Is Voting a Right?

Posted by khalling 11 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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There are natural rights and then there are procedural rules designed to protect those rights. Voting is not a natural right.
If your natural rights are being protected/respected, then how is NOT being able to vote an infringement on one's freedoms?
In our country's founding, there were lots of restrictions on who could vote.
As a matter of fact, over two century's we have voted away most of the freedoms enumerated in the Constitution.
On a different front: Often I find myself reminding people who are younger than myself that many freedoms I have lost over my lifetime and the lifetime of my parents, are acutely felt because you had them and took them for granted or the opposite cherished them and they have been taken away. IF you are raised without them, you have no idea what has been lost.


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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 11 years, 9 months ago
    It is not a natural right. It is a duty and an honor, taken too lightly by too many!
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    • Posted by 11 years, 9 months ago
      can a free person have a duty?
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
        Of course. I have a duty to provide for my children.

        Likewise, so long as we agree to our current form of government, then I have a duty to exercise my capacity to indicate my preference in representation. Not to do so should eliminate my ability to complain about the outcome, not that that is feasible.
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        • Posted by 11 years, 8 months ago
          you can assume duties but there is no duty to act in a free society.
          There are many ways of advancing one's life without voting. To lose the right of complaint because you chose not to exercise a procedural right is wrong. There may be other important opportunities that supersede voting or there may not be a candidate you would choose to vote for. This should not invalidate one's right to complain.
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      • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 11 years, 9 months ago
        Depends upon your definition...
        du·ty
        ˈd(y)o͞otē/Submit
        noun
        1.
        a moral or legal obligation; a responsibility.
        "it's my duty to uphold the law"
        synonyms: responsibility, obligation, commitment; More
        (of a visit or other undertaking) done from a sense of moral obligation rather than for pleasure.
        modifier noun: duty
        "a fifteen-minute duty visit"
        2.
        a task or action that someone is required to perform.
        "the queen's official duties"
        synonyms: job, task, assignment, mission, function, charge, place, role, responsibility, obligation...
        Unfortunately, in today's world, if you are to protect your liberty it is an action you are required to perform. Loose interpretation...
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        • Posted by 11 years, 9 months ago
          wow. definitions 1 and 2 are quite different. I vote because I think I am morally compelled. It's one of my weapons in the intellectual battle.
          However, I can hear the argument that the system is so flawed, the weapon is useless and therefor no honor in the act.
          I will say, I felt the removal of voting for a period of time for the guests n this site acutely. It really bothered me.
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      • Posted by $ stargeezer 11 years, 9 months ago
        They have freedom. As a result of freedom there is a cost - there is no free lunch. That cost of freedom is duty. It may be assumed or rejected and either choice is valid, but the choices are not equal.

        A person may exercise freedom by not serving to defend the freedom that gives them choice. By doing so, they pass on certain perks awarded to those who do serve, earned by virtue of service. but both the person who serves and the person who does not serve enjoy freedom.

        A soldier in a volunteer army does not serve as obligation or coercion, but because they have a sense of duty to defend the system that would give them the freedom to choose to serve or not. They choose to serve and are equal to those who do not serve, but by serving they acquire benefits awarded to those who do serve.

        In this country we choose to not link voting privileges to service - only to citizenship.

        My personal opinion is that voting should be linked to service. If your voting right is bot worth purchasing by service, you will not value it properly. IMHO
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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 11 years, 9 months ago
    Men in a state of Nature have no need to vote. They survive, or not, based on their wits and their strength. Governments are formed and constitutions are written by men who are no longer living in a state of Nature. Their right to vote depends on the type of government formed. Collectivist governments (tribes, monarchies, dictatorships, communist, socialist, theocracies, etc.) deny their citizens of any meaningful right to vote. In democracies (India) and limited democracies (America, England), citizens most demonstrably have the right to vote. You are conflating natural rights and freedom.
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    • Posted by 11 years, 9 months ago
      nope. saying voting is not a natural "right." I am saying more important than the ability to vote is the protection/respect for natural rights. I am assuming politic not state of nature.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 8 months ago
        Nonsense! Nothing prevents people in a democracy from voting away the rights of others. For proof, look around you. I am saying that the "right" to vote is contractual, a social contract, and you buy the right. In your example, you buy the right by paying for bonds, one share is one vote. In "Starship Troopers" Heinlein posited that only veterans could vote. (When you vote, you call upon the full power of the state to do your bidding. Only someone who understands that should wield that power.) Perhaps only people who pay taxes (positive taxes: no rebates) should vote. You have not stated what your standard is. You toss this out as a half-baked idea. I can put it in the oven, on a grill, in a pan with butter... but the bottom line is that voting is not a natural right. On that, we agree.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 8 months ago
    Buying a voting share would be proof of citizenship; and it would nullify the status of "illegal alien." It is a tradition that immigrants prove their desire to become citizens by serving in the Armed Forces. I had an uncle born in Italy who served in the US Army in World War II. See my post about Baghat Singh Sindh. In my family, my grandparents occasionally told of a man they knew who was turned away at the polls for lack of citizenship and he produced a Purple Heart in reply. Today, the US military has many Filipinos who seek to become US citizens. The same theory applies here: you buy in, you buy citizenship. And it applies to children. When Herbert Spencer was really a liberal in the 1830s, he advocated for voting rights for children: they work; they pay taxes; they should vote. QED.

    Robbie53024 wrote: "It would have to be limited to those that reach the age of majority and legal citizens, otherwise it would encourage lots of babies and illegals."

    Moreover, shares (citizenship) could be bought and sold repeatedly. The price of a vote would rise close to elections and fall in the off season. People could change "citizenship" i.e., voting rights often, repeatedly, and for a profit (buy low, sell high). In point of fact voting for President of the USA is pointless but voting in the Mayoral Primary is highly important. So, the shrewd citizen should sell their vote before the one and buy it back before the other.

    Robbie53024 wrote: "What would work might be to issue everyone one share and they could sell their share on the open market. Those that value their vote would only sell it for a lot, if at all. Those that didn't would get rid of it at a low price and quickly and live with the consequence."

    But it would not be a PERMANENT consequence. Why is citizenship different from any other service or commodity?
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 11 years, 8 months ago
    No, it's not a right. It's a regulated activity. Rights are ours by existence, unalienable - if regulated it becomes alienable.

    I disagree with the statement that we've voted away most of the freedoms enumerated in the Constitution. Rather, we've failed to exercise our right to enforce the protection of our natural rights. We've been cowards and we've been lazy and we've been fools. Anyone that imagines that a vote means anything or serves to protect freedom is living in a fool's paradise. A vote is merely your acceptance of the slavery imposed on you by the power mongers, the manipulators, the user's, and the looters of our society.

    The ONLY way you maintain the ability to exercise your rights is to exercise all of them, particularly that right to hold accountable anyone that acts in such a way as to diminish those rights. That accountability is not a simple vote to replace them in office. It must be proportional to the right they tried to diminish or take away as well as any personal or property gains they received or gained from those activities.

    But until we learn and accept that our rights exist outside of and despite of governance and that whether or not we voted, we do not owe respect and fealty to any government or representative of such, we have no freedom. Respect is to be earned. Fealty is slavery. The power of your vote is illusion.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
    Not sure how I missed this. NO, voting is not a natural right. It should be an earned privilege. Nothing acquired without cost is valued.

    You are very correct that at the founding of the US there were many restrictions on voting. It was not covered in the Constitution as the Constitution laid that responsibility on the states. Some of those states allowed women to vote, some allowed free blacks to vote, some restricted voting to land-owners.
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    • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 11 years, 8 months ago
      We could certainly use some of those restrictions now. A vested interest in the nation would be a nice requirement - citizenship, home/business/land ownership. If you collect welfare or live off public assistance you cannot vote.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
        While I could accept the welfare/Medicaid restriction, would you extend that to military disablement? I am a disabled veteran and eliminating my franchise due to a loss suffered in service to my country would seem counter-productive.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 9 months ago
    If voting is not a natural right, would it be okay in principle to have a test of basic knowledge of what you're voting as a requirement to vote? If it could be done fairly, I would be for such a test. Right now money influences politics so much, I think, because people are swayed by ads. People with more facts would be less swayed. We wouldn't have to restrict people's right to spend money on speech. The money in politics would be less powerful because people voting would know more about what they're voting for.
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  • Posted by mminnick 11 years, 9 months ago
    The right to vote. On what basis does a person have the "right to vote"? Most basic would be to be a citizen of the city, county, state or nation in which one resides. this is achieved either by birth or by naturalization.
    Are there any other requirements? This depends upon the laws of the various controlling authorities.
    It seems to me that citizenship is the only requirement. Are you a citizen of the voting region you reside in? If yes you nmay vote. If not, you may not. there are conditions place upon this for criminals and others, but in general, If you live there you may vote if a citizen.
    After property rights this is the most important right. (see Khalling follow-up post for more info on this aspect of rights).
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    • Posted by 11 years, 9 months ago
      just so I understand....you are saying that after property rights, voting is the next most important "right"?
      I disagree it is a right.
      What about the right to self defense? Free speech? association? contract? ......see where I'm going
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      • Posted by mminnick 11 years, 9 months ago
        If you do not have the right to vote, you have none of the others. voting provides a means to secure the rights you mention. You may either vote directly (democracy) of elect vote for you on the issues (republic). Without a choice in the laws you live by and and secure the rights you have, you have none but what your "brute strength" allows you to take.
        That is one reason I object to the wording of the 14th amendment. It changes the rights of a citizen to privileges. As you know, Privileges age something given, not something you have.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
          I totally disagree. There are plenty of legal residents in the US that are not legally permitted to vote, yet retain all other rights. Heck, in some respects, they have more "rights." I remember a convicted murderer who was a legal citizen of another country who was not provided his "right to speak with his home consulate" and thus his trial was overturned. That isn't a "right" that most of us have, not even in another country (at least not in Mexico).
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        • Posted by 11 years, 9 months ago
          all the ability to vote gives you the "right" for others to turn you into a slave. The right to vote is a procedural safeguard. If you have a right to vote, but not a right to your life, what good does that do you? You can't exercise the right to vote if you are not "alive"-except in Chicago.
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          • Posted by mminnick 11 years, 9 months ago
            We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree.
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            • Posted by 11 years, 9 months ago
              ok. but won't you explain?
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              • Posted by mminnick 11 years, 9 months ago
                My explanation. Not sure it is all that coherent but here goes.
                You say “all the ability to vote gives you the "right" for others to turn you into a slave””. No one has the right to turn anyone into a slave. You may give permission to someone to make you a slave but they don’t have the right to do so. They may have sufficient force to capture you, bind you and make you work for them. Capability to do something does not equal the right to do something. Might does not equal right.
                There is an underpinning that has not been mentioned and should be.
                The right to vote entails having a governmental system that recognizes the basic rights of all people. The right to “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. If you live in a dictatorship or Monarchy or Oligarchy that does not recognize these right and actively suppressed them we have a different situation.
                Without a government that recognizes the rights of individuals, you are correct, voting doesn’t matter at all. There you have the right to establish a government that does so recognize the rights of people to be free. We did it in `775 (the true start of the revolution) and codified it in 1`776, and finalized in in 1787.

                You say “The right to vote is a procedural safeguard. If you have a right to vote, but not a right to your life, what good does that do you? You can't exercise the right to vote if you are not "alive"-except in Chicago. “
                If you have allowed the government to deprive you of all freedom, then you have decayed to a state that is in need of recovery. If your vote is meaningless because the government has slowly (or quickly) taken you rights away, you must re-assert you rights and take back your freedoms. You no longer live in a Republic or a democracy. At best you live in an Oligarchy and at worst a true dictatorship. At this point you must reassert your rights.
                Consider England at the time of the revolution. If you lived in England, you were represented in Parliament. If you lived in the colonies, you had no representation. You did not have a vote. Having no voice in the Parliament you (the colonists) were effectively slave of he King and Parliament. You had to comply with the laws or face involuntary servitude (prison). The colonies did what needed to be done. They became free.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
            So long as you retain the right to leave the jurisdiction that you object to, then you are not in slavery. You might not want to leave, but that's too bad. Otherwise the only choice you have is anarchy.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 9 months ago
    I agree that voting is not a natural right. Just obviously, by inspection, why would we need citizenship versus mere residency. Residents are free to enter into contracts. Who you work for, whom you hire, who you deal with is no one else's business. Legal or illegal immigrant may make a difference for political participation, but not for economic engagement.

    (To figure this out, j_IR1776wg, start with the axiom that a right is something for which you do not need to ask permission.)

    The simplest and earliest barrier was that in order to vote, you had to pay taxes, i.e, own property. One of the basic problems with that is that merchants typically do not own land, but rent their homes. Also, their inventories often are not their own property. Moreover, the essence of production is human intelligence and there is no way to measure that - or has not been. (Perhaps holding patents or copyrights could be recognized as evidence of production. After all no farmer ever had to prove that their acres were productive, only that they held them and paid taxes on them.)

    In _The Secret of the League: the story of a social war_ by Ernest Bramah (1907) after the producers take back the country, they institute a voting mechanism like that of corporations: one share, one vote, with no limit.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
      One share of what? $ paid in taxes?
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 8 months ago
        The government would sell bonds. Right now, T-bills are denominated in $1000, so $1000 would buy you one vote and George Soros would have more than one.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
          I wouldn't be in favor of that, as it would overly advantage the currently rich. What would work might be to issue everyone one share and they could sell their share on the open market. Those that value their vote would only sell it for a lot, if at all. Those that didn't would get rid of it at a low price and quickly and live with the consequence. It would have to be limited to those that reach the age of majority and legal citizens, otherwise it would encourage lots of babies and illegals.
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  • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 9 months ago
    Well said Kh. I often blame the educational system for what has happened. The left took over education and patiently waited until they had enough idiots to help implement their agenda. We have an uphill battle ahead of us.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
      They haven't been patiently waiting. It has been an unrelenting pounding of their collectivist agenda. Unfortunately, they believe in controlling their fellow man, so they seek out those types of roles and positions. Those who truly value liberty tend not to seek those types of positions as it is anti-thetical to core beliefs. Why would I seek elective office when I don't believe in controlling other people?
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      • Posted by airfredd22 11 years, 8 months ago
        Re: Robbie53024,
        Perhaps you need to look upon seeking elective office for the purpose originally intended, to protect the Constitution and the citizens that live in this nation under that protection.

        I do agree that most elected politicians seem to think that passing laws limiting the lives of citizens should be their purpose. No one could be more wrong than those politicians.. Every law or rule needed was indeed covered by the founding fathers, that's why we used to think of them as being the brightest men that this nation ever produced.

        Lets return to their principles and return this nation to its former glory and leadership in the world. I am an immigrant and have seen the changes brought on by these mice of politicians today, and these changes have not been for the better.

        Fred Speckmann
        commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
          Actually, I'm a candidate for local county board of supervisors.
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          • Posted by 11 years, 8 months ago
            good work Robbie. Hope you win
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 8 months ago
              Actually, I'm kind of mixed about it. The other person running is a retired gentleman. From what I can find out about him, he's no raging liberal, but he's been on the local town board (not mine, but the one just east of here) and in 4 years, the paper has only mentioned him twice. So, doesn't seem to do much, which for government, I'm all in favor.

              For me, it is a sacrifice. Since I have to travel (mostly) for work, telling my boss that I will need to be home one week a month should I win, is going to be a challenge. He's a pretty good sort, and I'm sure won't have a problem, but it will mean that instead of my willingness to travel at the drop of a hat, I will need to have some times blocked out.

              Besides just ensuring that county government doesn't veer out of control, I'm also enraged that we own an elder care facility and 2 golf courses. Yes, the county government is in direct competition with private industry. That's not government's role and I want to move to get rid of them.
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  • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 11 years, 9 months ago
    Good post kh. I think that depends on what the voting is associated with, but in general, no I don't think it's a right.

    A recent post here showing the low information voters is a prime example that not everyone should be voting at the government level by their choice of not being informed on the issues, people running for the office.

    As far as organizations, associations, privately run web sites, there can and should be a pay to play factor and that is determined by the board of the organization or owner etc.
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    • Posted by freedomforall 11 years, 9 months ago
      As far as organizations, associations, privately run web sites, just don't give the participants the vote and then take it away without any notice, or you may have resistance even on a privately run web site.

      The biggest advantage that leviathan has is the short memory (and lifespan) of the people. The government has learned they must slowly raise the temperature to boil the live frogs.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 11 years, 9 months ago
    It's a question of who are the 'people' and 'men' referenced in the Declaration of Independence and in the Constitution that have the right to form a government for the protection of their rights. My problem arises when those voting are receiving benefits of any kind from the government, including employees of that government. I think that brings up a conflict of interest and the patronage systems of the past that have been so corruptive.

    I tell my children of a time in my life when you had to actually look for government rather than having it imposed in your face every day from every front. A time when people actually solved their own problems and directed their own lives.
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