Outrageous Textbook Bias

Posted by awebb 12 years, 2 months ago to News
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I've already had that discussion with db. Patent attorneys (in my humble experience and opinion) make the claim intentionally convoluted and obscure. This is done to intentionally hide knowledge, yet provide a means to sue another party later.
    As an engineering manager, I had to read patents to ensure that we weren't going down paths that were going to get us into trouble. While not a patent attorney, I have some experience from an actual IP perspective on these things.
    So, with all due respect, I have to disagree on the ease of searchability.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Why do you think that Objectivism has the proper insight for economic theory? I'm not sure that I'd make that argument for other sciences - medicine, physics, astronomy, etc. Why should it be a necessary foundation for economics?
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Hello khalling,
    The article is very interesting. I think it is fair to argue that Rand and Hayek may have differing epistemology. That being said: I believe they came very close to the same policy preferences. For that, I still value Hayek. My understanding, was not so much that Hayek believed man could not know, but that any one man could not know everything happening in the market... not limited power to know reality, but to be knowledgeable of all factors. I may have to investigate further some of the references provided. Either way Hayek's economic vision would be a boom and a stark contrast compared to what we have now.
    Regards,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes which is my point. Trespass is not adequately covered by contract - you need another mechanism. It's theft only if I can prove the orchard is mine.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    it's not that difficult to perform a search. Most people don't bother before jumping in. Often there are ways to develop your idea to be different from what's out there. It isn't efficient for inventors to simultaneously inventing due to not knowing what's going on in their space. Technology moves forward faster by knowing what's already out there in your area. First to file encourages theft and changes the meaning of the concept of inventor.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    negative contracts are non-sensical. You'll have to do better than that.

    But to get back to the original theme - by and large the Austrian School does in fact support private property rights. As with many things, there are of course exceptions/nuances.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    it's not that difficult to perform a search. Most people don't bother before jumping in. Often there are ways to develop your idea to be different from what's out there. It isn't efficient for inventors to simultaneously inventing due to not knowing what's going on in their space. Technology moves forward faster by knowing what's already out there in your area. First to file encourages theft and changes the meaning of the concept of inventor.
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  • Posted by barwick11 12 years, 2 months ago
    I think it's true, conservatives do take a pessimistic view of human nature. Why? Because it's BLATANTLY BORNE OUT IN THE FACTS OF HISTORY.

    I mean, we're not stupid. We can look and see that if we gave 100 people everything they ever needed in life, plus some luxuries for them and their kids, probably 50 of them wouldn't do any work at all, while 75 of them wouldn't do any USEFUL work.

    Heck, has anyone read the Bible? It's got the most true view on human nature I've ever seen. Selfish, lazy, greedy, jealous, envious, covetous, gluttons...
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If they were natural rights, then they must have existed and exist independent of a legal authority. This has not been the case historically.
    For example, I've worked for several companies in which I was required to sign away my IP rights as a condition of employment. If it were a natural right, then this would not be permissible.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It didn 't use to. It does now after the AIA passage. A hugely lobbied for by big budiness grab from the small inventor. Inventor has a specific meaning. Now the inventor is considered the first file. This was overwhelmingly passed by both houses. Prior art is used to argue against patentability.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Good info.

    The problem that I have with patent law in particular is the concept of "prior art." Regardless of whether an entity (person or company) develops an idea totally independently, if it were documented by someone else at an earlier time, then that earlier instance has primacy. That seems immoral to me. I understand protecting the investment that one makes in an innovation from being ripped off by another who then uses the idea to make profit without having incurred the original investment, but should that protection override the first instance of independent development?
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm not sure I agree. It is reasonable to search for economists who were as close to Objectivism as possible and explore similarities and differences. One of the biggest elephants in the room is the complete lack of discussing Locke by Rand or Hayek! It almost boggles the mind.
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  • Posted by iamA2u 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Right on. Or for it to be illegal for conscientious, hard working people to have jobs, e.g. "illegal" immigrants.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think you need to dig a few paragraphs deeper into the post to get to the real nugget of the issue -

    "Kinsella presents this view of intellectual property as a creation of the State; an artificial construct that would not exist in a free market system. I believe this is the main reason for libertarian opposition to the concept of intellectual property – because it is framed in the context of the State, and associated with all of the terrible things that the State and crony capitalist firms have done in the name of IP. From the evil censorship laws proposed in CISPA and SOPA to major corporations like Apple using IP laws to shut down competition through “patent trolling”, the State and it’s crony partners in crime have used intellectual property as a cover for all sorts of nasty, anti-liberty maneuvers."

    IP as codified by patent and copyright laws are in fact artificial creations of the state.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think that Kelley went into that paper with a specific objective to negate the views of Hayek.
    Hayek is often criticized for the statement that if there were a omniscient entity that knew all effects and future effects there would be no cause for liberty. This, of course, is impossible for humanity, so the very idea is merely a thought experiment. Since this is not the case, then the most efficient means for an economy is through full liberty.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Rothbard appears to have a contractual point of view of property rights. This does not work either because, what if do not have an agreement with you not to take your apples from your orchard?
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/ho...
    Real, tangible property rights result from natural scarcity. Note this is not consistent with Locke, who states the property rights derive from the fact that you own yourself so you own the product of your efforts. This is the basis of the US Declaration of Independence and Common Law.
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The following may enlighten you on where khalling is coming from: http://mises.org/daily/468

    For my own two cents, there is a difference between advocating for Private Property rights and advocating for the Patent System...but probably not in khalling's world view. Not going to enter into that debate - just seeking to provide some context to a prominent Austrian view of patents.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    And here's some info on Rothbard:

    Rothbard's Man, Economy, and State (1963) was patterned after Human Action, and in some areas--monopoly theory, utility and welfare, and the theory of the state--tightened and trengthened Mises's own views. Rothbard's approach to the Austrian School followed directly in the line of Late Scholastic thought by applying economic science within a framework of a natural-rights theory of property. What resulted was a full-fledged defense of a capitalistic and stateless social order, based on property and freedom of association and contract.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I guess that all depends on how you define freedom and to whom freedom is granted and in what degree.

    I could have stated it differently thus:
    Liberals want to be free to separate decisions from their consequences. Conservatives recognize that choices lead to consequences - that they are inseparate. The differences between Conservatives and Libertarians is on the nature of the consequences, which is why they tend to differ on social issues but concur on economic issues.

    Any of these ideologies can easily be recognized in their policy-making and results.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Here's something I found on the Mises.org site (see paragraph 3):

    The story of the Austrian School begins in the fifteenth century, when the followers of St. Thomas Aquinas, writing and teaching at the University of Salamanca in Spain, sought to explain the full range of human action and social organization.

    These Late Scholastics observed the existence of economic law, inexorable forces of cause and effect that operate very much as other natural laws. Over the course of several generations, they discovered and explained the laws of supply and demand, the cause of inflation, the operation of foreign exchange rates, and the subjective nature of economic value--all reasons Joseph Schumpeter celebrated them as the first real economists.

    The Late Scholastics were advocates of property rights and the freedom to contract and trade. They celebrated the contribution of business to society, while doggedly opposing taxes, price controls, and regulations that inhibited enterprise. As moral theologians, they urged governments to obey ethical strictures against theft and murder. And they lived up to Ludwig von Mises's rule: the first job of an economist is to tell governments what they cannot do.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Plenty of folks who are in the Libertarian party but aren't really libertarians. Many of them are anarchists. That might explain the thinking on property rights.
    I don't know where you got the info on Austrian school and intellectual property. I'm no expert, but that doesn't jibe with what I understand about the body of thought. Innovation is a key aspect of the Austrian School, and so I would find it hard to believe that they would advocate policies that would hinder innovation. Can you provide a source? I'd be interested in where that came from.
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