A Christian endorsement of Ayn Rand?

Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 3 months ago to Philosophy
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The author is a lawyer and legal professor who maintains his own blog on legal issues. I find his reasoning to be pretty solid in most cases and was gratified to find that while theologically he didn't see eye to eye with Ayn Rand, he could and did appreciate her economic philosophies and endorsed Rand's books as insights into economic matters.


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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    He, who shall not be named or censured member-Hiraghm-gasp! no wait I'm still here...was the one who made that comment. therefore-censure. He has been warned before. There is a history...he loves it...I am RESPONDING to your bringing it up.
    please, flag me. sigh. it won't be the first time I've been hauled into the principal's office.
    Here's the difference, if you'd calm down. I am speaking about the culture of abuse. You may make the argument about schools and I'll agree. the reason you are hearing about those cases is that they are reported and acted upon. The culture in the Catholic church has been to hide and deflect-to shame those who were abused. Again, I point to control-hence my post on the refugee camps and Muslim abusers of young girls in "grooming." Shame is an important part of this. No shame in Objectivism.
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  • Posted by Stormi 12 years, 3 months ago
    First, I think Rand very well understood capitalism and why she thought as she did.She had lived through repression and lack of both reason and freedom in her life before these novels.
    I do think that a mention that Rand was not into religion was valid, but did not need repeated emphasis, which did not further the article.
    I found his recommendations of the three novels and their value, despite lack of religious content, to be very valuable. I did find the song reference, although interesting, to be a bit off subject - actually leaving me wondering which was the main topic of the article.
    Nonetheless, I found the article interesting and with merit.
    As to all the snarkie behavior today, that's freedom, I guess. I grew up in dogmatic Catholic school with a non-Catholic dad who turned the air blue during normal conversation. One of the best, most reasoned men I ever knew. He had about the same reaction as below the first time he heard me use one unladylike expression, which I still seldom do, except during Obama speeches. It shows we are all individuals,that's all.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I, and I believe others on this board, don't have issue with cussing per se, hell, I've even conveyed that sentiment. It is the intentional use of provocative language that is objectionable.

    You are smart enough to know the culture within which you live. Whether you believe or agree or not is not important, you know that others do. Just as when I lived in Mexico I wouldn't intentionally say or do anything that would embarrass or offend the Mexican people, nor should you or any other member on this site INTENTIONALLY seek to offend other members. That has occurred lately - and not merely by the censured member.

    Now, to the assertion that somebody rationalized the rape of children - 1) if that is true, it certainly wasn't me, so why the hell are you using it in any argument to me? 2) How the hell does that have any relevance to rudeness in postings? 3) What the hell do you think I have to do with any priest or bishop committing or covering up such activity? Looking to lay that at the feet of me or any other Catholic is a specious argument at best, and highly offensive.

    This is the first posting of yours that has riled me to a point that I would use the now available "Flag" capability. How dare you? You want to say that you use reason and act rationally, but then try to lay that kind of bullshit on me? I'm just as infuriated as anyone about what occurred. The Catholic church has no more a problem in that regard than society as a whole. Go look at the perverts in your school systems. Hell, it seems that there's a new teacher being convicted every week for molesting a child. And how many step-parents have been accused/convicted of molesting children? I still don't condemn all of those people because of some subset that have committed evil.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Which part of the Bill of Rights are you referring?? My definitions are clear I spend alot of time in here trying to get people to nail down definitions.
    I apologize, I can't go any farther on this discussion, I do not think we are communicating well with one another. See you on another post.
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  • Posted by rlewellen 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So if you call it a rose is it really a car? Oh I can't listen to this any longer.I have so disproved all of your objections, you never even once acknowldege when your philosophy is trying to eliminate the bill of rights when called on it. .
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    point. I disagree. I like to cuss. I do so all the time in here. I am not chilling discussion by doing so occasionally. I cannot worry about some minor rule infraction I am making in a system I do not participate in.
    The example of an Objectivist rationalizing rape of children is completely specious and unfounded. The "colorful" language was meant to chill an manipulate those contributing to the discussion into silence.
    Note-this is different than posting about a pervasive, factual situation of child rape, for example, pervasive in the Catholic Church. The culture of priest/child relationship, the covering up by those in authority, is a pervasive problem the church has to deal with. Note that I am not comparing that real and testable problem with Christianity as a whole, but you cannot deny the Catholic Church has a real and unique and evil problem on their hands which is widespread.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    well you'd have to define what you mean by globalism. It's not a phrase I would ever use. The right of property ONLY is also never something I would say. I would say values and protects natural rights and through a limited system of justice protect property rights. Because we are no longer in the Malthusian trap-thanks in no small part to the influence of capitalism world wide. However in third world nations there is a different reality than in the US. Are you advocating that we take away choices from people who are starving? Can and does Christianity effectively end the starvation in the world? Topple evil governments? In most of these situations families are making a choice. Life is hard in the malthusian trap. US companies with presence in third world countries overall offer one more choice. Do some of these companies take advantage? Are there bad people in the world? Yes.
    What are the most effective systems to pull people into prosperity and pursue virtuous endeavors?
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  • Posted by Herb7734 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Excellent. Totally agree. Hopefully this won't devolve into a religion vs whatever conversation.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Here's the summary of "The Road to Serfdom":
    The creeping tyranny of government, in support of "the people," ultimately leads to the people becoming the serfs of the political elite.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    When taken in aggregate, I don't disagree. The other thought, of course, is that what once was a clear and precise doctrine has become muddled and corrupted because men took it upon themselves to change the original meaning for their own purposes. This was the charge laid out in the Protestant Reformation and oddly enough was predicted by the Apostle Paul.

    One could look at the matter from an Objectivist standpoint, however, as an opportunity for the Market of Ideas to do its work. Those dogmas which espouse unreasonable or paradoxical tenets can be discarded leaving only those with clear and precise tenets standing. I fully support the search for a single life philosophy and believe that the quintessential philosophy should be all-encompassing, logical, and present no inherent contradictions.
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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The Humane Society use the tactics of moochers because they appeal to emotion, not reason. That's only my opinion. Anyone can mooch as much as they want and Caveat Emptor to prospective buyers. My disgust is the blatant appeal to emotion as a tool of cognizance. But, again, no force initiated, no foul. Free minds, free markets even if the sale is to a "feeling." I'm not sure AR would support that but she would not proscribe it if that is what an individual's choice was. A fool and his money are soon parted. Okay by me!
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You started this with the statement that the Humane Society was a bunch of moochers due to their mechanism for soliciting funds.

    I don't endorse that manner, but that in and of itself doesn't make them moochers. Now, if they went and pleaded for tax dollars, that would be different (most of them, at least in our area, do not receive tax funds, they are privately funded).
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  • Posted by rlewellen 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks Robbie. I think my days are numbered here. I don't do well under communism. Yours days might be numbered too. Take care, I will be one of the people looking out for you.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Can you post a link? I tried to read "The Road to Serfdom" and it got really deep really fast. On the other hand, I've read the majority of Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations" and found it very logically laid out and highly rational.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Agreed. I do not defend his statement of such. He took an initially emotional stand and then sought to uphold it using reason, but by then he had already mostly betrayed his initial differences. I would note, however, that Ayn Rand is no less emotional in her condemnation of theists, so I would call the whole matter even in that regard.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Absolutely no disagreements here, and this is the primary reason there are so many Christian churches!

    Kind of makes one wonder why, though, if a dogma is supposed to be clear and precise how it could devolve into the hundreds of individual denominations now in existence...
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If we stuck to logical arguments, there would be no reason to use names - vain or otherwise ;)
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Excellent points and I will attempt to answer them. First, the Old Testament. With regard for David, one has to start first with the baseline of Saul and his downfall. Again, the people of Israel were warned about having kings, of which Saul was first. His progeny were designated initially to be the next in the line of kings, but because of Saul's disobedience, the kingdom was rent from him (his sons were killed) and bestowed on someone who's heart was more in line - David. David then also disobeyed in a grievous manner (is there a pattern here?). His firstborn son, Absalom, initiated a civil war to try to usurp the kingdom and was slain. Then the kingdom was given to a man of wisdom - Solomon. Then you had Rehoboam and Jereboam (sons of Solomon) who ended up dividing the nation because of their squabbles and everything disintegrated from there.

    Now let's move to the New Testament. Peter, one of Christ's Apostles had been approached by a tax collector. The Romans ruled far and wide and the Roman Emperor had called for a tax - usually a coin from each male. Those who couldn't pay the tax were usually flogged or pressed into service on Roman slave galleys. Christ asks Peter if doing so divides their allegiance. He reasons with Peter that paying one's respects for the laws of the land by paying taxes does not interfere with the worship of God. As such, it would be prudent to pay the tax and then instructs Peter how to miraculously obtain the tax money. The exact quote is "Render unto Caesar the things of Caesar and unto God the things of God."

    I'm not familiar with either Hayek or Von Mises' statements in detail, so I'll defer to a more studied commentator.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This, from someone who expects civil discourse and when hit with mud is not above flinging it right back.
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