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How far down are we?

Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 7 months ago to Philosophy
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How far down the wrong side of the bell-curve is the USA? Can the country turn itself around, and if so, how? Or, is the USA heading for an unrecoverable demise?


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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 7 months ago
    We are witnessing another dawn of another new era of commercial expansion, cultural transference and transformation. We are not on the downside of anything.

    At worst, life continues pretty much as it always has and is generally upward and onward. Things are getting better, as they usually do. Yes, there was a Bronze Age Collapse. Yes, there were the Huns, and the Mongols, and the Turks, and the Black Death, and Yellow Fever ... And, yes, now we have ISIS and new biological threats on the horizon...

    But, when Julius Caesar conquered Gaul, he killed one million of them. In one incident, his troops chopped the arms off several thousand captives, and for that, we look to the Great and Glorious Roman Republic cum Empire, Pax Romana - "I found it a city of brick and left it a city of marble," said Octavian Caesar in his dotage.

    To understand the difference between that and the skyscrapers of New York City is to grasp the essential attributes of a truly successful civilization versus what Ayn Rand called "monument builders."

    Allow me to suggest that we do not perceive large changes while they are rolling forward. No one woke up on Christmas Day 803 and said, "Hey! The Dark Ages are over!" any more than they went to bed on September 4, 476, and said, "Damn, the Dark Ages are here. See you in 375 years. I'm sleeping through this..."

    Let me ask you: When was the American Revolution?
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yet there are many who claim there is no such thing as free will nor the ability to reason. They believe this, and that everything we do is somehow foreordained. (I am not among them.) Now just imagine the contradiction here. If everything is outside our control, and everything is God's will, why would God demand of people what they cannot do, since they have no will of their own? What a pile of excrement...
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  • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's politicians for you, always shooting for Park Place and Boardwalk. They'll never learn it seems that taxation = poverty. The more taxation, the more poverty.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Volitional consciousness is more wide ranging than independent thinking. It is free will. That is the biggest bugaboo of the religionists. They needed something to explain why the Human Race doesn't simply fall into line with God's commands like so many tin soldiers, plus it gives them the excuse for sin.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Independent thinking is "volitional consciousness". Most people, having learned as children the basics of values and behaviors in their society, operate on the default setting of not questioning, of going along with the status quo and views held by their culture. And that makes them prime targets for mind control and being subordinated to the dominant ideas that have managed to get control of that culture, whether through religion or philosophy.

    Even the so-called "critical thinking" allegedly taught to school children is just a ludicrous scheme to substitute some views for others, still within the control matrix of the rulers. Real independent thought must be stifled, and if it can't be, then condemn or even kill the thinker as a rebel or traitor. It's a case of meme warfare, the confrontation of conflicting ideas. Human heads are merely their vehicle, and human emotions their tool. It's Darwinism of the software.

    Rand kept admonishing readers to "check your premises". Not easy for most people to do. The emotions get in the way to help protect the existing hold, to avoid questioning the belief systems in place. Like the body's immune system, the mind's belief systems have a panoply of devices to keep them intact, to resist change, including fear, guilt and loyalty. That's why it's so hard to get people to "change their minds", especially about anything to do with values.

    Turning on volitional consciousness the first time is the breakthrough to rationality. In time it can become a habit. Any persuasion we hope to do in that direction is one mind at a time. That's the price of being an individual.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "... we got the income tax in 1913, the top rate was 7 percent. By 1980, the top rate was 70 percent."

    True enough. But, in fact, the rate had reached 77 percent by 1918, just five years after Congress created its first, single-digit levy.

    taxhistory.org
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If so then don't waste it on a flat tax that's where income tax started. 7% of everything over some very high incomes $4000 a year which in 2013 terms was $100,000.) for the time, amounts. It's still an income tax and still fascist in nature. Only the end user consumption tax coupled with enforceable spending limits meaning no debt would be acceptable given the unacceptability of a government that can't be trusted with more than a dime in 2015 values.
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  • Posted by Mitch 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Fair enough, I can see that you truly believe that Anarchy is a valid form of government. Let’s start with what we can agree upon:

    No government welfare one bit what so every, you must support yourself or parish.
    No government education system, we can do better for less.
    No restrictions on freedoms, physical, financial or virtual.
    No taxation on income, property or wealth - some form of income would be necessary to support our boarders.

    Now, with anarchy…
    We wouldn’t have local law enforcement or a judicial system. You wouldn’t have recourse for damages.
    I could develop a swarm of drones that can be used for offensive purposes. Like killing you to take what you have because I like it.
    You would spend that vast majority of your wealth defending what you have. I would become very wealth selling you systems to defend yourself.
    We wouldn’t be not a country let alone a country I would wish to live in.
    Under anarchy, we would fall to hostel governments.
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  • Posted by Mitch 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree also with you but a flat tax is better then what we have today.

    Ayn Rand stated that she felt that America got it correct with the Constitution and Bill of Rights but didn’t go far enough. She felt as though financial freedom needs to be included. Can we have a mulligan?
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    you are really good at this Plato stuff. I'll give you that and a point. But I don't follow that system. So I'm not bound by it's constraints. The rock still hurts.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not so. Pragmatism infers certainty on those who espouse it. It is used as a certainty by pragmatists whereas I pointed out the possibility of uncertainty regardless of how careful the construct.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Until it's replaced. Income tax is a left wing socialist fascist inspired control mechanism. Flat tax will do nothing to change that basic fundamental objective truth A is A,.

    Government though I wonder about this one needs a budget to carry out it's purposes. The control of that is in the hands of the responsible citizens. Since none of them are voting anymore it's up for grabs. Why do i say that? Because the voting is rigged from candidate selection to candidate retirement. as a millionaire. Vote for someone or something else and it's given to the individual you opposed. Stolen by a crooked evil system. So...that IS our system and our shame. We could have voted differently but we spent too many decades choosing evil.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    OR...There are only three things certain. One Birth, One life, One death per customer. Nothing is certain about taxes except they will go up.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 7 months ago
    Now I shall answer the question. Objectively. A few months ago we were approaching 18 trillion in debt. A few days ago I posted that without checking the facts. In fact we had passed 18 trillion and the clock now shows 18 trillion plus for a real thrill look at the time clock to 2019 or the real debt figures at the bottom. The dive is vertical. something has to give. Easy answer inflation, devaluation, debt repudiation and bread at $22 dollars a loaf. But your retirement fund will take a huge hit just like last time. Enjoy that last of bread..it's one tortilla month in your future. usdebtclock.org checked your retirement fund lately?
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's a pragmatic out. Pragmatism leads to relativism. In short the theory of 'no truth.' Now we're calling it historical mutations. Fine. It comes in various forms. For three people it is "That which serves the party or advances it's cause is the truth. For one other "What may be necessary today may not be so tomorrow...Therefore I may - nay, must - change under changed conditions tomorrow what I consider correct today. This is the Heraclitian Doctrine. The truth is mutable, there are no principles there are no absolutes. If tomorrow Obama wishes it then two times two is five.

    Not a shred of objectivist here. Just a cup of Hemlock.

    The first three were Lenin, Stalin, and the leaders of the Democrat Party. The second was Adolf Hitler. The last sentence was George Goebbels, but I switched Hitler for Obama.

    It is the long trail of Plato, Kant Hegel, on to Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and the leaders of Socialism in the US today featuring George Lakoff and the secular progressives. That line of reasoning did not start with Aristotle and end with. It was 58 degrees F. at seven AM local time. "It ends with give me my orders and I will carry them out." "Shoot yourself." "Bang,":

    There is no 'however.' A is A. Objectivist If i hit you in the head with this rock it will hurt. That is true today, it was true yesterday and it will be true tomorrow. A is A. Subjectivist. If i hit myself in the head with that rock it may or may not hurt and because it did nor did not today doesn't mean the same held true yesterday or wil lhold true tomorrow.

    But your sentence does have a practical use. Subjectivism leads to dogmatism, the blind faith
    that allows men to commit suicide upon order.

    History in fact shows us no such thing.and never without reason. There is always a reason for those with the intellect and reasoning ability to go looking for the answer . Predictors I'll leave to the worshipers of the spirit world. These days not even weather forecasters can use that excuse.
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  • Posted by Solver 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I fully agree.
    But, it will take life times before enough individuals can open their reasoning minds to question quotes like this,
    “Nothing is certain except death and taxes.”
    Ben Franklin
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  • Posted by Solver 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Oops!
    That should have been "humanity," not humidity. Me and the spelling checker both goofed.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Scary, ain't it?
    All the planning, work, saving only to have some jerks in DC screw you.
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  • Posted by Kittyhawk 9 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    See, we anarchists aren't that scary after all, are we? ;)

    "So you really want a society without rules, laws or structure at all?" Again, please try to put aside for a moment the social brainwashing, and actually read the words I've written. I wrote about voluntarily-funded protection and dispute resolution services; isn't it obvious and necessary that there would be rules which they are enforcing?

    Anarchists believe in the NAP, the non-aggression principle. You are free to do as you choose, with the exclusion that you may not harm, or threaten to harm, another person or his/her property. There are nuances to the rule which can be worked out through application, but it is, in my opinion, the one main rule which should be enforced. There should be no "victimless crimes," and there shouldn't be such a profusion of ridiculous laws that the average person commits several felonies a day without even knowing it.
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