An Introduction to Objectivist Epistemo;ogy -- Discussion and Study Thread

Posted by mminnick 12 years, 1 month ago to Books
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Text is: Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, Expanded 2nd edition (Kindle)

Discussion Starts with Chap 1: Cognition and Measurement


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  • Posted by jrberts5 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    In part 1 of this posting the putting together of the definitions of "unit" and "existent" is done in reverse. The correct definition would be that a unit is "something that exists, be it a thing, an attribute action" "regarded as a separate member of a group of two or more similar members." Proceed from that definition and it negates every subsequent argument against Objectivist epistemology listed here. The combining of definitions incorrectly for the purpose of negating the meaning of one or more terms is a linguistic analysis method. Also, in the first paragraph regarding mass in (2) of Part 1 is the old argument that man's mind is invalid as a tool for understanding reality precisely because it is that. The uniqueness here is that the attack on consciousness here is done on the most basic level--attacking the concept of the "unit." And this isn't done here without a very high level of understanding of what is being discussed. Objectivism is philosophy dedicated to the preservation of man's life and the achievement of his happiness. Objectivism is good. This post is an intelligent, maliciously evil assault upon Objectivism at its very core.
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  • Posted by $ minniepuck 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    oh, herb, everyone knows that angels don't dance. they just don't have the flexibility. although, there is a new yoga class that is quickly changing the world of angel-on-pin dancing. I hope that one day, very soon, we will indeed be able to see nine angels dance on a pin. until that day when you're proven right, we'll just agree to disagree. I'm okay with that.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    OK. debate all you want as an intellectual discussion. But, be careful you don't devolve into a reductio ad absurdum. The answer to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin is nine. Now, move on.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    The reason Touhy was able to bring down the Banner was not Touhy's strength but the Banner's weakness. This, to me, is almost identical as to why MSNBC's ratings are so low and Fox's are so high. People recognize the truth when they hear it even if they are not grounded in solid philosophical premises. Those who are, must lead by example. Some know more basic principles than others and are able to articulate them. Others, while not able to articulate them as well, but act in a way that illustrates the good from the bad, can also become great leaders.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    correct. However, one can have different intensities of blue, which can be measured on a continuous scale.
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  • Posted by 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Disagree. The "ivory tower" discussion is sometimes needed in order to move to the application of the philosophy.
    If you recall from The Fountainhead, Ellsworth Toey was a man of Ideas and he brought down athe Daily Banner.
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  • Posted by $ minniepuck 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    you have a very valid point, and i agree with you to some extent. i'll just say that sometimes the debate/discussion must still be had in order to understand the usefulness (or lack thereof) of this exercise. i would rather have read chapter one of this book, learn what other people think, and walk way with my own idea of its usefulness rather than just accept the thought "it's not of much use" and not explore it at all.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 12 years, 1 month ago
    I understand all the above comments, having been through Objectivist classes on epistemology and the questioning thereof. However, this debate is as useful as questioning how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. This esoteric questioning of Rand's definitions is OK in order to satisfy the ivory tower critics of Rand's philosophy, but otherwise it is as useful as a crossword puzzle, unless you're trying to improve your vocabulary. It is the application of her philosophy to every day life which will, free the incarcerate doom of man.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Perhaps we could say that 475 nm represents the exact shade while "blue" refers to a range of potential shades. Both are descriptors of characteristics in appearance of the object, but neither defines the object other than to describe a method of identifying one object from another.

    As to whether characteristics are inherent or perceived, if the purpose of a characteristic is to differentiate one instance of an object from another, are we not really arguing the need for identification in the first place? If there is only one object of a particular type, the primary purpose in describing it as blue to would be to help another individual identify and characterize the instance of that object with which he/she is not familiar or to standardize a frame of reference, would it not?

    To me, blue is not a unit - blue is an attribute. One can not have two units of "blue".
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  • Posted by dbhalling 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    At the time Rand was writing there was big linguistics philosophical movement. I don't pretend to understand all their points, but one of them was essentially that language shapes the world. I would say language is a tool for understanding the world.
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  • Posted by $ minniepuck 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    okay, that's a good explanation. thank you. i kept asking myself if the explanations in the book couldn't have been said in a simpler way.
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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    "The most we can say is that length — specifically, wavelength — seems to CORRELATE with the subjective experience we call color,…"

    The wavelength of the photons which we call blue cluster around 475 nanometers (nm). If I take a picture of a blue object, are you asserting that the object has no color until it is observed? Is my camera subjective? Or is it the case that 475 nm and blue are merely two different expressions of the same objective unit?
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  • Posted by dbhalling 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I do not believe that Rand was saying all knowledge has to be measurable in a mathematical sense. For instance, much of biology is about classification without measurement.

    I think Rand's statement about math is overly narrow. She is only concerned with measurement. This field of science is call Metrology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrology.

    Mathematics is about building pure logical systems. For instance, Euclidean geometry is about the logical system built on the idea that two parallel lines go on forever and do not intersect (actually there are 3 assumptions). Algebra is based on the assumption that A=A among others http://library.thinkquest.org/2647/algeb...
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  • Posted by dbhalling 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I think Rand's point, perhaps not well articulated, was that the category (unit) of dogs is not arbitrary it is based on reality. Dogs are mammals, they walk on four legs, etc. Words (units) have no meaning if they are not based on reality. She is trying to avoid the Alice in Wonderland idea that words mean whatever I want them to mean. If the word dog could include clouds, water, dogs, bacteria, it would have no meaning and not be based in reality.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't necessarily agree that knowledge is the science of measurements, more it is the understanding of relationships. In object-oriented programming, you have two principle constructs: objects and methods. Objects exist and have certain characteristics that are used to define them and to separate one instance of an object from another. Methods are the rules that govern how objects interact with each other. To me, "knowledge" means a fundamental and granular understanding of an object and its methods of interaction. Complete knowledge of one object is total identification and comprehension of that object's attributes and all methods by which one may interact with it or by which it may interact with other objects. Thus with total knowledge of an object, one may infer its behavior in a given set of circumstances.

    Science to me is a method of identifying object attributes and the methods between related objects - related meaning that one object may exercise a method to affect another object. Mathematics is the study of methods - how much force must be applied to move an object, quantifying the effects of gravity based on the masses of two objects, the relationships of the sides and angles of a triangle, etc. Mathematics attempts to define the inputs and outputs of a given interaction (thus the equals sign).

    In theory, even emotions could be quantized into mathematical relationships. The challenge is the sheer number of variables involved, the rapidity of change of the variables' values, and the range of behaviors that can be elicited as a result. The complexity involved in deriving such a model exceeds even climate change and turbulence studies in its computing requirements.
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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 12 years, 1 month ago
    Blah blah blah. George Carlin: "What’s the difference between a drop and a droplet? After all, if you divide a drop into smaller parts, all you really get is smaller drops. Big or little, a drop is a drop. Same thing with a crumb. But the odd thing about a crumb is that if you cut a crumb in half, you don’t get two half-crumbs, you get two crumbs."

    I appreciate the reductionist tendencies of "philosophers" but at some point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in and it becomes a process without a worthwhile product.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    VERY nicely explained.

    A corollary to this would can be found in the works of CS Lewis when he talks about the English language and how many people confuse the "being" verbs to indicate action rather than a state. It's been a while since I read it, but I believe that "The Problem of Pain" is the one I am after. The example he gives is in using statements such as "I am hungry" or "I am cold" when in fact you are neither. You are in reality affected by the cold or affected by hunger, but neither of these effects has changed your core being. They are semantics of language, but important semantics. We are not equivalent to our feelings nor are we a sum of them. We exist independent of our feelings, but we may allow our feelings to drive decisions.
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  • Posted by EconomicFreedom 12 years, 1 month ago
    Part I.

    I have long thought that the epistemology is the weakest part of Objectivism, and the weakest part of that weakest part is the notion of "unit," which is the heart of Rand's theory of concepts. If her ideas on "unit" fall, so does her theory of concepts.

    Rand defines "unit" as follows:

    (1) "A unit is an existent regarded as a separate member of a group of two or more similar members. (Two stones are two units; so are two square feet of ground, if regarded as distinct parts of a continuous stretch of ground.)"

    As I'll show in finer detail below, there is already a problem with this definition and with the two examples she gives, i.e., two stones and two square feet of ground, each one, in her view, being "two units of something."

    Continuing:

    Rand asserts that a "unit" is an existent — an existent regarded as a separate member of a group of two or more similar members, but an existent nevertheless. So let us look at how she defines existent:


    (2) "The building-block of man's knowledge is the concept of an 'existent', of something that exists, be it a thing, an attribute or an action."

    Putting definitions (1) and (2) together, we have:

    A "unit" is a thing, an attribute of a thing, or an action performed by a thing.

    Before proceeding, I'd like to point out that this is already mistaken.

    A "unit" is not a thing; it is not an attribute of a thing; and it is not an action performed by a thing.

    Take, for example, a lead ball. "Mass" is certainly one of its attributes. But the unit "1 kilogram" as a way of measuring its mass exists in consciousness, not in the lead ball: without consciousness there might, indeed, be lead balls, but there are no "units". Without consciousness, "lead" exists, but "gram" does not. Without consciousness, "lead" exists, but the unit number — "1" — does not.

    Using Aristotle's "Categoriae" as a reference, we can say that a "unit" is not a thing — not a "substance", as Aristotle would have understood that term — but rather, it falls under the category of "relation", and a relation among three things: the "whole" attribute of an entity (i.e., the entity's whole mass, the entity's whole weight, the entity's whole length, etc.); a "part" of that attribute (some division of mass, weight, length, etc.); and the mental act of comparing that PART to the WHOLE by naming the part "1".

    So we need three things for a "unit": The whole of some attribute; a part of that attribute; the mental act of mathematically comparing the part to the whole by calling the part "1" plus a name: thus, we have the whole of mass of some entity; we arbitrarily take a part of that whole and call it "1" + the name "gram". We can now use that part to compare to other entities with the same attribute of mass. We have the whole length of something; we arbitrarily take a part of that whole and call it "1" plus the name "inch", and we can use that part for comparison against any other entity that has the whole attribute of length.

    The "part-of-the-whole" relation (known in logic as the "partitive relation") is obviously essential to the idea of "unit." All units are, by definition, 1 part of the whole attribute being measured. There's a simple grammatical substitution test one can do to test if something is really a unit: just put it into a partitive phrase with "of" as the preposition linking the antecedent idea (the part) to the consequent idea (the whole). For example

    "a gram of mass." (a "gram" is one unit of a whole attribute called "mass")
    "a meter of length." (a "meter" is one unit of a whole attribute called "length")
    "a gallon of volume." (a "gallon" is one unit of a whole attribute called "volume")
    etc.

    Of course, we are usually accustomed to substituting the right side of that partitive phrase with the name of the actual substance we are measuring, e.g.,

    "a gram of lead"
    "a meter of rope"
    "a gallon of water"
    etc.

    But notice, it's not really "lead", per se, that we are comparing to the gram, but rather one of lead's attributes, i.e., mass. So to be a real stickler for precision both grammatical and logical, we ought to say, "a gram of mass of lead," and "a meter of length of rope", and "a gallon of volume of water".

    It is, perhaps, all right that we not say this, but we should *think* it, and *mean* it, when we employ the more common constructions of "a gram of lead", etc.
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  • Posted by EconomicFreedom 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Part II.

    Now, if you understand that a unit is always some part of a greater whole attribute that we wish to measure, then it behooves us to ask what, precisely, is the meaning of Miss Rand's assertion that "two stones are two units."

    It makes no sense.

    "Two grams (of mass) of lead" makes sense, because of the parenthetical "of mass" phrase, which tells us that "gram" is itself a little bit of mass given the label of "1". Remember that the test of "unit-ness" is that partitive phrase — the "of ____". If that phrase cannot be completed intelligibly in a sentence, then the meaning of that sentence has nothing to do with "units". We could even put that sentence into the following form for the sake of consistency with Miss Rand's sentence:

    (3) "Two grams (are two units of mass) of lead"


    Returning to Miss Rand's assertion, let's see if we can apply the partitive test by putting it into the same form as (3):

    (4) "Two stones (of ______) are two units (OF WHAT????)"

    A "unit" is always a unit OF SOMETHING.

    So if two stones are two units, what are they units OF?

    Blank out.

    Miss Rand confuses the issue for herself as much as for her readers when she immediately continues that assertion with the following:

    "so are two square feet of ground, if regarded as distinct parts of a continuous stretch of ground."

    Notice, please, that Miss Rand inadvertently makes use of that partitive construction we saw as necessary to all units: "so are two square feet OF ground." The precise construction, of course, should be, "so are two square feet (OF area) of ground."

    Yes, two square feet of area truly are two units of area of ground — and they need not be continuous, by the way: if one square foot is in New York and another square foot is in Beijing, adding the two together still give "two square feet of area".

    But "two stones" are not two units OF anything — they're simply "two stones." They would only be two units OF something of there were a unit called "the stone" by which we measure some other entity that had the attribute of "stone."

    But "stone" is not an attribute of some other entity; a "stone" — as used by Miss Rand in her assertion — is itself an entity.

    There are a number of other problems with Objectivist epistemology, at least as it is expounded in ITOE. I'll mention one more:

    A unit OF something (notice again, please, that all-important partitive construction with "of", showing the part-to-whole relation on which the idea of unit logically rests) must comprise the same attribute as the "whole" one is measuring. In other words, a unit of length must itself be a little bit of length; a unit of mass must itself be a little bit of mass; etc.

    In ITOE, Miss Rand asserts that the unit of color is the wavelength of light (e.g., the angstrom, which is 1/10^10 meter). Putting aside quantum quibbles regarding whether or not light is a wave, it's obvious that wavelength, or the angstrom, is a unit of LENGTH, not of COLOR. To be a true unit of color, the unit itself must have the attribute of "color", just as a unit of mass (e.g., the kilogram) itself has the attribute of mass. "Length" is not the same attribute as "color" and cannot be used as a unit thereof. The most we can say is that length — specifically, wavelength — seems to CORRELATE with the subjective experience we call color, through a complicated process of perception, physiological processing, and cognitive computation; thus a wavelength of X "correlates" with the subjective experience of a color we recognize as "blue." But the "wavelength" and the "blue" are two completely different things, and the former is not a unit of the latter.
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  • Posted by jrberts5 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I think by defining implicit as without qualification helps to clarify and accentuate the primacy of the concept of existence over the concept of identity, so, that works for me.
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  • Posted by 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Forms a good basis for moving forward. I propose we accept them as the working definitions for the discussions.
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  • Posted by $ minniepuck 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    i took implicit to mean that there is no qualification--something that is specifically not explicit. so when she used (implicit) that way, i thought she was saying that this was understood on a perceptual level.

    this is what i wrote down on my notes:
    existence is a concept that man cannot grasp *explicitly* until he's reached the *conceptual stage*. he understands it *implicitly* on the *perceptual* level. it's the implicit knowledge that allows his consciousness to develop.
    explicit - very clear, without a doubt
    implicit - without qualification
    conceptual - based on mental concepts
    perceptual - based on senses

    just my take on it...feel free to correct me or tell me that i didn't understand your question in the first place.
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