Makes sense now. Thanks for clarifying. :)

I meant Democrats seem to give more latitude to Muslims and Republicans more latitude to Christians.

Hey Rich, I better want to understand where you are coming from in saying that the Republicans will convert everyone to Christianity.

Personally, I don't see most of them that way, at least the one's that I would consider supporting. Many hold Christian beliefs but I believe they strongly support an individuals right to choose a religion or none at all. What am I missing?

Ed

With the current administration we could set it up as a separate Islamic State. We would claim religious freedom and be left alone til a Republican was elected. We then would have to convert to Christianity.

Good point. I have thought if it were set up as Amish like community it might work.

Yes the children. How often do politicos hide behind them. Even Kasich said we can't deport illegals because of the children.

Excellent analysis as always OA. I like the idea of a shadow economy like happened under prohibition but the Feds have eyes and ears everywhere. There literally is nowhere to hide. Having a group of States break away together or somehow retaking our government may ultimately be the only way.

Another Civil War perhaps. May be the only way.

Im starting to think that instead of a Galt like shield for invisibility we would need more sophisticated weapons. Hard to believe the US has deteriorated so bad.

A start perhaps...

I've had an interest in the State of Jefferson movement. I occasionally do business in that region and I love it up there. It really is one of the most beautiful places on earth. The people are laid-back. Lots of natural resources. It's a nice place. People still have "Welcome to the State of Jefferson" painted on their barns.

The hardest part of that scenario is how to check out the applicants for residency. Worse yet, how to refuse them. If it is part of the USA you're screwed. Declaring independence will be a gun in your ear. The idea of creating a shining example of what freedom can do can only be done somewhere where the land is completely owned by the new state and is truly sovereign. The idea of visibility is good, but in this world, in its current state, it is also a low hanging fruit ripe for plucking. So, one must add to that a reason that would keep the Huns from the gates. An unstoppable weapon, or territory so difficult it's too costly to raid, or whatever other deterrent you can imagine. It may be a very long road before humanity is mature enough to become rational.

you talk about being attacked -- better have a very good
defense system! . eeeeevvvvvvverrrryyyone wants something
for nothing, and we'd have something they'd want!!!

in my humble, the only hope is the secession of a
huge group of States who would -- in effect -- hold
the rest for ransom with their goods and services withdrawn,
just like Rand envisioned, except geographical. . you might
want to consider my most recent edit:::

http://www.amazon.com/Unsustainable-T...

the "flyover" States secede from the union and get changes to
their successor U.S.A. constitution accepted by the rest
of the States. . far-fetched? . you decide, OK? -- j
.

Hello xthinke88,
I like it. :) The short story "Lone Star Planet"- H. Beam Piper and John J. McGuire, is also an interesting read about a space colony set up based on old school Texas justice and society. The Republic of Texas didn't know how good they had it.
Regards,
O.A.

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - by Robert Heinlein

Reinvents the American Revolution on the Moon. Full of liberty ideas and basically RAH's idea of a libertarian society.

Proximity to Massataxes/Taxachusetts and the influx of Massholes killed that idea.
Since Jeanne Shaheen, NH has gone decidedly left.
Point of interest: There is no such thing as not living in a town or city as far as taxes are concerned. When you register your car you write 2 checks, one to the town and one to the state. Each year, each town has its budget meeting to prioritize spending for the following year. Some towns, to emphasize education, for example, leave their streets unpaved. But the schools have been taken over by the left. For my daughter's 10th birthday in Hampton, I brought a pizza to school so she could have a little lunch party with her friends and me. I was immediately stopped by the principal who said that would be unfair to all the poor kids who didn't have nice parents. So we ate alone in a private room.

Hello richrobinson,
The more I read of other peoples' thoughts, the more I think the statists would do whatever it takes to kill off the idea. I am thinking that if it were visible it would have to be run like an underground or black market economy. A facade of phony storefronts and the like would have to be maintained as well as two sets of books. Everyone's Gulch business would have to be run out of the back room like a speakeasy, with a storefront only for show and outsiders. Out in the open would mean that a certain amount of compliance and interaction with the general public and its officials would have to be maintained in order to avoid scrutiny. Trading among Gulchers would require secrecy, special codes and currency. The problem is that too often "Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead." - Benjamin Franklin. The Gangsters managed during prohibition to some degree because of fear of death/retribution. Non- initiation of force kind of puts a monkey wrench in the scenario. Ultimately the Feds even got Capone, though they had to nail him on tax evasion. The same could easily be envisioned for defiant Gulch members.

If there was a massive movement of citizens willing to defy the government, I suppose they could use Cloward and Piven strategies to overwhelm the government system and initiate a collapse. They can't arrest and incarcerate too many of us, unless those detainment centers we keep hearing about are designed for such an insurrection. However, there are now so many citizens on the dole and willing to be dominated as long as the handouts keep coming that this scenario seems unlikely. There no longer seems to be enough citizens with the philosophy of independence to be swayed by truths like those set out in Paine's Common Sense. Propaganda perfected, is now the preeminent tool of the statists and the individualist is at a disadvantage. Envy, egalitarianism, altruism and statism is winning. Hence our present state of affairs.

If the Gulch could exist in the open, it would have to come about by legitimate means, like overwhelming a sovereign nation with enough new inhabitants to vote in their preferred governance. Many believe this is the endgame of open borders. Of course, in our case the political system the migrants bring is not considered superior and yet the affects are already being felt.

Of course we could all read AJAshinoff's book (Shadows Live Under Seashells) and consider life on Mars... I doubt such a settlement is within reach during my lifetime, but that is a scenario where it could be carried out in plain sight. Perhaps the Moon... It is a dream. :)

Respectfully,
O.A.

Amazing but you are right about the IRS. One of the reasons they are so feared.

A visible Galt's Gulch would be like Bambi in the classic film, Bambi Meets Godzilla. https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p...

maybe new hampshire

I read it, but I have a feeling that the north did something to provoke that. All the south wanted was to exit the union, which I think they should have been allowed to do. Just like a state should be able to exit the union NOW. But they would be attacked by Obama just like the south was.

Well, I had the general area right if not the general attitude.

If you check the facts (the history of what happened) I think you'll discover that the South attacked the North to start the Civil War.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hi...

It would be interesting to know what the South had that the North wanted. It obviously wasn't the slaves, which the South (in general) wanted to keep.

Lincoln was opposed to slavery, but the main reason he went to war was to preserve the Union.

I would expect that various government agencies, beginning with IRS, would trump up charges to justify seizing the strikers' homes and other assets, culminating in another Waco siege.

Thus any open "Gulch" would need to be on non-US territory. And preferably sovereign (which likely means either taking over some small poor country or arranging a lease similar to Hong Kong's former arrangement).

jbrenner among others has postulated a potential location for a Gulch, but so far it's like trying to locate the fabled Atlantis.

The thing is, the United States itself used to be that very panacea. It had the correct underpinnings focused on freedom and liberty. It's just that over time, prosperity actually devalued the sacrifices of the Founding Fathers. It took the War of 1812 and then the Civil War to remind people of those values. Since then, however, America has only fought foreign wars. These insulate the general population from any true fight for freedom, enabling collectivist and populist cultures to creep in and establish a welfare state.