Drawing a line.

Posted by Laddius_Maximus 12 years, 2 months ago to Business
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So as I understand it, Ayn Rand advocated small government and having them stay completely out of business. Laissez-faire? Or do I have the wrong idea. This would foster more competition and bring down prices for all. But doesn't this idea only work if the corporations are ethical? If they always do the right thing? I don't mean social ethics but in terms of not polluting the environment,(BP) or making food that makes us sick. (monsanto) How do you make sure these companies operate as they are supposed to? I know I'm not phrasing this question correctly because I feel government should shrink and get the hell out of the way, but where does the line get drawn? Where does regulation and oversight become infringement and collusion?


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  • Posted by ccandd96 12 years, 2 months ago
    I have a "Capitalist Inside" image (like the Intel inside logo) on my car, and people look at that and think it's something awful. It is sad that my husband came up with the term "moral capitalism", because many places/companies say they support capitalism, but they treat their employees like crap and reap too many benefits by hurting too many others. They're not being morally capitalistic, and they don't have to worry about it, because nobody checks their premises and shows them the error in their ways.

    A poet friend I know used to have quotes in his email signature, an once he put his own name to the quote "Ayn Rand was wrong." And that is when I had to write him back and say that some people in the past decade may lay claim to some of her ideas, but not all of them. I also told him that any philosophy would work if absolutely everyone in the society supported it whole-heartedly.
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  • Posted by atoms 12 years, 2 months ago
    L. Maximus, in order for the collective to win over the majority of the humans they enslave, they have to discredit the individual. But what makes humans cool is that individuals are motivated to succeed. I'm not living in a vacuum, I understand that in this world government needs to police excesses. efficiently. You will find, should the time ever come, that if the government plays fair with the individual the individuals will make a world that is not corrupt. Corruption is not how we roll.
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  • Posted by Signofthedollar 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What you need is a medium of exchange that has a intrinsic value that does not change. It is call money. Unfortunately, we do not have "real money" what we have a system of checks (notice that all US currency is are signed) that is backed up by the good name of the state which issued it. Its value is relative not objective. So how can you know "what truly has value" when the medium of exchange is internal to the system not external.
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  • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The Apple corporation is using the government to limit its competition, which is immoral and not possible in a laissez faire government. I agree integrity shouldn't be decided by democracy, it should be decided by the individual, or the owner(s) of the business. As for Ben and Jerry's as long as they aren't spending their profits on buying government favors I'm not concerned with where they spend their money, it's theirs. I don't think you would support the government enforcing its version of integrity, so I would like to ask who? Also I should clarify in my post that a business isn't bound to follow the ethics of its consumers, but they would be more successful if they did.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    not always. I will use Apple as an example. Most people are uninformed about intellectual property rights. Both Jobs and Gates have said that the thing they fear most is a person creating something in their garage-exactly how they both started. Apple is wildly popular. Behind the scenes they have used their crony status to lobby against inventors. Here is the result of their efforts. AIA passed in 2011. It changed the CONSTITUTION-which was clear about the rights of inventors. Now, an inventor legally is the first one to file a patent application. For 200 years, the rule was an inventor was the inventor.
    so, I disagree with your statement.
    Plenty of people LOVE Ben and Jerry's. Support their company. go look at where they put their profits. Integrity should not be decided by a democracy
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I gave a point, but I disagree. corporations are limited liability. without them, people would not invest in high risk ventures. People would not invest, we, as a nation would be poorer.
    Look at spice trade 1600s. would not have happened without corporate structures. Semiconductors, computers, electrical power(initially), trains, planes, etc
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    good point.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. " Ben Franklin, 1757
    watch the rules. One should not have to go out of their way to prove safety to EVERYONE's satisfaction, before they may take action. They remain liable for their actions
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  • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 2 months ago
    When it comes to a business's "ethical" decisions you have to remember that society dictates them, especially in a laissez-faire capitalist economy. If a corporation wants to stay in business it can't piss off its customers everyday. If all they want is your money, which I would state that they should, they have to balance efficiency, safety and their consumers opinions about them. People vote with their money. So if your asking which ethics a company should follow you have to look to the ones the consumers are following.
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  • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Humans do a lot of things you couldn't call safe in the name of discovery and invention. Riding a home made wooden frame into the sky on a motor is totally not safe, but now we fly planes every where. You have to start somewhere.
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  • Posted by 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    True we have been manipulating plants and animals for centuries. But what about plants that have been engineered to produce pesticides naturally. Is that safe?
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  • Posted by Ed75 12 years, 2 months ago
    Corporations would not exist in a truly Laissez-faire economy. They are a legal creation of our mixed economy and would not be necessary in a non-government business. Free competition would be the regulator.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Everyone is driven by their own self interest (selfishness). You are right to point out that most do not understand or admit this. Without it we would never have developed beyond the level of other animals on earth.
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  • Posted by overmanwarrior 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    These are the questions everyone is asking, so they are very good. I answered a bit above, and I will do so in a larger degree as time provides. Debate is good, so don't feel bad about it. It's how we get to the truth.
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  • Posted by flanap 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I guess one could reason that nothing we do is motivated by anything other than selfishness, assume we are the one determining to do it.

    Let's look at an often vilified group of people called Christians. They are vilified primarily because they assert they have the Truth and either you follow it or there is literal hell to pay. Simple enough.

    They assert there is a personal God that communicated all we need to know about Him, and man's relation to Him, in a book called the Bible. They also assert the highest command is to love (love defined by God in the Bible, not man's definition) that God with everything a man can offer from his external and internal being. And, say you become a Christian as prescribed in the Bible, then there are additional commands which emphasize considering other more important than yourself, servant leadership, etc......(you get the drift).

    Now, you have to decide what you will do about the Christian assertions, same as you do about many other religions who have assertions, assuming you become aware of them. The question is: are your decisions about Christianity motivated out of anything than what is the relation of that decision to yourself? You may think you are making a decision to please God; however, what if God is pleased by your decision to following His Son Jesus Christ? Isn't being saved from an eternity in fiery hell a selfish decision to believe in Christ? What about when you decide to love your neighbor as yourself? Are you not motivated by the rewards God has for you in heaven for helping your neighbor as one of His children? The Christian God knows that man is a selfish being and that is why there are promises of rewards for all who following Him, and it is in man's nature to offer the same to our children, as well as discipline them when they are out of line (whatever that discipline may look like).

    I say all this to state that Ms.Rand didn't happen onto a novel concept of selfishness, but of course it was highly unpopular to state what everyone already does. Unfortunate, few are honest enough with themselves to admit they are selfish about every decision.
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Welcome to the club! Nobody here has all the information, and even when you get answers to your questions - of course they can be wrong or incomplete. Ask questions, get answers, think on them, accept or reject, and possibly improve on! That's the fun of being in here. We try to think things through.
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  • Posted by $ Mimi 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No, we are not. I used ants to try to provide a simple comparison and example that selfishness works for the good of the collective in the natural world. You want a real example?
    One of the most epitomized and uplifting legacies of the african-american struggle prior to the Civil War was Harriet Tubman, who risk her life by traveling back into the southern states thirteen times to rescue over seventy slaves. In recent years, through scholarly research, it has been learned every slave she was involved with rescuing was related to her. Does that make her efforts any less heroic? First, she freed herself, then she helped free the slaves that mattered to her. She was selfishly motivated.
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  • Posted by 12 years, 2 months ago
    All of you are hitting a very important failing of mine which is lack of information. I don't have all the facts and lets be honest, made a lot of half-assed suppositions on at worse false or at least misguided information. It is very obvious I have a lot to learn and I thank everybody for the insights. Keep them coming any and all information is very much welcome.
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  • Posted by overmanwarrior 12 years, 2 months ago
    Companies would be regulated by the value of their reputation. That may seem like a crazy idea these days because the intent of the modern age is to devalue everything so that nobody has more value than another. But once upon a time, if a company behaved in a "bad" way, society would hold that against them and they would find themselves out of business. The many myths of terrible stories so common today about business is from government agencies trying to justify their jobs. Many more terrors are caused by the devaluation of society in general than the tendency of some companies to take short cuts to undercut their competition. Good guys win in such rivaleries because good has value. But in a world where value is not the calibration, then it is those who can have "pull" who come out on top, which creates the corruption.
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  • Posted by Lucky 12 years, 2 months ago
    Re BP polluting the environment:
    It turned out to be contractor, but yes BP was responsible for that choice. They can in turn sue that contractor.
    If there were no environmental protection laws, then the polluter could be sued for damage to property, but only if there are laws permitting and recognizing property.
    You could say well the sea is not private property, but people do use the sea for travel, fishing, etc. Polluting the sea would reduce amenities and rights, which are a form of property.
    There are libertarian views (e.g. Murray Rothbard) that say the state can go completely. I have not thought these thru so I am still with Rand's objectivism - 'there is government but there is not much of it'.
    I agree, with your last point, it is hard to define the correct place for the line. Trouble is, where-ever the line is put, there seem to be irresistible pressures to move it more left.
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  • Posted by Lucky 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am fairly sure that there are no such test results. I am aware of malicious rumors about GM that have been exposed. GM has been used for hundreds of years or longer, all selection of seeds or selection of fatter animals for breeding is GM, it is just that modern techniques are faster.
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