I do like the movie RELIGILOUS. One of the very few things I like on the subject ! Shows the craziness of dogmatic relugion

Yes, there do seem to be quite a few "moderate Christians" today. Perhaps there are some moderate Muslims, too.

The Enlightenment was more than political influence, it emphasized the endorsement of reason as included in individualism. The politics of freedom and individualism followed, and prosperity followed that.

Muslims won't have their own Enlightenment. The Enlightenment philosophically overthrew the intellectual dominance of religion in the west. Those in muslim regions can become something better either by embracing the emphasis of the Enlightenment instead of Islam or by overthrowing their religious dominance with their own rediscovery of reason, but it wouldn't be a "muslim enlightenment". The Enlightenment wasn't a "Christian Enlightenment" either. The fundamental shift to reason was a replacement overthrowing the supernaturalism, dogmatism and asceticism of religion.

Ed; I'm not sure you missed anything. It's more about my thinking on the subject. This is a response I just made to ewv:
"ewv; Yes, it's the irrationality of religious beliefs and world views, but it's more. We recognize the Enlightenment's impact on our ideas of individual liberty and government, but few are willing to talk about it's impact on freeing us and our daily lives from the strictures of Christianity's various sects and their continuous fights for primacy and control of our minds and behaviors.

Ours was the first government that denied religion a seat in our governance. Christianity didn't voluntarily reduce their drive for that governmental influence and control or societal control that it had always held. It was the ideas of individualism, rights, and freedom that pushed them out of more and more of the public sphere. The religious haven't given up, by any means--but for the most part, their influences in our daily thinking that many of us can avoid them for the most part.

When Muslims have their own Enlightenment, then we'll begin to see peace and growth for the individual in that part of the world."

ewv; Yes, it's the irrationality of religious beliefs and world views, but it's more. We recognize the Enlightenment's impact on our ideas of individual liberty and government, but few are willing to talk about it's impact on freeing us and our daily lives from the strictures of Christianity's various sects and their continuous fights for primacy and control of our minds and behaviors.

Ours was the first government that denied religion a seat in our governance. Christianity didn't voluntarily reduce their drive for that governmental influence and control or societal control that it had always held. It was the ideas of individualism, rights, and freedom that pushed them out of more and more of the public sphere. The religious haven't given up, by any means--but for the most part, their influences in our daily thinking that many of us can avoid them for the most part.

When Muslims have their own Enlightenment, then we'll begin to see peace and growth for the individual in that part of the world.

I think you know what's in the Quran about infidels.
So do the so-called moderate Muslims, who also need to make money, run things and raise kids.
All civilizations uses soldiers to do the fighting for them. Fighting can be done in different ways.

listening

you are being mean. she's a MN girl-"scoop of vanilla-don't waste my time!"

You need to explain your version of wrong doers.

What?

They need the Enlightenment, not reformation. The Protestant Reformation was just as irrational as the original.

Deuteronomy in the Bible, usually attributed to the 7th century BC. The Bible taken as sacred text has been the source of different competing cults branching out for centuries. Once accepted on faith as a means of knowledge there are no limits and no way to resolve the conflicts because it is not subject to rational standards.

Zenphamy: "There are no 'Moderate Muslims' anymore than there are 'Moderate Evangelical Christians' and I'm not sure there ever has been."

My first reaction was what is a "moderate muslim"? What is moderate mysticism, jihad, sharia law, and irrationalism? There are muslims who don't ordinarily live as if they take it fully seriously in their ordinary lives -- most American muslims don't run around beheading people, but in terms of belief, "moderate muslim" is a contradiction in terms. Irrationality is poison, and as with anyone who accepts faith as a means of knowledge he could blow at any time, especially when pushed along with acceptance of the muslim doctrines.

A recent series of interviews of American muslims revealed that even when they denied being 'radical' they still all accepted the irrational doctrines.

That is why anyone professing to be muslim or living with the appearance of it is suspicious.