstairs flat. She was a great money manager and she saved as much as possible. Her only indulgence was a rubber plant that she would admonish me to not even come close to.If you had tried to explain the Omnibus Bill to her, I'm sure she would never believe you. She became a citizen with an almost incomprehensible accent
    and would never believe that the inheritors of the founders could possibly be that stupid. She is long gone now, but I'd be wiling to bet that she would have the budget straightened out and USA out of debt by the end of the new president's term. And so would many other new citizens appalled at the way America dissipates its wealth.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
      Then it is definitely a loss to this nation that there aren't millions more like her.

      She appears, however, to have some progeny that show promise ;)
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      • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 2 months ago
        There are millions.. However, they are merely the people of "flyover country" Heck, I know several accountants who if given the power to set up the budget, could have America not only out of debt but on the plus side. The problem is that to do that it is going to hurt. A lot. All science projects except for military are bye-bye. All entitlements so long. All subsidies, ta-ta. All pork projects bye-bye. Re do the Affordable I-don't-care act. You'll hear caterwauling from here to eternity Including me. Some stuff will be left alone and I'm sure you could figure that out for yourself. No one has the courage to propose such drastic action because it's a guarantee that they won't get re-elected.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
      That made me think back to my Grandfather whose Father and Mother came from Norway and Sweden respectively migrated from Ellis Island to what became Big Stone County. on Big Stone Lake.Western Minnesota on the South Dakota Border started a trading post, two farms, a store, a small hotel, a town a big hotel, the first telephone service in the town, a ferry on the long thin border lake and several other businesses. The family moved mostly westward and some eventualloy as far west as Australia.My grandfather moved to Ashton Idaho and guided hunters in the Yellowstone from his ranch/mine operation before it was a park. Later left he area after a shoot out and ended up in Iowa. Most of the family had more sense as the whole area on the exact edge of the greeat plains or Blue Stem country had brilliantly beautiful spring flower seasons and fall leaf color season that divided sultry hot muggy bug infested summers and bitter cold winters.

      Our branch didn't do much better moving to SW Oregon whee I grew iup or as it's known Appalachia West and now is part of New Amsterdam famous for three exports. Lumber, High School Seniors, and pot. And not much else.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 2 months ago
    These days the best work in the Capitol building is performed in its rest rooms.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
      LOL.

      Dave Barry once made a similar joke in his book "Dave Barry Slept Here" when he talks about the new mandates on conserving water in flush toilets. He appropriately labels them "acts of Congress"!
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 2 months ago
        I have just returned from my weekly noon time drive to pick up my Friday catfish from a convenience food store deli.
        On the way I listened to Rush.
        Thus I learned that, after the bill was passed, Obama called Paul Ryan and said, "Thanks for making government work."
        Not mentioned was how Ryan must have raced to the rest room to wash off being so pathetically slimed.
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  • Posted by term2 10 years, 2 months ago
    Paul Ryan just gave into Obama. What an ass. I am so disgusted by what our government takes my money for that I am close to shrugging. At this point, I think the government actually wants to destroy the currency by printing more of it. They figure the national debt will never be paid back, so it might as well be paid off by wrecking the currency value (along with my savings). If all the politicians from both parties that vote for these things were on a ship and it happened to sink, I would rejoice. Unfortunately, they are being elected by people who no longer think that freedom is a good thing, so they would be promptly be replaced by another similar group.
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  • Posted by Ben_C 10 years, 2 months ago
    In eleven years we will be toast. In eleven years all federal income will be spent on the debt interest payments and mandated entitlements. Do the math. Nothing will be left for defense or other legitimate federal functions. In eleven years (or sooner) the federal government will collapse under its own weight. Perhaps then moral capitalists will show they way. Wasn't there a book written about this? Atlas Shrugged - the prophecy!
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
      Ahh but you forget the magic twanger in the cycle of economic repression formula. It's called Repudiation which is a rudely sounding way of saying We ain't going to pay the bill. The method is however not open direct refusal it's devaluing the worth of the investment so people from China etc. get back maybe 60% or a bit less of their buying power and current and coming up soon retirees the same. treatment. Inflation, devaluation, repudiation the first half is history and they are hiding behind the new SW Texas Oil field production but fuel is still double 1999-2000. Ethanol was used to boost food prices not only here but world wide and the Housing bubble to break the economy. None of that was the result of unknown factors. So here we go again to pay the interest on the New debt...inflation, devaluation, repudiation. The magic key that gets them past John maynard keynes warning - "this will only work if there is money to pay the interest." Keynes didn't bankon the interest rates dropping to nothing and the value of the money to minus nothing.That counters the effect of running the presses and flooding the economy with new but worth .... less than before...money...at least enough to get them re-elected.

      There was a book written about it. In one part it said something about driving the money changers out of the temple. It said nothing about re-electing criminals.
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  • Posted by kkeen842 10 years, 2 months ago
    It's that time of year again – when the Republican leadership in Congress betrays everything they claim to stand for and helps the Democrats pass another 2,000-page, trillion-dollar omnibus spending bill.

    Once again, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) is going to completely surrender the power of the purse and give the Democrats everything they want and more.

    Later today, the Senate will begin voting on this omnibus bill and Senator McConnell, like Senator Harry Reid (D-NV) before him, will block every conservative effort to slow this bill down or amend it.

    The bill was negotiated behind closed doors and now it will be rammed through the Senate with minimum debate.

    This is why so many Americans dislike Washington.

    Senator Mike Lee (R-UT) said the process is "an affront to the Constitution – the very idea of constitutionalism – and an insult to the American people."

    The omnibus bill itself not only busts the budget caps and increases deficit spending, it does nothing to defund Obamacare, Planned Parenthood, executive amnesty, or the president's reckless nuclear deal with Iran.

    Instead, it fully funds the resettling of refugees from nations with large areas controlled by terrorists, it quadruples the number of visas the president wants for foreign workers, it allows the president to fund the Green Climate Fund, and it gives Obamacare cover by delaying the worst aspects of the law.

    This is happening in part because Senator McConnell thought it was wise to unilaterally surrender to President Obama, vowing to never do anything that might lead to a government shutdown. As a result, Democrats can now demand whatever they want in every budget debate and they will get it.

    But it's also happening because Senator McConnell believes this is good for America. He calls this "governing" and brags about how he has cut deals with the Democrats to get the Senate "working again."
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
      We already knew McConnell was in the bag for Obama. The question was whether or not Ryan would capitulate as well and follow Boehner down the path of spinelessness, and it appears he has.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
        there was never any question. ryan was backed by the GOP insiders. He was, by definition, controllled and would do as all GOP "leaders" have done for 30 years: anything he was told to do in exchange for the power of "leading" the GOP. The supposed "leaders" are NOT leaders; they are looter puppets.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
    Any patriots in the Dark Center?
    If so, they will just vote no.
    Anyone who votes in favor of this should be arrested, tried for economic treason, unconstitutional violation of their oath, and executed on the capitol steps.
    Sorry, no funding to clean up the mess.
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  • Posted by ohiocrossroads 10 years, 2 months ago
    I have figured out why Speaker Ryan has grown a beard.

    It's to hide his naked shame.

    Why the aitch is there even a Republican party if they're not going to act to implement the policies they run on?

    I heard the interview with Chucky Schumer on Rush Limbaugh, and he sounded as though he couldn't believe the deal the Dimocrats got. They got more than they expected.
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  • Posted by wiggys 10 years, 2 months ago
    It seems to me that many of you on this site have not learned enough from Ayn Rand or are not taking it to heart. Those who work with in the government system i.e. are paid with tax dollars have ABSOLUTELY no concern as to how much money is spent or where. They only know they want more and more so they can spend more and more. You would think that they would want to rein in 0 but as you can now see they have no intention of doing so. What I heard which is the most annoying is the millions set aside to be used for the resettlement of the syrians. Did they ever give thought to the future once here if they will ever work towards self support, or where they will live in the first place the answer is an unequivocal NO. Do you think that even one of them cares about the future people that are being born into our world, your children and grand children having to pay more and more taxes so the loan can be paid, not paid off ever, to the lenders NO! Just view all of what they are doing with respect to reality such as A=A and realize that what these government employed people are interested in is only how they can benefit. Is there a difference between what they do and what the communists did from lenin on until this day, is putin different, NO just more sophisticated. welcome to the new america!
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
      Some would claim that it is only an expression of their own self-interest, the problem is that it is an extremely short-sighted and delusional form of self-interest. Yes, they are going to seek their own enlargement. The problem is that they misidentify the source of their enlargement: instead of the welfare of the people leading to the need for more services, they view their own enlargement as leading to the need for more services. What they fail to understand is that they are quite literally putting the cart before the horse. To make things worse, they are taking the money that would be used to feed the horse and using it to build a bigger cart!
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      • Posted by wiggys 10 years, 2 months ago
        The mistake you are making is by assuming these people have thinking capacity. They function like a pack of wild dogs vying for their share of the kill. They are savages, and trying to philosophize about them the situation is a waste of time.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
          Oh, I still hold that they think. It is what they think about that differs between you and I. They want power over others. We want liberty. They can only get power by infringing on our liberties. And so they go to diabolical lengths to persuade us to give up our power. Some buy the arguments. Some do not.
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  • Posted by $ prof611 10 years, 2 months ago
    I have read that this bill will give the government new, unheard of authority over the Internet. Is that true? If so, how can this be stopped TODAY ( since that's when this bill is going to be passed )?
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
      The rule is don't ask just do it and if caught apologize and then figure out how to do it again making it look like a different situation that wasn't covered. Often times in office politics if you can provide the boss with plausible cover claiming some form of offensive harassment form example the whole thing will go under the rug. If your one of the toadies. Price you pay...unless you like your vengeance served cold.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
      That already happened when the FCC decided to take over the DNS servers rather than allow them to remain in private hands. And a bill was passed to end the NSA's wiretapping, but we'll probably never know if it really stopped.

      What continues to astound me is that when evaluating foreigners for entry visas, the State Department had a policy upheld by Obama and Jeh Johnson prohibiting the examination of Facebook pages of potential immigrants. This was highlighted in the recent San Bernardino shootings when it was discovered that the wife - the real jihadi - had been posting her plans to wage holy war for several years prior to her falsified entry into the US. And at the same time, the US government is busy gathering US Citizen's private information via Facebook, Twitter, etc. for political targeting.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Of course you should judge them individually;^) The point that I keep making is that no one who is ethical will be chosen by either the GOP or the Dems. It will not happen, so your only ethical choices are outside the statist party. All members of the GOP are not evil, but those within the GOP who choose the candidate are proven evil by their actions, lies, and betrayals.
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  • Posted by mshupe 10 years, 2 months ago
    Maybe this explains why Trump is doing so well in the national polls. He's tapped in to the anger of Republican voters who gave them a landslide in the last two off year elections only to get steamrolled by Obama and his willing accomplices in the Republican party who are afraid of the big bad press. Trump isn't.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
      Ding! Ding! Ding!

      Senators Cruz and (recently) Sessions have pointed this out several times. Republican voters are tired of getting left holding the bag.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
        True but Cruz is part of the problem.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
          You're going to have to back that one up. The Republican Establishment doesn't and has never liked Cruz. The recent reports are that the Republican Establishment has actually opened up a criminal investigation of Cruz to try to force him to drop out of the race. If he's part of the problem, why would they do that?
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
            I stated that because Cruz IS a Republican and has distinct RIno leanings. I'd have review those reports before I would credit them. Do have any links? So far I just see an enabler at best a Rino at worst and and a straight up leftist by reason of membership and by deed such as supporting the Pelosi VAT initiative which is one of Hillary's tax enhancements. That goes double for Rand Paul who did the same thing along with Cruz.
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
              http://www.redstate.com/2015/12/16/re...

              You appear to have a very jaundiced view of Republicans in general - especially if you lump Rand Paul (a libertarian) in there as well. You ignore all the times they have bucked their own party to vote, such as on TPP/TPA and many others. I'd recommend a broader view and especially to take a look at the legislation Cruz offers and puts before the Senate. That's where you'll find the measure of the man - not whether or not he goes along with someone else's bill.

              No one is going to claim that any politician currently in office is an Objectivist! But of all the Senators in Congress, I can only name two (Cruz and Mike Lee) who constantly cite the Constitution in their arguments before Congress against or for specific bills. I only wish more of the real RINO's like McCain and McConnell did the same.
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
                I learned not to trust leftists until they deliver the goods. Republicans are the right wing of the left by action so why would I think otherwise. If Not Rinos then enablers and supporters. I've learned to use their 'talk' to measure against their 'walk' and so far have seen no reason to have any faith in them especially those who doth protest mightily.

                Besides these days politician is just another word for untrustworthy and spin is another word for deceit.

                Actually I'm not jaundiced at all I'm very blunt and have long ago discarded the Left's unworkable system or definition of left and right. Allthey did was move the center post to the center of the left and that makes the Republicans the right wing OF the left.

                Works for me. Immediate explanation of why Reublicans cave. The other system fails credulity. You may design your own system or explanation or just follow the crowd.
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
                  There is nothing jaundiced and it is not an appearance of. It's straight up contempt for a useful corpse. You want zombies...I give you the GOP.

                  Useful tricks though. Most people look in the mirror and see reversed reflection. Socialists look in the mirror and see Republicans.
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                • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
                  "these days politician is just another word for untrustworthy"

                  Up to you. I'm willing to give anyone - even a politician - a chance to show me their mettle.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
        "Republican voters are tired of getting left holding the bag."
        What gives you that idea? It's not like there has been a big change in the GOP recently. They have been doing the same thing for 50 years: lying to get elected and voting like leftists after the election.
        "Republican voters" will show they are fed up when they stop being "Republican" voters, and not one second before. You vote for evil, you must take responsibility for it. Especially when you have done it over and over again against all rationality.
        "Republican" voters are insane. "Democrat" voters are insane.
        If insane people can't be trusted with firearms, why trust them with a more powerful weapon?
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
          And what is the alternative at this point? Show me a viable third party candidate.

          If you're willing to run for office, you can criticize the choices available and those who vote for them. Complaining for the sake of complaining, however, gets us nowhere.
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          • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
            For the MILLIONTH time: you vote for evil, YOU are responsible for the results.
            Since clearly it doesn't matter what I write, why ask me again?
            You are a smart person. Look at the results of the past 50 years. Figure it out for yourself.
            It is becoming pretty clear that talking to "Republican" voters is futile. They have doomed America and will never take responsibility for their actions. .
            "Viable" third party candidate? What makes one "viable"? As long as everyone who votes continues to vote without rational thought to the consequences, no rational candidate will be viable. You decide who is viable with your vote. You decide who is not viable by voting for evil instead of voting for principle.
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
              Viable means one appearing on the ballot where I live, first of all. Second, it means one with enough support behind them to get in the televised debates so people can see the differences in ideas. That is where politics will change, but not beforehand. I like the idea of a popular groundswell like the Tea Party, but they are leaderless, and without that, they have no concentration of power.

              Your real argument is that you are sick of not having an option you like to vote FOR. I can understand and sympathize with that. It is the secondary conclusion that by virtue of that decision, any vote will be a vote for "evil" where you lose me.

              "It is becoming pretty clear that talking to "Republican" voters is futile."

              And you think you'll have better success with Democrat voters? Or even the Independents?

              "[Republican voters] have doomed America and will never take responsibility for their actions."

              Why do you think Cruz and Trump (and earlier Ben Carson) are leading the polls? It's because they buck the establishment Republicans like Bush and Christie and the voters see that. I see the current trends and conclude the opposite of your assertion. The voters I openly criticize are the ones who vote for a Democrat.

              I would ask you to please correct me if I am misinterpreting you, but you seem to advocate that no one should vote at all because there aren't any perfect candidates. Inaction to me, however, is far from a solution to the problem, which is why I ask for solutions, not merely discontent for the status quo.
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              • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
                If Republican voters keep on voting for evil, no ethical candidate will ever be viable. The statist party controls the media and controls the eventual candidate selection; the voters don't affect that regardless of all the sideshow of polls, "debates", etc.
                The ONLY peaceful way for a liberty minded ethical candidate to be viable is if Republicans recognize the GOP as a lying fraud and abandon the GOP en mass. Democrat voters aren't worth the time to even discuss politics; the party gave up rational thought a century ago. I consider Independents as supporters of liberty until they prove otherwise, as the GOP and Dems have done.
                My approach is simple, "don't vote for evil." The Dems and GOP have proven they are evil. Use your brain rationally and pick someone outside the statist party. They won't be perfect, but if they have proven a committment to oppose the state with their life, fortune, and sacred honor then they might be good enough. Yes, they might not be perfect, but we have a better chance of defending liberty by rational thinking than by repeating mistakes of the past. The GOP and Dems are mistakes of the past, and they deserve extinction.
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
                  The trick is to identify those who are truly not Republicans and have demonsrtated that openly. Cruz and Paul Rand are two. Rand is also not a Libertarian anymore.

                  Strike them from the list and look hard at the others. As it is the Democrats have done all the picking and choosing for both parties or more properly for both candidates allowd for the party they do control.
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                • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 2 months ago
                  I understand the argument that if you pick the lesser of two evils you are still picking evil. But if you decide to choose squirrel instead then you increase the likelihood that the person you consider the greater of two evils will win.

                  If a third party is polling high enough that it isn't squirrel then by all means support it. I thought Perot had made it to that point in 1992 -- I accept my share of the responsibility for Bill Clinton.
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                  • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
                    WS, you are to be lauded, not blamed, for supporting Perot. You rejected evil in favor of the chance for a return to liberty. The time to be blamed is choosing either evil because that is the action that gives the power to evil.The system is corrupt; it won't change by choosing either evil.
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                    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
                      The false premise is 'greater of'.' Evil is evil. the degree is not in question only the presence. .
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                      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 2 months ago
                        My political philosophy is very similar to that of Treebeard in Lord of the Rings:
                        "I am not altogether on anyone’s side because nobody is altogether on my side"

                        To characterize someone who doesn't altogether agree with you as 'evil' creates a world of only evil. Even on this self-selecting site there are wide ranges of opinion. Are we all 'evil'?
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                        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
                          No I make a point of examining everything objectively. Then if the shoe fits they wear it. When I say evil I mean exactly that. Most who are contemplating that direction have not examined all the alternatives including at times personal moral values and self respect.

                          Socialism is evil etc. John A is a Socialist. John B there fore must be Socialist doesn't work for me.

                          Socialism is Evil John A. IS a Socialist. John B maybe uninformed, misguided, hasn't been offered any other alternatives or acceptable alternatives, or any other number of reasons including doesn't think of the lesser evil as evil. Which seems to fit Treebird. Some are in no way on my side... flush the toilet, turn your back and walk away while checking the rear view mirror.

                          On my side has room to host a great number of disagreements. But no room for violating core values unless I make that change. Objectively.
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                          • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 2 months ago
                            The flaw in your logic is the statement "John A" is a Socialist. Socialism is an evil doctrine and John A may believe many aspects of it, but no man is the embodiment of a doctrine unless they define it. Perhaps not even then. Is Ayn Rand the embodiment of Objectivism?

                            If John A is not a perfect example of a Socialist then there must be some aspects of him that are not Socialist. It is possible to consider John A and John B and determine which of them are to a lesser degree adherents of Socialism and vote on the basis of that, voting for their non Socialist portion and accepting that some degree of Socialism will be elected since A or B is going to be elected. Accepting that reality is part of the process.
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                            • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
                              Not trying to respond to your entire statement, WS, but I look at it partly this way. For the past 50 years one group (Dem)has claimed to want bigger government and when in power has created bigger government and less individual liberty. The other group (GOP) has claimed to defend individual liberty and promised smaller government repeatedly, and when in power has repeatedly delivered bigger government and (arguably) more severe reductions in liberty than even the Dem group has imposed. For me liberty and free markets are good and curtailment of either/both are evil. There is no significant conflict between the two groups. Both are evil. No, I do not think or say that every member or supporter of both groups are evil, but those who control the power within both groups do not allow anyone that will depart from this path to greater government power and less liberty to have any position of power. The thought that the voters choose the candidates for president is a fallacy. Voters will have no voice in the result until voters abandon both groups. The result is that many good people are wasting their efforts and continue to waste their efforts with a very consistent evil result. This will not change within either group because no one who is uncorrupted will ever rise to power in the two groups. Any effort within the two groups is either assisting evil, or a waste of resources and often results in corruption or utter frustration of once good people.
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                • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
                  "If Republican voters keep on voting for evil, no ethical candidate will ever be viable."

                  When you start with a definition that "Republicans (voters and candidates alike) are evil", you're creating your own straw man. I'm not saying that everyone in the Republican Party should be voted for, but you seem to take the other extreme and equate them all with Democrats. I'm not willing to go down that road with you. There are some for whom there is little distinction (McConnell, McCain, and others), but there are others who stand out as noted exceptions to such an overly-broad categorization (Paul, Cruz, Lee, Gowdy, Sessions, and others). I would also point out that the Media is in the bag for the Democrats, but hardly for the Republicans. NBC, CNN, ABC, CBS? They're all biased toward the Dems. Rush, Hannity, and Beck have all voiced their outright displeasure/disgust for the existing Republican Party. Rush even went so far today as to tell the Republican Party that they were on the verge of total collapse due to this Omnibus bill. So I'd definitely make a distinction between how the media treats Democrats vs Republicans.

                  "I consider Independents as supporters of liberty until they prove otherwise, as the GOP and Dems have done."

                  One minor question regarding the thought process here, however: even the Independents (like me FYI) still only have have two choices in most elections. "Registering" for one party or the other merely means getting to vote in the Primaries as well as in the Generals. Ultimately, however, there is no "Independent" Party providing candidates for us to pick from :S The Green Party is a bunch of hippies. The Libertarian Party is a one-issue party centered on drugs. The Constitution Party has a great name, but no financial support, let alone a candidate with any cache. The Tea Party is an idea more than a formal organization (except those front groups set up by the Democrats). There is no Objectivist Party. I'm looking around and ... still looking around...

                  "The ONLY peaceful way for a liberty minded ethical candidate to be viable is if Republicans recognize the GOP as a lying fraud and abandon the GOP en mass. "

                  I don't disagree that the GOP establishment needs to die. That was the whole purpose of forcing out Boehner. But there is no such thing as a void of power - it transfers somewhere.
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                  • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
                    "When you start with a definition that "Republicans (voters and candidates alike) are evil", you're creating your own straw man."
                    You said this. I did not. Your straw man, not mine.

                    The GOP is controlled. You continue to believe that will change if you can change a few elected officials who have no power over the party. You refuse to recognize that any position of power is appointed and voters have no voice whatsoever in that process. Any and all efforts to change this have been failures because they don't get close to the power and they never will. The GOP is corrupted. (The Democratic party is corrupted, too, but supporters of it are getting what they ask for, socialism. They are beyond listening to reason.) Republican voters are living in a dream world, indoctrinated by the system to believe that their votes matter. That just isn't so as long as you continue to waste them on the GOP. You respond to my posts but you aren't seeing reality. You continue to make excuses for your actions supporting the GOP. There is no excuse for supporting evil. Until you recognize this you are enslaved. I have explained this several times and you aren't listening, so I am not going to explain it again. Republican voters have the fate of American liberty in their hands and they are chosing to be slaves.
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                    • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
                      Again, present to me an alternative and I'm more than happy to take a look. You seem to be in favor of the theory that collapse is the only way we're going to get our freedoms back. I see collapse as a total loss of the freedoms we have with absolutely no guarantee that things will return to even the level we enjoy now. If the People aren't willing to vote for their own freedom now, what makes you think that they would overthrow the chains a collapse would bring - a collapse the Democrats are more than eager to bring to fruition?

                      I think that true evil would welcome a collapse and all the chaos that would result: the looting, the violence, the raping and pillaging - the complete abandonment of law and natural rights. The Constitution wasn't born of such and I don't believe it would be re-born of such. The Constitution was built from a time where the people were sufficiently organized and self-sufficient that they could turn their attentions to weighty intellectual matters. I look to Maslow's Hierarchy and how it would apply in a time of upheaval and know that reforming a "more perfect Union" would be the last thing on my mind. The recent riots and such underscore my apprehension. The mobs aren't calling for more reason or a redress of grievances, but for vengeance out of bloodlust and mindlessness.

                      "I have explained this several times and you aren't listening."

                      I'm not agreeing. There is a huge difference.
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                      • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
                        Again. You are not reading my words with any attempt to understand. You are inserting your own and ignoring mine. Your conclusions are yours, not mine, and are not rational after reading my posts. There is no point in my repeating them. They are quite clear.
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                        • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
                          Ah, so you can look into my mind and tell me what I am thinking? And you are the sole arbiter of what is "reasonable?" -1

                          You are welcome to come to your own conclusions on the matter, but you are not welcome to deride me for coming to my own conclusions - even if they differ from yours. Freedom means the power to disagree and someone who is for freedom is willing to allow disagreement graciously. Neither ad hominem, ridicule, nor derision by implication of superior intelligence is all that persuasive to me. If there is a logical fallacy in my argument, point it out. Reiterating your points, however, without addressing my counter-arguments tells me I'm talking to a broken record player - not another person.

                          Adieu.
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                          • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
                            No, I don't read minds, but I can tell when your written statements assign responsibility to me for things I didn't write and offer conclusions that are yours, not mine, and have no support in what I did write. You are welcome to your opinion, of course, and if you can rationally explain your continuing faith in the GOP in spite of their consistent history of deceit and looter activity, I am quite willing to discuss it further.
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                            • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
                              I think you confuse my disagreement with your statement that Republicans are evil with your conclusion that I am a supporter of the GOP. I don't support the GOP. I actively vote for people who challenge the GOP establishment wherever possible - as long as they are not a Democrat. I just can't accept the notion that anyone who votes for a GOP candidate is by your definition necessarily evil. That is the point on which I can not agree with you. I do not and can not categorically assign labels in such a manner. To me it is a not only a fallacy of inclusion, but a prejudicial judgement.

                              I think we both agree that the leadership of the Republican Party has thrown in with the Democrats and is not furthering the cause of liberty. McConnell and Boehner were certainly of that mold, and disappointingly it appears that Paul Ryan is slipping into the same folly. I do not support any such. My support falls to individual candidates, which is why I never have and never will donate to any party apparatus. There are specific office holders currently in government with an (R) next to their name whom I hold in high regard: Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Mike Lee, Jeff Sessions, Trey Gowdy, Raul Labrador, and about a dozen more. I would vote for any of them if they were in my voting district. There are others such as the aforementioned McConnell, John McCain, and others whom I consider the very traitors you (justly IMO) hold contempt for.

                              I am like Hannity, Rush, and Beck: very disappointed in the current path of the Republican Party. The part where you and I differ, I think, is that I still believe there are some with an (R) who are honorable men. Not perfect men, but honorable (the Freedom Caucus comes to mind). I would love to see the rise of a group of leaders who have an affinity for liberty. So far, however, I haven't seen anything come from any of the supposed third party routes that leads me to hope in that direction. And there has been a marked rise in so-called Tea Party candidates within the Republican Party - especially in the last ten years - which leads me to hope that there is still a possibility for redemption there.

                              The proposal you give to just collapse the entire system is one which I view with serious and grave reservations. The notion of the phoenix of the Constitution rising from the ashes of a nation in turmoil is in my mind a plot from a movie far more than the likely outcome in reality. The reality I see would be far darker as those who would rise to power would subject this nation to a tyranny akin to that of the Soviet Union - with all its gulags and secret police. It took sixty years to overthrow that government even partially, and the current system is more one of oligarchical tyrants than anything resembling a true democratic republic. And I do not wish to live the remainder of my life in such circumstances, nor would I wish that upon my children or children's children.

                              Further, if the great light of the United States is to dim to the level of the rest of the socialist world, I do not see what other power on earth is going to encourage the fledgling nations of the world to choose a society that celebrates freedom and equality. There are a plethora of nations who would immediately fall to the tyrant if the US were unable to defend them. The East China Sea has been claimed by the Chinese to the detriment of Vietnam, Japan, Taiwan and the Phillippines. Ukraine has fallen to Russia. More will continue to fall if the US is not present to defend them (Israel being first and foremost).
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                              • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 2 months ago
                                "I just can't accept the notion that anyone who votes for a GOP candidate is by your definition necessarily evil. "
                                No, I never said that and it can't be logically deduced from what I did say about Republican voters.
                                "I think we both agree that the leadership of the Republican Party has thrown in with the Democrats and is not furthering the cause of liberty. "
                                Absolutely. They have done exactly what I repeatedly warned everyone in the Gulch they would do. That prediction did not take any genius to make; it was obvious from the GOP's history of betrayal. Republican voters ignore the obvious historical record repeatedly and doom the liberty of Americans.
                                "The proposal you give to just collapse the entire system"
                                I repeat: stop trying to make me responsible for your conclusions. Nothing I have written says that I favor collapse as a solution. As previously stated, I favor republican voters rationally concluding that the GOP will betray them as in the past and leaving the GOP en mass to vote for a candidate that will more likely defend liberty and reduce government power. Vote for principle. Don't vote for evil.
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                                • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
                                  "No, I never said that and it can't be logically deduced from what I did say about Republican voters."

                                  My apologies if I misunderstood. Your statements were fairly concise and explicit, which is why I used quotes when citing them. I am always open to a restatement for clarification.

                                  "Nothing I have written says that I favor collapse"

                                  So far, the slate of alternatives (i.e. non-Republicans) stands decidedly and disappointingly empty. You seem to hold that anyone with an (R) on their name is establishment and should under no circumstances be voted for. That leaves me few (read: zero) alternatives which would be acceptable under such criteria. This lack leaves me rather frustrated with your line of reasoning.

                                  The history of voting in this nation favors Democratic victory when third party candidates run. The history of Democratic control has been decidedly anti-liberty and non-sustainable, and these policies have only accelerated under this President. So every seat which falls to a Democrat necessarily accelerates policies which advance collapse. Thus if a Democrat ends up in a seat, we know they will vote for collapse.

                                  Yes, I agree that there are some Republicans who go along with the Democrats, but there are also many who do not. I don't see any recognition of these objectors by you. You tend to speak in broad brush strokes, openly equating every single member of either party as being an active proponent of bad policy. When I look at the voting records, I see the objectors.

                                  "Vote for principle. Don't vote for evil."

                                  I agree we should vote for principle. I reserve the right to judge candidates individually rather than collectively, however, as to their fitness for office.
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                                  • freedomforall replied 10 years, 2 months ago
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                      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
                        If you don't want to read them why should I bother to repeat myself....get off the reframing crap it isn't going to work and you are not good enough . All you are doing is supporting my objective.and proving my oft repeated comments. Where's your solution? i've read all your stuff and each time as it changes shake my head in wonder in which cloud does yours reside. Lakoff also ties everything to freedom but only to obey. A good example of Maslov in action are social workers and public school teachers.

                        Skipping all the rest of it.....I'll make it simple enough for anyone to understand once last time and cut out everything but the end..

                        I'm in favor of the military upholding their oath of office.

                        People want to burn down their neighborhoods let them sleep in the snow.

                        Personally I see t it as a 24 hour over the weekend turnover with violence provided only by the looney tunes looking for free booze and tv sets. Fueled by Maslov's Theory no doubt.
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                        • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
                          Comments like "get off the reframing crap it isn't going to work and you are not good enough" show to me two things: that you have a rather high opinion of yourself and that you overvalue your ability as a communicator. Restatement is the prime method by which a good communicator expresses back to the other that he/she is actually listening and comprehending what the other is saying. I'd encourage you to try it - not deride it. It's quite useful - and not just in forum posts.

                          "Mine is General and his/her name is Martial Law."

                          Thanks for being so explicit. (That's not sarcasm by the way. I sincerely appreciate a forthright statement.) Just a question, but who is going to lead this military revolution you desire? Do you have fantasies of "Red Dawn", "Hunger Games", or "Star Wars", forgetting that none of those was an overnight affair? The type of general civil unrest you're talking about doesn't accomplish regime change. And it isn't as if those who have manipulated themselves into power aren't going to be prepared to hold onto it. We have plenty of modern-day examples of dictators and the lengths they will go to (Mao, Stalin, Castro, Assad, etc.) to maintain power.

                          "People want to burn down their neighborhoods let them sleep in the snow."

                          Yep, but what about when the fires spread to consume not only their houses, but yours as well? I'm all for supporting personal responsibility, but unfortunately, some others' bad choices also affect me.
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                  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
                    We didn't create them. The purpose of Boehner was a diversion which in the end did nothing but change the actors on the stage. Nothing substantive has changed. Just the makeup. There is no such thing as a liberty minded Republican.There is no void of power. It's found left of center with the Republicans and their socialist masters.

                    If you think the opposite prove it. Even in an election year the arrogant bastards give us nothing. That's the reality just spin, yes men, cheerleaders and clown show.

                    Same old tired crap. Save it for Mother Jones.

                    The GOP did die. They have a new face now. Socialist lickspittles.
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