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Rand Paul position on immigration puts him at odds with most Gulchers

Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 5 months ago to News
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Let the debate begin! Pardon me if I don't get too involved in this one. I have a major deadline coming up on Friday. Meeting that deadline is definitely in my best interest.
SOURCE URL: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/11/16/rand-paul-introduces-bill-to-bar-refugees-from-syria-subject-french-citizens-to-waiting-period/


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    Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 5 months ago
    I think you'd find that most Gulchers are in favor of limited immigration and enforcement of immigration laws. Exactly the opposite of the illegal policy of the current traitorous administration.

    Good success with the deadline.
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    • Posted by JohnConnor352 8 years, 5 months ago
      Objectivists would be in favor of enforcing only rational immigration laws, which from my analysis only include things like criminal records.
      Criteria such as race, gender, sex, and national origin (excluding those countries with whom we are at war) are not rational criteria for restricting access. As Rand herself states, such criteria are "the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social, or political significance to a man's genetic lineage..."
      This quote spoke specifically to race, but it still applies when dealing with other characteristics that are not choice-based (don't start the transgendered discussion here please).
      Finally, since we have freedom of religion here, restricting access based on religion, as so many are proposing lately, would be contrary not only to our constitution, but to our very founding principles.
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      • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 5 months ago
        The thought behind Article 1 (of "religious liberty") in the Bill of Rights was to allow all Protestant denominationshas well as followers of Judaism freedom to exist alongside Catholics and Episcopalians.
        Never would the Founding Fathers have comsidered Islam as a viable option to protect.
        The thought would have been foreign to them...especially considering what they had to battle against on the Barbary Coast.
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        • Posted by TheRealBill 8 years, 5 months ago
          We can't make a tenable assertion as to whether or not the FF would consider Islam a religion "worth protecting". As such assertions like that represent what we personally feel or believe rather than fact.

          As to what the battles with the Barbary States, those were after the creation of the U.S. and as such can't be used to support a claim that it influenced what they considered protected by the constitution. It should also be noted that the actions which occurred along the Barbary Coast were the result of privacy not of religious origin. Also that the first nation to formally and publicly recognize the United States of America as a soverign nation was the muslim nation of Morocco - on the states along the Barbary Coast.

          Indeed it can, and has been, argued that your assertion is the inverse of the known history. For example, John Locke said "neither Pagan nor Mahamedan nor Jew ought to be excluded from the civil rights of the Commonwealth because of his religion." where "Mahamedan" is what we now refer to as Muslim. Jefferson himself referenced this in his work. Notable also is that Jefferson owned a copy of the Qu'ran for a decade prior to writing the founding documents, so to imply he wasn't well versed on it borders on absurdity in my opinion as he was known to be a very intellectually minded man. Jefferson was not a "fan" of the religion, but that didn't stop him from advocating strongly and publicly that they should not be treated as less than Christians or Jews based on their religion.

          Washington, also, specifically noted Muslism were considered on par with Christians when he wrote to a friend that a person's religious beliefs are not of consideration in hiring: “If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mahometans, Jews or Christian of an Sect, or they may be Atheists.” Note as well he also specifically mentions atheists as well.

          Where people often go wrong with a surface review of the available material is in mis-applying the sentiments expressed. Often many of the founders, to include signatories in the ratification of the constitution, express their doubt that a Muslim, Jew, or Atheist would be elected. This is not the same as preventing (or "not protecting") them.

          Where people of today go wrong is in conflating tolerance for a given religious belief or non-belief as the same as accepting or equating it. Religion isn't the only area today's society has this problem in, but it is a pretty big one. When you review the period's literature they speak of actions making the difference, not beliefs. They had been religiously persecuted and thus knew what it was like to be put down, to be excluded, and to be attacked based not on their actions but instead on their beliefs.

          A belief, like a gun, does nothing it can not act in it's own. The founding fathers through their actions and words demonstrate an understanding of this fact, and separate a person's beliefs from their actions. To claim religious liberty was intended to only apply to Christians and Jews is to ignore the facts of the era and apply personal desire by conversion of statements from one category to another. Conversely those who argue that the FF actually sought out to include and incorporate Islam or Muslisms are making the very same mistakes and fallacies.
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          • Posted by ewv 8 years, 5 months ago
            Regardless of the early more limited experience with Muslims in the 18th century, the principle that government is not to favor or obstruct religious beliefs applies to all all of them. The First Amendment did not discriminate. Christianity has and was given no favored position. (The mistake was in limiting the First Amendment ban on interference in religion instead of all ideas without regard to religion.)

            The question before us now, however, is not about religion as such, and not the First Amendment, but the anti-American ideology and zealotry of non-citizens seeking to exploit, infiltrate and destroy us. The First Amendment does not and should not prevent us from identifying the ideology of enemies of the country and keeping them out. Muslims from the mideast would have to demonstrate that they don't take their religion seriously, for the same reason that Ben Carson (properly) said he could not support a Muslim as president of the US. We have no obligation to take in swarms of refugees, whether legitimate or not, because of their "need" and regardless to the threat to our country. With the terrorism, wars, and spread of Islam in its ideological war against civilization as such, it has never been more important to recognize the importance of ideas and their consequences, and act accordingly on all fronts. Floating abstractions claiming "freedom of religion" on behalf of "refugees" -- such as the recent demagoguery from the Obama who hates the 'tea party' far more than he opposes Islamo fascism -- are not an excuse to sacrifice us.
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            • Posted by TheRealBill 8 years, 5 months ago
              I would only stipulate that the objective evidence available indicates the vast majority of the Muslim world does not share the extremist positions and viewpoints. Christians of nearly every sect pick and choose what portions of the bible to adhere to, thus it should be no surprise members of the Islam religion do as well. As such I have to disagree that requiring one to disavow their religion in attempt to identify extremists among the religion is counterproductive. Acting like a Christian or at least acting like a non-terrorist is easy. Especially when motivated, and your mission or success of your beliefs are dependent upon it.
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          • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 5 months ago
            Very well put. (Morocco was French and France was our first ally.)
            However, modern Islam and the consequent jihad being waged in the world today has evolved out of the Muslim Brotherhood which was organized in the 1920's.
            They have brought a return of the primitive to the Middle East...and the FF would definitely have resisted any return to the primitive.
            The FF would never invite any potential enemy to establish a foothold that would lead to the demise of our country.

            The question now is: Will our integrity be used against us to take our nation down because we won't say "no" to a potential threat because the First Ammendment guarantees that we obey our own rules instead of thinking this through?
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
              Haven't been obeying the rules as a nation anyway so that's not impediment. What integrity? So how can all of that be used against us? In the end the folks in DC will just sell us out anyway. Business as usual.
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            • Posted by TheRealBill 8 years, 5 months ago
              Yes, France was our first ally, but they did not formally and publicly recognize us as a sovereign nation first. They supported us to spite the British and drain the British war machine.

              I agree that the FF would oppose the extremists in Islam today. However, I see nothing tenable to suggest they would prevent any and all Muslims from coming in to do so. Indeed looking at how they didn't exclude the British after the war, a proven existential threat to the newborn nation, I'd say the evidence weighs against such a notion.
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            • Posted by Maritimus 8 years, 5 months ago
              Hello, t-a,
              I think that your statement hinges on who are "potential enemies". In evaluating prospective immigrants, it is critical to find an optimized way of identifying the potential enemies, before they are allowed the residency. Can it be done? I would think yes. It is costly, though.
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              • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 5 months ago
                Perhaps it would be less costly to keep them in their own homeland?
                It is important to realize that we need to protect what we have and after all these years of endless wars of attrition in the Middle East it should be clear to anyone who has been there that this "crisis" and our answer to it isn't viable for this country.
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
                  That is always and option besides keeping them in the always open to attack refugee camps. What countries are open to accepting if some cost were covered such as transportation and so forth OR is that fryingi pan into the fire?

                  I'm assuming there would be no problem with the three non muslim groups or at least two of them not sure about Christians but contacting the Bahai Church would take care of that question here in the USA.
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          • Posted by Maritimus 8 years, 5 months ago
            Hello, TheRealBill,
            I think that it is important to point out that speech, which can be understood as an action, was explicitly protected by the FF. I think the importance if this is particularly evident in current atmosphere in our country.
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          • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 5 months ago
            Thank you for an excellent and thoughtful post, RealBill. I agree with what you have said (though I hope that you meant "piracy" instead of "privacy"...?). I am definitely amongst those who do not equate the Muslim religion with Evil. That does not excuse the Muslim terrorists who use their current interpretation of that religion as a scaffolding for repression, ignorance and destruction.

            Jan
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            • Posted by TheRealBill 8 years, 5 months ago
              Yeah, silly autocorrect. :/

              Whilst I oppose religious rule of any stripe, and the non-extremists need to do a better job at conmbating their extremists factions' ideologies, tarring the many with the the actions of the few is in my view a form of collectivism.
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        • Posted by JohnConnor352 8 years, 5 months ago
          Regardless of which particular mysticism the founders had in mind when writing about religious freedom, the point is that they all agreed that an individual had the inalienable right to choose their religion (or lack there of) without ANY sort of preference, prevention, or punishment from government. That is called a principle. What you are espousing is simply forcing one's own narrow views and preferences on there through the strong arm of government.
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          • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 5 months ago
            What I am saying is: It is because of the nature of their particular "religious" views that now there is a reason to re-think the thoughts behind the first amendment.
            If "religious freedom" has morphed into: "The freedom to use your religious beliefs to end the lives of others" we are in trouble in this nation.
            Self-protection is vital when considering the entry of these particular refugees.
            As my husband says: "President Obama, please house them in the White House if you think that this is a good idea."
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        • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 5 months ago
          I think you have a good point!

          IMHO, Islam is not a religion, it's a governing body. The Koran being it's Constitution or it's complete set of rules and regulations for the life of the people that participate willingly or unwillingly. Therefore I believe our founders could not have accepted it because it does not allow for the freedom of or from religion.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
            "Good question how do you accept people who refuse to live according to the morals, values, principals of the country."

            "How do you exclude them when we ourselves refused to live up to the morals, values, and principals of our country."

            "But the Constitu....."

            "Was replaced by an overwhelming popular vote with the Patriot Act."

            "But our founders?"

            "We are not our founders. We are the one's who shat on their legacy. And voted King George back into office."

            "George Bush?"

            "Amongst others. George Soros and George Lakoff fo rtwo others."

            "But surely you don't mean...."

            "Don't I? Same Sex Marriage ring a bell. Fine where it was voted in locally but then it became law of the land. How many states voted in favor of that amendment?"

            And since it was made natinal law by one Judge how many States demanded a vote to make any changes? Such as making it an amendment?"

            "None..."

            "That's right."

            "So whee are you going?"

            "Moving to FNA Free North America."

            "Got any room?"

            "Hop in."
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            • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 5 months ago
              Also good points!

              IMHO you are correct, well at least our leaders are not following the Constitution. It basically is not even considered by most. Many of us people still consider it the law of the land.

              Don't get me started on the Patriot Act. I was one of the few that questioned how, in America was that acceptable the day GW signed it into law. We learned quickly how bad it is.

              I wish for a FNA.

              For me, the more thought I put into Islam the more I believe it to be a government, not a religion. Or to take a tactic from the left, if you say it enough it becomes the truth. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
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          • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 5 months ago
            They would have considered Islam to be barbarism and hence not related to freedom...yes.

            The word "barbarians" refers to those who dwelt on the Barbary Coast.
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            • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 5 months ago
              Another good point.
              I understand the people who believe in Islam refer to it simply as "Islam" not the religion of Islam, so I would contend that the believers do not even consider it a Religion. It is entirely possible that the word Religion was added by non-believers as a way to describe it. But I am no expert in this and maybe someone this site could shed some light on my theory. I may have to post the subject. :)
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              • Posted by TheRealBill 8 years, 5 months ago
                Under that argument Christianity is not a religion as it isn't referred to by Christians as the "Church of Christianity".

                It is a system of belief in a deity and has rules on behavior, a belief in the afterlife, and a coming day of judgment. That is a religion. It is organized, has a holy city, and scriptures and prayers. It is an organized religion.

                I know, we as a society like to think religion is about being good, but not all are. It is the cognitive dissonance of being confronted with a religion that is so different from the modern versions of Christianity and Judaism which leads us to not want to consider it a religion. But the adjustment is in understanding not all religions are minor variations of the same. That is the proper path to removing the dissonance, not redefining words.

                If modern Christians were transported to the Middle Ages and the Catholic Church of that era they'd be mortified at what it was. After all ...
                The Inquisition, what a show!
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                • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 5 months ago
                  More good points.

                  The more I consider the Catholic religion, the more I believe it to be a government as well, since they have their own city that is basically governed from within. Also until recently, the same rules applied inside the religion in other countries too. But at least the current Christian Religions are not advocates of death, although some of their beliefs may not be in the individuals best interest. But that is just my opinion.

                  There is one passage in Islam's bible (Koran), governing rules or whatever term we use for it, that concerns me the most. That is the passage that suggest that believers in Islam blend with society until they are in a position of power and at that point they are to kill all infidels. This is not a quote of the passage as I do not have that at my fingertips but it was taught to me during a class put on by an Egyptian Christian that translated the Koran. Was he telling the truth? I could never say for sure because I cannot translate an original Koran but believe what he shared has to be considered. But in no way do I consider myself an expert on this subject. As I have stated in another comment, I think we need to take a page from the progressives book and start calling it a government instead of a religion. If you say it enough it will be come truth and then it can be dealt with. (said somewhat tongue in cheek)

                  But truthfully I do not know what to believe on the subject and in reality, I simply want to know the truth about Islam and the Koran. I want to know if I can turn my back on a believer of Islam and currently I cannot do that. This is why these discussions are so good.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 5 months ago
    I don't think Rand Paul's position on that Syrian problem would create any problem with Objectivism. In fact, recall that membership in the Gulch was by invitation only. Now his position does put him at odds with most libertarians. They tend not to think in terms of a combatant not wearing a uniform.
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    • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 5 months ago
      Well, libertarians, in general, are for open borders. However, they also believe in no gov't hand outs.
      That would mean, the only reason to come to this country would be for a job...or to kill us.
      Since killing us would be stepping on our individual liberties, a Libertarian would be against that.
      The next question is, does a libertarian believe in profiling?
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      • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 5 months ago
        A libertarian would reject profiling on the ground that no profile can be perfect. (He might want to talk to the IDF or to the security staff of El Al about that one.) And the problem I see too many libertarians having, is simply not being able to conceive of anyone waking up in the morning, on lands beyond the ocean, saying, "I want to kill somebody in that fat, rich land." They then accuse the government of said "fat, rich land" of laying on a pseudo-operation.
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        • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 5 months ago
          I disagree with that whole heartedly.
          That sounds more like a liberal, not a libertarian.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
            Profiling if used properly has very strong points. Example.
            "911"
            "Someone just robbed my store at gunpoint."
            "Any distinguishing features?"

            "He was a redhaired white dude with a Malmo accent. Spoke English with a Swedish Accent.

            OR

            None that I'm allowed to give.

            OR

            Liberal and a Defense Attorney if I profiled the offending remark on the grounds of looking for a way to get the charges quashed or a mistrial declared.
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          • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 5 months ago
            Representative Ron Paul (R-Texas-14th) took exactly that position and attitude. Enemy identification was his Achilles heel, and always was. And several who call themselves libertarians do routinely accuse the United States government of laying on pseudo-ops "to whip up war fever." Haven't you heard? Haven't you seen? Does the phrase "Nine-eleven Truther" mean anything to you?
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            • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 5 months ago
              Pseudo-ops is very different than being able to identify a threat. I think you're mixing two different things.
              Rounding up Japanese during ww2 is very different than not allowing unvetted refugees from the Middle East in,especially after what happen in France.
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
                Scared is scared. Of the same thing. The oceans are not enough to protect us so let's round file the bill of rights and become a fascist police state. they win we lose.
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    • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 5 months ago
      The Gulch was privately owned land, not a country. Big difference. I do agree with Rand on this one, though.
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      • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 5 months ago
        Not so different as you might imagine. They declared themselves sovereign. Midas Mulligan claimed allodial title over his land. He, Francisco, and Ragnar were the primary stakeholders in a functioning Committee of Safety. (John Galt was Midas' proxy.)
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        • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 5 months ago
          But wasn't it still privately owned property with some rules of conduct for people to be invited on the property? Kind of like when you invite people into your home?
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          • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 5 months ago
            There are two ways of looking at it. The first is that Midas Mulligan took the place of a Medieval Lord and that everyone in the valley were his vassals subject to the rules he determined -- it was private property after all.

            Or, alternatively, that Midas Mulligan set up the rules for the operation of what was essentially a country given that he had, by virtue of owning the property, the right to direct it's use. That once this was done the inhabitants could, subject to his 'constitution' determine their own rules.

            If the former, it's not a very attractive place, and the latter a country.
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          • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 5 months ago
            Yes, it was. This code of conduct took the place of the sort of law that legislatures write. It was, of course, absurdly simple. Don't forget, though: that society did have a judge.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 5 months ago
    I do not have a problem with Paul's bill.
    I do not have a problem with my state's stand against O'Shaftus's next immigration invasion plan either.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
      +1 for O'Shaftus!
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 5 months ago
        Muchas gracious, senor. Ahora dame mas cosas gratis. Oye, por que usted no entiende las palabras que salen de mi boca? No, no necesito de Ingles apestosol.

        The following translation is brought to you by Google Translate. Any errors are on them. Not me. Not ever. No, I don't need no stinking blame!

        Much thanks, mister. Now give me more free stuff. Hey, why do you not understand the words that come out of my mouth? No, I don't need no stinking English!
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  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 5 months ago
    If any single issue, or several issues, will deter you from selecting a candidate, then I do not think anyone, at any time, will ever satisfy you. To me, when considering a candidate, one must consider the overall view. And Bernie Sanders ain't it, Neither is any establishment candidate. Which leaves us with Rand Paul. And, to keep on topic, given not only the security issues but the disease issue Germany is reporting (well hidden from US readers) of serious illnesses such as TB and worse, there is a lot of merit in what Rand says.
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  • Posted by IamTheBeav 8 years, 5 months ago
    I can't speak for most Gulchers, but Rand Paul's positions on this and most other topics are highly in line with my own. There are few things I find myself at odds with Rand Paul about. He's far and away my #2 pick for the GOP nomination trailing only Ted Cruz.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
      And those positions are? The way it looks it would take a stick of dynamite to pry that information loose.

      As for your two favorites. Both Reublican both support the Rino Majority by being Republican both supporters therefore of left wing socialist fascism. The rest is just excuses.
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  • Posted by jimslag 8 years, 5 months ago
    Now if I remember correctly, even the Gulch was selective in who they let in. It was not just come as you are, willy, nilly. You had to be invited and there had to be a concensus among the current members. It has been a few years since I read AS and I have been through various iterations in my life but it seems as if he actually wants to set limits and provide for proper vetting of individuals. I find that agreeable and well within the rights of the current citizens of the US. Let me know if I am off base but this is the way I am seeing it.
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    • Posted by JohnConnor352 8 years, 5 months ago
      It is completely different to restrict access to private property or to a private club than it is to restrict access to a country.
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      • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 5 months ago
        Not completely different, if all (or nearly all) property in the country is private, as would be the case in an Objectivist country.
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        • Posted by JohnConnor352 8 years, 5 months ago
          Very true. Which would mean in that sort of country one land owner would not be able to restrict another land owner from inviting anyone they choose to their property for any reason (excluding criminal criteria).
          There is no collective "right" of the cultural, religious, or racial majority to restrict those who are different from them from seeking employment from their neighbors who do not have the same hang ups.
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        • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 5 months ago
          A great majority of land in the US is owned by the gov't.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
            About 30% roughly. That does not count State, and local government land. If sold it would pay off the national debt and it now represents the only backing we have for our currency. Arizona has he least privately owned land and Rhode Island as a percentage. the most with the least federally owned land. the USA has no idea how much they directly own and control however in their view they own all of it. The last attempt to balance those books is still ongoing with up to three agencies listing the same properties.
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            • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 5 months ago
              The federal government owns about 635 million acres of land, more than half of which is in Alaska, Arizona and Nevada. To pay off the national debt, this land would have to fetch on average about $29,000 per acre.
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
                I hadn't done the computation for a while and didn't think about the 19 trillion debt instead of the pre Obama debt but I did add in water, timber, mineral and grazing rights and I had subtracted that listed as reservations, military spaces and a percentage for roads and so forth.

                Well it's still all the collateral they have. As a thought how much is ANWAR worth with it's oil deposits? The nation really is bankrupt. There is no full faith and credit which didn't mean anything anyway. Most of it will be scrub land. and I doubt Washington DC is worth that much.

                I make it $29,921 and twenty six cents. That's a lot of inflation However if the land was sold privately it would bring in some property tax. Not much to say for 240 years of investing.

                Last I did the figures it was $10,000 an acre with full property rights - even sovereignty rights wouldn't work.

                No gold, no land, no collateral, no faith, no credit. pretty dismal picture with nothing but inflation, devaluation and debt repudiation to count on. That's not counting all the squandered tax money we involuntarily loaned the government.

                Might be a way to start up a new country though. CHina would get Guam, Hawaii, and Alaska.perhaps.

                Big problem with western lands is California. LA for example. Who could afford the water bill?.

                So how do you engineer land value to average $30,000 an acre? Or would the debt holder except 33 cents on the dollar which brings it down to $10,000 an acre?

                Fictional analysis. But I'm suddenly reminded of France when they did the old Francs new francs devaluation. One New Franc was worth ten old Francs in printed and minted money. The prices remained the same but the salaries were paid in new francs....

                How about the new SW Texas oil reserves or the offshore stuff?

                Hate to say it but the only way the US could afford a house is mandatory loans to unqualified borrowers.I guess we would need Frank and Dodd back to explain how they rigged that one.
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  • Posted by JohnConnor352 8 years, 5 months ago
    Overall I believe we should allow in anyone with a relatively clean criminal record (not including prior immigration-related offenses) who can find someone to hire them.
    Citizenship is a different question entirety, though.
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  • Posted by dark_star 8 years, 5 months ago
    I lost all respect for Rand Paul when he endorsed Mitch McConnell for re-election in 2014.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
      Besides he's a Republican and therefore supports the RINO majority who in turn support the Democrats and the DINO majority who in turn are nothing more than garden variety fascist socialists.National Socialists more than International Socialists although pretensions in that direction.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 5 months ago
    Excuse me, but wasn't the Gulch by invitation only? Gulchers practiced the most restrictive form of "immigration" possible: nobody gets in that we don't want, and you have to show you're worth keeping, or you're out. If anything, Paul's stand is quite liberal by comparison.
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    • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 5 months ago
      Comparison between private property and a country just does not jive.
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      • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 5 months ago
        What if virtually all property in the country is private (as would be the case in a country operating on Objectivist principles)?
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        • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 5 months ago
          That's a good idea and worth trying to achieve. The space habitats in Schulman's The Rainbow Cadenza are a somewhat more thought-out version of it.

          I'm thinking, though, that any such proposed new state should be pretty small (as the Gulch was and as most primitive tribes were). This is primarily because most versions of libertarianism would rely heavily, if not entirely, on the mechanism of reputation in order to stop fraud and some kinds of theft -- and reputation stops working once you live in a society large enough that you can effectively disappear, at will, without losing your possessions or your lifestyle to do it. I'm thinking any "Gulch" should be limited to around 150 families. If it gets bigger it should split itself.

          This would imply some sort of federation in order to produce a state large enough to be capable of defending itself in the modern world.
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          • Posted by TheRealBill 8 years, 5 months ago
            Domes on Mars. Just throwin' that out there. ;)
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            • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 5 months ago
              Mars should probably be settled, eventually. Its major problems are (1) next to no atmosphere (about 0.5% of Earth sea level pressure, and that mostly CO2 and junk) and (2) extreme cold (a warm noon at the Equator is about -60 C). Terraforming is being studied but would take at least decades and more likely centuries.

              I don't see it as worthwhile for anybody now living, but I might donate to an effort to start the terraforming process.
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 5 months ago
                In Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy they terraform it in a few hundred years, but Robinson admits it would take thousands of years. Who knows what's possible with future technologies though. And when we can terraform Mars, we'll probably have the technology to colonize the oceans, antarctica, and low earth orbit.
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
                  To what purpose? Paid for how? We can't pay the bills we have today and that shows zero signs of being solved by future technology.
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                  • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 5 months ago
                    I don't think anyone was thinking of the gov't paying for it. It would have to be done privately.
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                    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
                      Out of what they leave....I agree. Privately and out of sight out of mind before it was shut down, the technology stolen, and fined out of existence- because some might be offended (moochers) and some others are just garden variety looters.
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