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Interesting trends in the Gulch

Posted by $ Susanne 11 years, 3 months ago to Philosophy
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I have been following with (not very) amused intrest how a lot of the conversations here in the Gulch go from their topic subject to either a heated debate about Religion, or, less frequently, a heated debate about Sexuality and Sex. It does wonders to boost a topic's point and post count... but really stinks when you see a good, timely, and interesting topic, go to add or comment, and it's now a theological or psychosexual discussion.

While I do know that Humanity tends to shy away from mental work, and instead default to the base and easy, I was surprised to see this becoming a rising trend here in the Gulch, and rising exponentially over the past 30-60 days.


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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I sure hope he answers this one. I have been wondering myself. Maybe he is our version of Piers Morgan, threatens to leave and then doesn't?
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  • Posted by $ stargeezer 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Exactly right. When God sends a bus your way, don't wave them off saying you're waiting for a airplane.

    Also the reason some hold the doubts of unbelief that keep them believing. They just expect God to do something miraculous, while missing the small still voice that says "I'm here".
    .
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  • Posted by Rocky_Road 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.

    Your discussion with BambiB reminded me of this story:

    An old, and devout, fisherman’s boat sank from under him one day, miles from shore, leaving him floating in the deep water.

    After a while, another boat comes upon him and asks him if he “needs any help”?

    “No, thank you. My God will protect me.”

    After a longer period of time, a second boat comes upon him and offers to help.

    “I appreciate the offer, but I know that God will take care of me.”

    Well, the old fisherman finally drowns, and awakes to find himself in Heaven and face to face with God himself. The first thing that he says is “God…why didn’t you save me?”

    God answers, “What are you talking about? I sent two boats!”

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  • Posted by $ stargeezer 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's very possible to not accept another persons faith without being rude. Sorry you missed that.

    Degrees are from University of IL, mechanical and electrical engineering, University of Texas Civil engineering, Bradly University, IL, Fine Arts degrees in Ceramics and Photography, minored in PoliSi. I'm not sure what that has to do with the subject unless you were expecting something less aspiring?

    I've been a student all of my adult life until the most recent years. Even when I was overseas I took correspondent classes in subjects that held particular interest for me.
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  • Posted by mminnick 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I come from and am a member of the Jewish community. In that community one does not "profane " the lords name by writing it out completely in no religious tests . I know it doesn't necessarily make sense but it is my tradition and I respect and honor it.
    It is a sign of respect unlike the word you were referring to, which is a sign of disrespect and contempt to most people.
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  • Posted by $ stargeezer 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You missed my point or I failed to correctly express myself, most likely the latter. I did not survive because I prayed. I did not escape with not much more than a scratch because I prayed. That machine gun on the shore did not stop shooting because I prayed and God guided my return fire to kill that man. That patrol boat that showed up at just the right time, that was there because they had missed a turn onto another inlet did not show up because I prayed. None of that happened because I prayed. My prayer was not that I would be saved from the horror of that place and time. Here is what you missed, I prayed that Jesus would save my soul, that I accepted him as the sacrifice for the sins of my life. That was all. That is the promise that he gave us all. Not that we would be safe from ordeals or have riches and prosperity in our lives. That's a twisting of scripture if someone tells you that he will give you those things in this life. Not evidence - faith.

    I fully expected to die that day and had I the promise I have is that moment I would be in the heaven I did not deserve and that I would not go to the hell I did deserve.

    That fact that I did survive was just the compilation of a series of events that just happened. Did Gods hand have a part in that, yes, because I believe that nothing happens by accident. Can I go out a drive the wrong way down a one way street and expect his protection? NO. If I did and was killed I would wake up in heaven trying to explain how I could be so foolish.

    You see, it was not an experiment. It was the promise of God, a promise I accepted by faith because he is God and I knew he was. And when the day comes that I do die, my next sight that enters my vision will be in heaven.

    Those who died there and everyone else before and since all have a destination. If they, in your words "tried my experiment" and meant what they were praying, each and every one had their prayer answered. Not with life in this world, but life in the next.

    Yes we are all going to die and until that day comes for me I will be living my life in a manner consistent with his teachings. You now ask how do I know this - that's why it's called faith.
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  • Posted by Rocky_Road 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.

    I disagree.

    I have always believed that 'when our leaders cease to fear God, it is time to fear our leaders'.

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  • Posted by BambiB 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    From my perspective, the most useful thing about religions is it keeps the riffraff from running open loop. If you're convinced that "god is watching" you may be less inclined to rape that woman, mug that grandfather, steal that money.

    But it's a poor basis for policy-making. Anyone who sincerely believes in god may also believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and I really don't want them using their superstitions as a basis for how I must interact with my government.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm fond of saying charity isn't charity if its taxed or compelled from you. God aside, self-interest is a genuine expression of who you are and what you value.
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  • Posted by BambiB 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Concur. Just as no one is ever likely to present convincing evidence that god exists, so no is likely to prove god does not exist. To me, the only rational approach is to acknowledge that we do not know, probably cannot know (and by "know" I don't mean "have a feeling about", but actually KNOW) whether there is a god. All we can say with certainty is that most people alive today are wrong, and most humans probably didn't share any of your religious beliefs.

    How do I know that? If you divide the universe of religions into N mutually-exclusive categories, then anyone who believes in one of those N religions CANNOT by definition, believe in any of the others. If Buddhism is incompatible with Lutheranism, you cannot believe in both at the same time. If religion X is correct, then every other incompatible religion must, by definition, be wrong. So right off the bat we know that at least 70% of all the humans alive today are wrong in their religious beliefs.

    Christianity is the world's most "popular" religion, followed by islam. In third spot we find, "No relgious affilitiation. But even christianity only tops out at less than 1 in 3 among the living, and we know that the vast majority of humans never believed in it because... well, it didn't exist while they were alive. At a "guesstimate" less than 5% of people have ever believed in christianity, and the numbers are worse for other modern religions. It's more likely that more people throughout history have believed in simple superstitions... like sacrificing animals to the "gods" of lightning (while cowering in their caves)... or perhaps they never even conceived of such a thing as a "god". Seriously, if you had not been "programmed" (taught) about the possible existence of a diety... would the idea have ever occurred to you independently? Was your expectation of god seeded by the comments of others, or did you arrive at it on your own? Maybe the only thing that has given us this on-going disease of anti-rationality is that the written word has made it more enduring? That no one comes to the table with a clean slate. That everyone is poisoned with the "idea" of god before they're able to think for themselves?

    Whatever religion is true (if there be such a thing), it is followed by a minority of humans. Further, depending on the age of the religion, billions of people died before the religion was even created. An estimated 46 billion people had died before Jesus was even a gleam in Mary's eye. Another 12 billion or so died waiting for Mohammed to arrive. Something like 78 billion people were already dead when Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of All Saints' Church in Wittenberg. So, in most cases, more people died before the religions were even invented than were ever around to believe in them.

    Which kind of calls into question the whole purpose of religion... and why your particular flavor wasn't around for the majority of humans.
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  • Posted by rlewellen 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This is not related to the original post, We can debate this til we are blue in the face. There is no point because it is not related to the original discussion. I am a Christian and we talked about this earlier. Posts become unreasonably long because they drift away from the original content. This seems like a good thing to start a new discussion about.
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  • -3
    Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The hell it isn't!
    Hm... in recent memory, what countries, rightly or wrongly, considered themselves "Christian", and which ones considered themselves "atheist"?

    The Soviet Union et al were not self-proclaimed Christian nations, but self-proclaimed *atheist* nations.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    And AR has nothing to do with Christianity because Christianity would condemn her despotic lifestyle. Not a lot of respect for self-serving philosophies.
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  • -1
    Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "In God We Trust" has nothing to do with Christianity, either.

    Without God, there's no such thing as "natural rights", there is only power and action. I have the "right" to make you my slave... if I have the power to do so. Is it right? Is it moral? Perfectly, according to natural laws derived from the laws of physics.

    Are pilot fish and leeches immoral? No, they're perfectly moral, in spite of Objectivism proclaiming that taking from another without giving in return is "immoral", or a violation of "rights".

    Without a supreme deity to confer "rights", the only "rights" you can have are those granted you by those of your peers, equals, who have more power than you have.

    Our country was founded, in fact, upon the principle of individual *liberty*. To suggest that the creators of the country were not *culturally* Christian is either naive or willfully obtuse.

    And the Founding Fathers, in the DoI, referred to God; "...endowed by their Creator with certain, inalienable rights". Was this the Moslem concept of God? The Hindu concept of God? Again, these men were culturally Christian.
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  • Posted by AKnightsLife 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I see you now changed it to Christianity - and your wrong - it was as all of our founding fathers schooling from children through college were based on the precepts and concepts of Christian thinking and Ben Franklin remarked to all those in assembly to create the constitution that they would have more wisdom in drafting the constitution if they all invoked God in Prayer and as one they together - though different in their denominational up bringing's - all prayed together to ask God for His Wisdom - also all government meetings were led and opened in Prayer to The Living God of The Bible (aka: Christianity Guide Book) in those days -Thomas Jefferson and all other rational founding fathers all had the same belief and said so that this country would only stay in tact through following The Bible - I do suggest you read their history of their upbringing in order to know the facts and therefore to objectively speak out - also you have not answered my initial questions to you in my first post - I am waiting -
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  • Posted by BambiB 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't get the whole G-d thing. Is that like "the n-word" or "the f-word"?
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  • Posted by BambiB 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So, let me get this straight… God makes up all the rules. And so he creates rules that say unless you believe, you're damned. But he doesn't give anyone a RATIONAL way to believe. The very act of "faith" is an abandonment of rational thought.

    Isn't Rand basically rational? Philosophically, how is that compatible with religion at all (the "anti-rational")? Sure, both may reach the same conclusions on case-by-case bases… but the motivations are different, and in some cases, the conclusions may be diametrically opposed.

    So which do you choose? The rational Rand? Or the irrational religion?
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